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I wanted to see if 98% argon, 2% Oxygen would short circuit.Wire .045 150 ipm all about 150 amps.First a stringer, then a weave below it.First is the 98/2 17 voltsThen C/25 18.5 voltsThen 92% Argon, 8% Co2 16.7 voltsThen pure argon @ 15.4 volts to get some kind of consistent arc. Sorry for the blurry pics. I must have got too close.Plate was 1/4"I conclude I can't weld with pure argon.David Last edited by David R; 11-28-2007 at 07:20 PM.Real world weldin. When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:90/10 is really all you can go in short circuit...as you found out. That 75/25 bead sure is purty though !!Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:Now that you made such a nice job,...would it be too hard to cut them so we can see penetration?My Babies: HF Drill pressHF Pipe Bender3 4.5" Black and Decker angle grindersLincoln Electric PROMIG 175that´s it!
Reply:I will pass this time, as I used more Co2, the penetration was better. The 98/2 didn't penetrate hardly at all. Pure argon would not even weld. You can also see the more the Co2 I used, the more volts needed to get a good steady arc.Pics are in the book of Argon, C/25 and Co2. I'll post those if you like thanks for lookingDavid Real world weldin. When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Thanks for trying David, now we all know, without me just making a statement. John G.SMAW,GMAW,FCAW,GTAW,SAW,PAC/PAW/OFCand Shielding Gases. There all here. :
Reply:I have 0 expiriance with 98/2 I understand it just gives extra heat to the weld. As for using 100% argon that is all I use. I do not have room to cary anymore bottles in my truck so I just cary 2 argon botles and I TIG MIG and pulse MIG with it and get great welds and good penitration in all metals. My MIG is a Miller Matic 350P so I got power to burn but the weld penitration is great and it leavs a very clean weld. Steel Thunder Welding LLC. St. Thomas VI USAMM350PBOBCAT 3MAXSTAR 150 STH375 EXTREME PLASMA6.5 HP COMPRESORDEWALT 18, 24, AND 36 VOLTO/A TORCH SETAND SO MUCH MORE I DONT REMEMBERALL IN MY 2005 2500HD EXTENDED CAB L/B
Reply:Originally Posted by offrdfun73I have 0 expiriance with 98/2 I understand it just gives extra heat to the weld. As for using 100% argon that is all I use. I do not have room to cary anymore bottles in my truck so I just cary 2 argon botles and I TIG MIG and pulse MIG with it and get great welds and good penitration in all metals. My MIG is a Miller Matic 350P so I got power to burn but the weld penitration is great and it leavs a very clean weld.
Reply:I use 100% argon to spray-arc aluminum and that works great. For steel though, 100% argon made spatterless but cold welds using short-arc. The beads did not appear to have good adhesion at the toes. I had to turn the volts way up to get any kind of descent weld. Just my opinion, but I would not use it for steel short-arc, at least not on anything much thicker than sheet metal anyways, especially not with a typical MIG found in a home shop (usually 200 amps and less). Maybe it works for sheetmetal?Argon/CO2 in 75/25 and 85/15 mixes works better for steel short-arc. The 85/15 seems to spatter a little less than the 75/25.I'm more interested in good gas mixes for spray-arc that can be used below 200 amps on steel from 1/8" to 1/4" thick, which is most of the MIG welding I do here at home. I have pulse available to help this happen, if need be. I like the spatter-free welds I get from spray-arc with aluminum and would like to see that with my steel welds too. I'm thinking argon/oxygen in 98/2 or 95/5 might do it?MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Desert, the reason 85/15 Short arcs better, because of the increae in argon. Argon has a better arc transfer and also allows you to get the wire into a true spray. Reason: You cannot get wire into a true sprqy with more than 15% co2 in a mixture. Most foreign procedures and company's use 86/14 ar/CO2 for their standard shielding gas. Also 98/2 is the best Spray arc for most steel applications, because oxygen adds heat to the arc and more oxidation in the puddle and without the correct wire can causes porosity. Hope this is some help. JohnSMAW,GMAW,FCAW,GTAW,SAW,PAC/PAW/OFCand Shielding Gases. There all here. :
