Bolt on spindles

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A few years ago I was at an auction at a welding shop that was closing the owner was retiring. He had a bunch of trailers he had built and I bid on one just because I thought it was really neat how he built it. It went for pretty cheap but still more than I was going to pay for something I didn't need. That was a mistakeAnyways the part that I thought was so neat were the axles. I talked to the guy who built it and asked him some question. He said he had build the front axles. When I asked how he told me it was easy all he did was go to the auto wrecker and take some bolt on spindles off of the front of some really old trucks they had the brakes and all but they were bolted on with for bolts like the spindles on the back axle of a front wheel drive call but they were really heavy duty since they were from a truck and not a car. He then made flanges with the same bolt pattern and welded them on to the ends of a heavy wall square tube. He put a surge coupler on the trailer and it had brake for way cheaper than buying an axle with electric brakes. When I asked how well this work he said he did it for every trailer he made over the years and it worked great. I looked around at the other trailers he had up for auction and sure enough they all had them.So my question is does anyone know what trucks had these bolt on front spindles? I was thinking about doing this for my next trailer build. I don't really want to use car spindle I don't think the would be very heavy duty but I could be wrong. Also I have never used surge brakes before are they any good. I'm not going to be building a supper heavy duty trailer but any trailer I build where I live has to have brakes if its gross weight will be 3000lb or more. Please let me know your thoughts and please someone let me know what trucks had spindle like what I described because for the life of me I can't remember what he said he got them off of.Thank you.
Reply:any truck with a dana 44 front axle will have bolt on spindles.  - chevy, ford, (dodge?), jeep.just be warned though that they are generally not easy to remove as they have a flange that seats in the knuckle very tightly.
Reply:How well would a 4X4 spindle and hum work as a trailer axle?
Reply:pretty good I would think. the spindle is pretty beefy, and the hub is supported by 2 pretty good sized bearings as well. now that I think of it (having done wheel bearings on trailers and 4x4's) they are very similar in design, just that everything on the 4x4 is bigger and stronger.If there is a pick a part wrecker near you, you could go there and take one apart to see if it is what you are looking for.
Reply:If I used 4X4 spindles do I gut the hub and just make a cap?
Reply:I would say just take out the splined gears and springs in the hubs, then put the locking cap back on. without the inners it wouldn't matter if the hub was turned to locked or unlocked. that would save you from having to make a cap.
Reply:I can't think of a non-driving truck axle that used a bolt-on spindle assembly. And driving axle parts were always so scarce and expensive, that they wouldn't have made very economical trailer spindles.Ramblers used to have a clean flat bolt-on spindle, I wonder if that's what the trailer builder used. But the Rumblers weren't a truck, and they're extinct now anyway.Today there are so many sealed-unit  hub and bearing assemblies, even on trucks, that it's probably not worth messing with antique spindles.Good Luck
Reply:Everything you need is right here.  This spindle came off a Jeep (89 wagoneer, I believe) and the hub/rotor is off a Ford F150 (that's what I need for my project, you would of course get them all from the same vehicle). You could either weld the spindle right onto some pipe, or build a flange that is welded to the pipe and then bolt the spindle to the flange. You would have to trim that ridge of course.  That is going to be one sturdy trailer axle. Attached Images
Reply:That looks likes it would make one heck of an axle Although I do have one question and I know its going to sound really weird. Do you know of a way to use that type of spindle but with a brake drum instead of disk brakes. Also would you happen to know what the axle would be rated for in the vehicle you got that out of either the jeep or the F-150. If I can get that in a drum brake setup then it should be perfect provided I can get them from the auto wrecker for a reasonable price.Thanks for the help and the pictures you just saved me a day of crawling around at the wreckers in the cold
Reply:Yes, get your parts from an older 4x4 truck. Prior to the early 70s a majority of 4wd front axles used a similar spindle design with drum brakes. Dana 30s and Dana 44s are probably your most likely targets. Found in trucks from every make, Jeep, Chevy, Ford, International...
