Spray...LOTSO pics

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Someone was asking about spray welding.  I told them I would do it today and post pics.  I got a little carried away and had some fun.  I took 88 pics.  Here are some of them.Plate is 1/2" A36 or 572, I am not sure, the plate was left from a job.  I cut it on an indiscriminate angle with the plasma to do a groove weld and later did a fillet.  For the groove weld, I used .030 wire.  Gas was 92% argon and 8% Co2.  LN-25 wire feeder and invertec v350 Pro.  This whole "job" took me a good part of the morning on and off.  I had a ball and learned quite a bit.In the beginning:I left a 1/8" root face so I didn't burn through or weld it to the bench.I butted the pieces together touching where they could.  First I wanted to see how low I could go.  anything below 450 ipm or 150 amps would not give a true spray, more of a globular transfer.  SO first pass was at 450 ipm.  I only welded 1/2 of the groove because penatration was not what I was looking for.Then I turned it up to 700 ipm , as fast as the feeder would go and finished the first pass.  This was much better.These were the settings for 450 ipm.Last edited by David R; 11-07-2007 at 07:25 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:And these were the settings for 700 ipm.Here is the back side.  I did not burn through or even come close.  You can see the heat towards the end of the piece.Here is the second pass.  And a close up of the second passReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Very nice, awesome penetration.Miller Syncrowave 200Hobart Handler 140Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38E-Z Tube BenderPlasma Cam DHC2
Reply:Then I did a T joint or 2 fillet welds.  First one was same settings, second side was .045 wire, 400 ipm.  LOTSA Power!Here is the prepI put pieces of .030 wire under the T joint so I could shirly (  ) see the penetration once I cut it apart.Now for the first passHere is the first pass cleaned up with a wire wheelThen I got out the .045 wire and cranked it up a little more.  Not a lot more voltage needed, but the amps really went up.  Now its getting funHere are the settings for the .045 wireSee where the knob is?  I have a lot more left!Last edited by David R; 11-07-2007 at 07:51 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Next I cut it apart on the band saw and cleaned it up.  I used a flap disk, then some 150 emery, then some 600.  I sprayed it with Eagle One aluminum wheel etching stuff.  Its what I use to clean the aluminum bed on my truck in the aviator.  I was surprised how well it worked.On the T joint, the left side is .045 wire, right side is .030.  ONE pass on each side.And the groove jointThanks for watching David Last edited by David R; 11-07-2007 at 08:06 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Great pics David. Especially the T-joint penetration pics!!
Reply:Very nice looking welds David R.Not a bad looking welder either!Miller Thunderbolt 225Millermatic 130 XPLincoln HD 100 Forney C-5bt Arc welderPlasma Cutter Gianteach Cut40ACent Machinery Bandsaw Cent Machinery 16Speed Drill PressChicago Electric 130amp tig/90 ArcHobart 190 Mig spoolgun ready
Reply:I think you'd find that it will weld better and tend to undercut less if you clean the millscale from the weld area.  Love the spray..it's really nice, compared to short arc.Guys, notice something...no spatter!!
Reply:Hey David R,Great post. I do a lot of spray also in both steel & aluminum, depending on the project. This post is a nice primer for those "newbies" and those with limited MIG experience to see the power of MIG and the penetration. You know, the sound of that smooth "bacon sizzle" is quite distinct with S/C MIG and generally the welds are quite sound and aesthetic. The sound of spray is a new & different world to those who have never tried it or have the power needed to achieve spray. The welds are so smooth and looking at the molten puddle is where you can really see the power of depth & penetration. I like to do it with my spoolgun unit.....have you tried spray with a spoolgun yet???? Try it....you'll like it.Anyway, thanks for the post & pics and the enlightenment to those who need to try it if they have the power and never did it.....DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Cant remember did you mention stick-out?   needs to be 3/4" from work tube to work piece.Also mention the unmistakable hiss sound ...lets you know your getting it right weld it like you own it
Reply:I also assume your talking GMAW.........right?  Oh yeah be sure to mention the different nozzel size to allow the tip to stickout 1/8"Last edited by lewray; 11-07-2007 at 08:45 PM. weld it like you own it
Reply:Nice post David..Just imagine the penetration if the mill scale (as per engloids suggestion) and if the pieces were beveled before welding on the "T" weld??? Nice stuff!...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I did some spray welding today on some weld casing collars, 1/4 plate butt joints.  I got almost full penetration in single pass around 250 amps with .045 wire at 520IPM.Its def more fun than lower amp welding.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:Good informative post!! David, do you think my Miller 180 with .030 wire is getting close to spray mode when cranked up? I guess I will have plenty of time to practice; I am headed back up to Watsonville for the other half of the raceboat mold. I'll mess up some stuff and take pics for sure.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:AWESOME!!!! thanks David. i appreciate it. this really clears things up. i was under the impression (for a short time) that spray transfer woudl not give very good penetration due to increased travel speed, however i never thought about the incresed heat. i'm not sure why... i jsut didn't think about it. hopefully the following questions will be the last ones for a while (i know my excessive questions are bothering some people)...1.) what gas did you use and what was it set to?2.) how does travel speed differ between spray and globular? i would assume much faster due to incresed wire feed speed.now i know how small and pathetic my little welder is. i knew it was tiny, but the LE you used for that is a massive beast. i want one now. i thought i woudl try to get a TIG next, or possibly a plasma torch, but now i may ahve to look into a big-@$$ed MIG.thanks again!later,Andy
Reply:David,Nice pics!!    Also nice write-up, and nice job with the dissection to show the weld penetration.   Newbies, take note.  Even with all the power that David was putting into those welds, notice how clean and smooth they are.  No spatter, no jumbly ripples or craters.  Just smooth welds.  But also notice that with all the power he was putting into those welds, that he didn't get complete penetration in a single pass!  Granted, he was just doing a quick (Hah!) demonstration for our benefit, but notice that the lack of full proper joint prep (cleaning to bare metal and proper beveling of larger joints) had an effect on the level of penetration.The butt weld had a half-way prepped joint, and even then he needed to go back to the other side of the weld and run a pass on the back to get full penetration.The T-joint fillet welds had no bevel prep done, and notice that the penetration was certainly broad enough across the throat of the weld fillet but was less than halfway into the vertical plate and was pretty shallow into the base plate!Andy. see his first post.  He told us the gas was 92% argon and 8% CO2.   Again, thanks David!