Reply:I have been using 92/8 (Ar/Co2) for short arc and spray. Short arc is great, bead is pretty flat, penetration is not as good as C/25, but close. I can adjust inductance and that helps get the best arc. I use pure Co2 on the road most of the time because the convince and I can turn the flow way up with out breaking the bank. Tanks are small and go a long time. I put the inductance on 10 on my ranger 250. I get little spatter and great penetration.Only my experience. I have tried to weld with pure argon before with no luck unless it was on thin sheet with the SP 100. If I had a choice between Argon or Co2, Co2 would be my choice every time.If you want I will TRY to weld with pure argon, cut it apart and etch it. You will see penetration is really shallow.DavidReal world weldin. When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Yeah I like the 92 /8 mix too.Good picsNow I would like to have somebody show me how to create a "mixer"I have been a bit lazy trying to look it up;however, no info found yet.........Hint hint LOL weld it like you own it
Reply:Thanks for the help guys! I'm still a bit undecided, should I use 98/2 Ar/O2, or 92/8 Ar/CO2 for spray steel, 1/8" - 1/4", keeping in mind I only have a 200 amp machine avaiable here at the garage?I have 75/25 and 85/15 tanks here at the garage for MIG-short and I dont mind getting an extra tank of 98/2 for spray if that is the best mix for just spray. Is this a good plan? Since I have 2 MIGs available here, I'm thinking I will set up the HTP MIG200 as the spray machine and use the Millermatic 175 as the short-arc machine. I'm wondering if I should find a way to hook up one of these pulsers here (MK Pulse+) to the HTP to help it spray? Neither of these machines has an inductance control, but the HTP machine seems to have a softer arc than the Millermatic. Now is when I wish that PowCon (300SM) was still working, I have a special pulser for that machine that connects with no hassles and the PowCon has a spray mode selector and variable puddle control right on the front panel. I think the PowCon has some contactor problem though, it keeps switching on and off rapidly when in either of the mig modes but welds fine for stick. The higher I turn up the voltage, the faster the output keeps switching. The problem is in the power supply as it does this whether I have the pulser connected or not, also regardless of which feeder or torch I have it connected to. It used to spray aluminum very nicely when it was working and I had it connected to the Cobramatic feeder.--------------------------------------------------------------------------In a seperate, but related issue, if 92/8 (Ar/CO2) can do both spray and short reasonably well to be able to carry only that mix on the truck for use with the Millermatic Passport (180 amps max) that would be great. Will my Passport have enough juice to run this gas in both spray and short?There is an inductance switch on the Passport, it is a 2 position toggle, one position for 'steel', the other for 'stainless'. The stainless position is supposed to have a softer arc. I have not tried it. I'm wondering if I should try the inductance in the stainless position for spray on mild steel?-------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finally, I intend to use ER70S2 or S6 wire in .030" or .035", since that is what I normally use for steel MIG-short. Is this ok with 98/2 or 92/8 for spray? Which of those (S2 or S6) is preferred for spray steel?Much thanks for all of your insights!Last edited by DesertRider33; 12-09-2007 at 03:52 PM.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Typically 1-5% oxygen is used for steel spray mode.For pulsed spray 5-10% CO2 is commonly used.On a 200 amp machine you are going to really be pushing the unit to spray well. I would suggest going with an oxygen blend.I run 90/10 on short/pulsed and spray modes with my MM 350P, but that machine has the power to do all the transfer modes with 90/10, lesser machines will struggle.Ron ShopFloorTalk Millermatic 350P, M-25, M-40 gunsDynasty 300DX, Coolmate 3, Crafter CS-310 TorchTrailblazer 302, 12RC, WC-2430A spoolgunSpectrum 2050Thermal Arc Plasma Welder PS-3000/WC-100B