Reply:The old truck spindle for trailer brakes trick, eh? This should be fun and interesting!Pop has a front drop axle out of some truck made by a company called Dutch Brothers under his 1930 something Ford pick-up bed trailer. Now, with those spindles, I can't get bearings or grease seals to go along with the extinct hubs. Last time I tried to pack the bearings, I gave up on new seals and figured when they die from bad grease, or no grease, I'll just go and buy a real trailer axle!  No brakes under this little trailer...BTW, surge brakes work great, just use a real surge coupler. They will need maintenance. (Meaning:- available replacement parts.)Last edited by tanglediver; 10-08-2009 at 12:21 AM.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Originally Posted by chicksdigwagonsYes, get your parts from an older 4x4 truck. Prior to the early 70s a majority of 4wd front axles used a similar spindle design with drum brakes. Dana 30s and Dana 44s are probably your most likely targets. Found in trucks from every make, Jeep, Chevy, Ford, International...
Reply:I guess I should have read that again before asking Thanks I think I might start going to the wreckers and seeing what I can find and I will stay away from the years you mentioned for the 4X4 guys. One last question. Do you know what vehicles came with the 6 bolt pattern. If I understand what you said right people want to convert from the 6 bolt to the 5 bolt on their 4X4. The reason I ask is 6 bolt would suit my needs better and if they are less desirable to other people then I won't be taking away some ones scrap yard treasure.Thanks for all the help.
Reply:then you are in luck because the chev and jeep will have the 6 bolt pattern.  Fords are 5For us 4x4 (jeep) guys it is a bit more complicated - usually we are trying to match the rear axle bolt pattern, which in a lot of cases is 5 bolt - for example a ford 9" or 8.8" rear end.  Then we get a Dana 44 front axle out of a jeep wagoneer, but it has 6 bolt pattern. However, if we take the wagoneer front axle and put the 73 - 76.5 spindle on it, then the Ford hub/rotor will fit on it and presto, we now have the 5 bolt pattern on the front. To complicate it even further........the 73-76.5 chev and 74-76 full size jeeps have desirable flat top knuckles which allows us to move the steering up for better geometry and also to get the tie rod out of the way of the rocks, and still have the spindle that the ford hub fits onto.
Reply:http://www.duratechindustries.net/dt/dtindustries.htmFind a dealer near you or call the company direct, ask them how much spindle/hub assembly would be for the ones off a Haybuster 2650.  Boom, you got a bolt on spindle/hub assembly, takes 6 lug wheels, and no monkeying around trying to make flanges or rebuilding old  spindles.
Reply:The old Spicer 44 did indeed have a bolt on spindle.  These were associated with drum brakes in the early years.The later Dana 44(same axle, different/same company) used an entirely different system.Pic one.....old style...... Motors manual 34th editionPic two......new style....... Chrysler Corp factory manual 1978 light duty trucks (undoubtedly a Helms manual)This is why I hate computers with a passion.  I've been working on Dodge trucks for 37yrs.  I have the books (things printed on paper, and bound).  I go to the bookshelf, pick up the book, leaf thru the pages, and I got the goods.  No dead end web searches because of improper key words.  No little windows you view, not knowing that the pertinent information is just a page away.My search took about 45 seconds. Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by tanglediverThe old truck spindle for trailer brakes trick, eh? This should be fun and interesting!Pop has a front drop axle out of some truck made by a company called Dutch Brothers under his 1930 something Ford pick-up bed trailer. Now, with those spindles, I can't get bearings or grease seals to go along with the extinct hubs. Last time I tried to pack the bearings, I gave up on new seals and figured when they die from bad grease, or no grease, I'll just go and buy a real trailer axle!  No brakes under this little trailer...BTW, surge brakes work great, just use a real surge coupler. They will need maintenance. (Meaning:- available replacement parts.)
Reply:Oh, RE the pic of the imaginary mechnic tapping the spindle loose with a brass hammerNot on your lifeGet out the BFH, or the hot wrench.  LOL"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:As Tanglediver said..........best axle is a single I-Beam axle, just weld up the knuckles"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:with all due respect to your books, and yourself of course, I have recently taken a apart numerous front Dana 44 axles, from 80's and 90's Jeeps, Chev's and Fords and they all had bolt on spindles like your first (older style) picture.  I looked up Spicer catalog X510-9 which lists all front axles used on NA trucks from 78-98, and the hub assembly from picture 2 was only used on Dodge trucks in those years.  I intentionally avoided Dodge when suggesting options to the OP as, although I am not intimately familiar with them, I do know that some of their front axles were different. That's why I had dodge with a ? in my first reply.and yeah, I'm 100% with you on the picture of the mechanic tapping the spindle off. It just does not happen that way. searched high and low before I found some spindles on a 75 chev and when I finally did, I could only get one of them off at the scrapyard.