Reply:To all of you, I did grind the mill scale off both pieces for the T Joint.  If you look at the pic with the wires laying on it you can see the grinder marks and if you look at the pic with the piece of soapstone on it, you can just barely see the grinder marks on the other piece.  Spray needs clean like tig.  If it runs into "stuff" it will crackle or go from spray back to short and back to spray again.  Its gotta be real clean.  For the complete penetration,  If both sides were welded with the .045 wire, it would have been a sound weld.  The one you see on the left did not make it 1/2 way into the top plate, but it was a 1/2" fillet which is what is needed for 1/2" plate.  The cross section of the weld  joins the two pieces to make them one.  What is missing in the center is made up for on the outside.  The weld on the right side of the T was a little wimpy, but all she had with the .030 wire.Edit:  Book sez a weld should be as wide as it is deep.  On the Butt joint, If I had spaced the pieces out 1/8", I think it would have got full penetration.   I didn't want to weld the piece to the bench.  Still not bad for 2 passes on 1/2" plate.Stickout was 3/4 to 1".  Some where in there.  What ever made the arc work best. I did have to use a bigger gas cone than usual.  It was 5/8".  Gas was set around 25 to 30 cfh.I had a blast doing this and learned a few things my self.  That is the first time I ever etched a weld.I did have one problem, I forgot to use one size bigger contact tip.  Getting near the end of the welds I could feel the .030 wire binding in the contact tip.  The .045 would not make the full length of the weld with out binding up.  The wire must heat up inside the tip and cause it to bind.  I have to use one size bigger tip to spray aluminum too.Some one mentioned undercut, there is none.  If there was, I would have done it over. Thanks for the complimentsDavidLast edited by David R; 11-08-2007 at 06:22 AM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by RojodiabloGood informative post!! David, do you think my Miller 180 with .030 wire is getting close to spray mode when cranked up? I guess I will have plenty of time to practice; I am headed back up to Watsonville for the other half of the raceboat mold. I'll mess up some stuff and take pics for sure.
Reply:Originally Posted by aczellerAWESOME!!!! thanks David.
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseDavid,But also notice that with all the power he was putting into those welds, that he didn't get complete penetration in a single pass!  Granted, he was just doing a quick (Hah!) demonstration for our benefit, but notice that the lack of full proper joint prep (cleaning to bare metal and proper beveling of larger joints) had an effect on the level of penetration.Again, thanks David!
Reply:If you look close, you can see I ground the mill scale off.Here it might be easier to show no underdcut.  AWS allows 1/32", I see 0" Last edited by David R; 11-08-2007 at 04:40 AM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:There is no such thing as a perfect weld, every weld has undercut even if you can't see it with the naked eye. Take a microscope and you'll see it. --Gol'
Reply:No claim to be perfect.   Just this time it came out pretty good for me.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:[QUOTE=David R]Here it might be easier to show no underdcut.  AWS allows 1/32", I see 0" Yeah you did "0"  every weld has undercut. --Gol'
Reply:Nice demonstration of spray MIG, and great cross section photos.Thank you.For those not familiar with spray and pulsed spray, notice that it takes 30+ volts to spray with a conventional power supply, and the weld is so hot and fluid it is limited to flat positon and horizontal position.  For comparison, a pulsed MIG power supply can achieve a similar, smooth, minimal spatter weld, in all positions, because the voltage can be held down around 24 volts.Something else to think about, as it may not be apparent to beginners, but notice the deep penetration of the fillet weld into the vertical member of the "T" joint.  It penetrates about 1/4 of the plate thickness!For your basic fillet weld, where only a "leg size" is specified, it is not required to penetrate beyond the surface of the plate, as long as there is complete fusion to the surface of the plate.  Leg size is the basically the horizontal and vertical legs of a right (90 deg.) triangle that would fit within the fillet weld cross section.I'm not saying that penetrating deep into the root of the "T" joint is bad, or that it will not increase the strength of the joint, only that with your basic fillet weld, the leg size will be specified and complete fusion to the plate is required, any more penetration is not required unless specified on the drawings.
Reply:Originally Posted by pulserSomething else to think about, as it may not be apparent to beginners, but notice the deep penetration of the fillet weld into the vertical member of the "T" joint.  It penetrates about 1/4 of the plate thickness!For your basic fillet weld, where only a "leg size" is specified, it is not required to penetrate beyond the surface of the plate, as long as there is complete fusion to the surface of the plate.  Leg size is the basically the horizontal and vertical legs of a right (90 deg.) triangle that would fit within the fillet weld cross section.I'm not saying that penetrating deep into the root of the "T" joint is bad, or that it will not increase the strength of the joint, only that with your basic fillet weld, the leg size will be specified and complete fusion to the plate is required, any more penetration is not required unless specified on the drawings.