Reply:Wow, a lot of questioins.98/2 takes less volts than 92/8. Look at the pics, the gas and the voltage. TIG is 12 to 15 volts max with pure Argon. Short arc is 15 to Twenty Something volts, Spray starts at 26 with small wire and argon/o2 mix. I can't get spray with 92/8 until close to 30 volts. Does your machine go up to 30 volts?Welding with pure argon makes for a "Tig" arc at our welding voltages, so the wire doesn't short to the work. It just burns off in the arc. Look at the last pic, I set the voltage so I got a good sounding arc. Its cold as can be. But the only way I could get a true short arc. If I turned up the volts, I guess it would be globular transfer. Meaning the droplets of the weld are larger than the diameter of the wire.I wouldn't try to spray with the passport. I did some spray with my wirematic 250 and feared of melting the gun. It would do it with 98/2 turned all the way up, I think 26 or 28 volts. .035 wire.Inductance seems to have no effect on spray. The smaller the weld, the more it can help. Just for bragging, I can spray with C/25 using the V350 at about 40 volts. I have no control of the puddle, but its true spray. Shade tree weldor, I bet you could do the same.DavidLast edited by David R; 12-09-2007 at 09:17 PM.Real world weldin. When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Thanks again for the insights!Ok, the manual for my HTP says the machine has an open circuit voltage range of 20 to 37 and a max wire feed speed of 625 in/min. The machine doesn't have meters on it so I have no idea what the actual voltage is while welding. The manual doesn't state the max welding voltage or the voltage at rated output. Maybe I can spray easier with it if I use .023 wire, since that should take less voltage to melt the wire? I dont know if I will have enough wire feed speed to fill the weld spraying with the thin wire though. I've only used that thin of wire for sheetmetal and other thin stuff where I wasn't looking for much fill. I will probly need to upgrade the torch. The factory torch is very light duty and I'm on my second one cause I melted the first one. The torch doesn't seem to have a duty cycle that matches the machines duty cycle. I've been thinking of replacing it with a Bernard Q-Gun for awhile now.So it sounds like 98/2 Ar/O2, or maybe even a little more oxygen (?), will be needed to spray with the HTP since I'm limited on voltage (?).If only I had 3-phase power available . I have a Miller CP250TS that should be able to spray anything. The voltage range goes up to about 45 if I remember right and it has a nice arc for spray. I use to weld with it at work spraying aluminum before we got the new machines. But, no 3-phase here so the machine is up for sale. I got it soley for the XR feeder and torch that were attatched to it. Anyways, that's a different topic.Maybe I should just dump some more money into fixing the PowCon.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------I get what you're saying about the Passport being under powered for spray. My manual states a max open circuit voltage of 45, but a max welding voltage of about 25 according to the graph, with a duty cycle of 20% at 150 amps and 21.5 volts (running on 230v) and a rather slow max wire feed speed of only 400 in/min. Sounds like I should forget about spraying with the Passport (?). I do have a Bernard Q400 on it so it shouldn't melt if I do get it hot. The Passport comes standard with the same M10 gun the Millermatic 135/140 comes with, which to me seems kinda cheesy considering the passport is an $1800 machine and the 140 is around $600 or something... The Q-Gun hit me up for almost $300, but it seems to be a better built torch and I like how they offered a choice on just about every aspect of it when I ordered it. Ha! I got off-topic again, sorry.I guess if I want to spray from the truck, I'd have to get a voltage-sensing feeder to run it off the Bobcat.I guess, like the inductance, the wire type doesn't matter much for spray steel? Thanks yall for putting up with all my questions and rambling ideas. I like to think aloud.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:I'd like to add to this debate on shielding gas....but rather than provide you with my own unsubstantiated opinions, I will give you and exerpt from the Lincoln Electric site.Link to complete article:http://www.lincolnelectric.ca/knowle...ent/migfaq.aspQ: Does shielding gas affect the quality of the finished weld? A: For most mild steel applications, CO2 will provide adequate shielding, but when you must have a flatter bead profile, less spatter or better wetting action, you may want to consider adding 75 to 90% argon to your CO2 shielding gas mix. Why? Argon is essentially inert to the molten weld metal and therefore will not react with the molten weld metal. When CO2 is mixed with Argon, the reactivity of the gas is reduced and the arc becomes more stable. But, Argon is more expensive. In production welding, selecting the perfect shielding gas can be a science of its own. Attributes such as material thickness, welding position, electrode diameter, surface condition, welding procedures and others can affect results. Common gas mixes for the home hobbyist and small fabricator would be: 100% CO2 -Lowest price, generally greatest penetration, and higher levels of spatter. Limited to short circuit and globular transfer.75% Argon - 25% CO2 -Higher price, most commonly used by home hobbyist and light fabricator, lower levels of spatter and flatter weld bead than 100% CO2. Limited to short circuit and globular transfer.85% Argon - 15% CO2-Higher price, most commonly used by fabricators, with a good combination of lower spatter levels and excellent penetration for heavier plate applications and with steels that have more mill scale. Can be used in short circuit, globular, pulse and spray transfer.90% Argon - 10% CO2- Higher price, most commonly used by fabricators, with a good combination of lower spatter levels and good penetration for a wide variety of steel plate applications. Can be used in short circuit, globular, pulse and spray transfer. TRY C-25 SHIELDING GAS (75% Argon, 25% CO2 )Later,Jason
Reply:Im not selling this as the gospel truth, just tellin yall about what Im using right now. We started a new project over the summer. We all had to be in house certified for 1G with .035 and .045 hardwire, 90/10, spray arc. Everything is welded in the flat, spray arc.Now theses machines are apparently calibrated.... ....The machine I have the .035 on sprays at 23V 400ipm and the .045 starts spraying at around 26V 400ipmThey are both Deltaweld 450s with 70 series wirefeeders, 90/10I was laying 1/2" welds with the .045 all day today multiple passes, very bored. but man does it ever spray nice, no spatter at all, silent arc. Man was I sweatin!
Reply:Pulser I have welded thousands of pounds of wire in fab, production, and play and I understand weld quality. Having said that were I live you dont just go get a tank of what you want when you want. We have been out of c25 for 3 or 4 weeks at a time. I always can get my argon. I recently fixed a bucket for a track hoe and used argon on that jub while welding 5/8" plate in one pass at 550ipm on pulse. Trust me the penetration was incredible. I have done die test on cut welds and if done properly argon weld great. The few times I have run c25 here my settings are colder than with 100% argon. When I welded production on trailer truck suspention we used 90/10 ar/co2 and when we switched to robots we used 97/3 to cut down spater and soot to help in the painting process. Eventually $$$$$ won out and we wens back to 90/10. Dave I would like to see some of your weld cut and etched if you dont mind. I have always used iodine what do you use? Steel Thunder Welding LLC. St. Thomas VI USAMM350PBOBCAT 3MAXSTAR 150 STH375 EXTREME PLASMA6.5 HP COMPRESORDEWALT 18, 24, AND 36 VOLTO/A TORCH SETAND SO MUCH MORE I DONT REMEMBERALL IN MY 2005 2500HD EXTENDED CAB L/B
Reply:I will do test welds and cut them apart. I etch with some kind of acid used to clean aluminum wheels. If you want something specific, let me know. This was started because a guy asked which gas to use for his small mig. One author stated 98/2 was the best for short circuit. Its not.I have no luck with pure argon because to get a true short circuit, the volts have to be WAY down there and the weld is too cold. If I crank up the volts, I get globular transfer. The original question in another thread was about short circuit. Decide what you all want welded and etched.DavidReal world weldin. When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Thanks David. I wish I had more time to do some weld testing. I end up in the field all day and end up not doing any coupons for fun. Oh well at least im workin! Steel Thunder Welding LLC. St. Thomas VI USAMM350PBOBCAT 3MAXSTAR 150 STH375 EXTREME PLASMA6.5 HP COMPRESORDEWALT 18, 24, AND 36 VOLTO/A TORCH SETAND SO MUCH MORE I DONT REMEMBERALL IN MY 2005 2500HD EXTENDED CAB L/B |
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