Reply:If you are building a lightweight trailer, then a number of front wheel drive cars have solid rear axles that frequently have bolt on spindles/hubs/brakes.I had a 1986 Chrysler LeBaron one time, that had such a setup, also my current Saturn appears to be similar.Wow, I am so happy, I had something to offer (albeit feeble perhaps).Regards to all.Working on cars and bikes is my hobby, learning to weld the pieces together is my quest.
Reply:I was just referring to Dodges.  I've never owned any other brand until recently.  I bought my first Ford in 94.  Never owned a chevy, although I'm rebuilding an old one(can't say I own it until it's actually running)I've talked to a few guys that hate the new service manuals that are coming out on disc.  Same problem with "pages".  Younger guys seem comfortable with them though."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI've talked to a few guys that hate the new service manuals that are coming out on disc.  Same problem with "pages".  Younger guys seem comfortable with them though.
Reply:Now the big question. Whats stronger a spindle from a 4X4 as discussed earlier in the thread or a car spindle? The reason I ask is because the 4X4 spindle although big and beefy it is also hollow where as a car spindle is solid like a regular trailer spindle. Does any one know the size difference between a spindle on a 3500# axle and the average front wheel drive car rear spindle? I know it will depend on the exact car I'm just trying to figure out if they are similar in size. Maybe a car spindle is stronger than I think it is I just assumed that since its off of a car that it wouldn't be strong enoughAlso I have never dealt with surge breaks can any one give me any tips or suggestions. Is there anything I should know ahead of time to avoid learning it the hard way. Tips or tricks
Reply:Although I am sure it must have happened sometime, I have never personally seen or heard of a Dana 44 spindle breaking.  Some of these 4x4's run massive tires and they do some crazy things with them.  When something reaches the breaking point - it is the ujoint or the axle.  Having said that, in what you are planning there won't be any ujoint or axle as the weak point so....could be the spindle that goes.  How much do you trust your welding? I've never had any experience with surge brakes so can't help you there.Yeah the spindles almost never break, it's usually the knuckle and it's usually because the axle joint broke then takes out the ball joints or king pins, then all h3ll breaks loose and you've got to drag your rig off the muddy trail and fix it in the mud next to the muddy trail........in the rain...at night cause you didn't pack an extra knuckle and had to ride all over east bumf*** hunting one and take it off aunt Esters crippled old derelict truck, and race back to the trail before any thieving little hoods decide they decide they need your s**t more than you do, or worse the ruin your crap and leave it there. I'd ruther you stole my crap than vandalize it! But either way I may track you down and ... well  let's not go there, cuz by the time I get to trackin vandals and thieves I've already bet up for 34 hours between drivin a few hrs to the OHV area and spending 12 hours fixing junk after a 4 hour trail ride......and I may not respond well to that.Look for the spindles from a 3/4 ton square body Chevy. it'll either be a 10 bolt or a dana 44 and either will have bolt on spindles with heavier hubs and bearings than a 1/2 ton.Most 3/4 ton axles (front) are rated around 4000 lb, some less some more. As for surge breaks it'll work with disc or drum, the only real difference on the spindle side of things is whether you use a bracket or backing plate, but either bolts to the knuckle behind the spindle. One thing to consider disc brakes are considerably cheaper to maintain.Brian LeonardAppalachian Ironworks L.L.C.434 Long Branch Rd, Marshall, NC 28753828 649 9966828 702 [email protected]
Reply:I know 4X4 spindles are strong when the are on a truck but they have the axle and everything inside them making them practically a solid spindle but none of that will be there on the trailer. I could be wrong about this so feel free to correct me. Originally Posted by FuzzydogAlthough I am sure it must have happened sometime, I have never personally seen or heard of a Dana 44 spindle breaking.  Some of these 4x4's run massive tires and they do some crazy things with them.  When something reaches the breaking point - it is the ujoint or the axle.  Having said that, in what you are planning there won't be any ujoint or axle as the weak point so....could be the spindle that goes.  How much do you trust your welding? I've never had any experience with surge brakes so can't help you there.
Reply:Here's the trailer I mentioned. This is what I do at work
Reply:Originally Posted by Mega Arc 5040DDI know 4X4 spindles are strong when the are on a truck but they have the axle and everything inside them making them practically a solid spindle but none of that will be there on the trailer. I could be wrong about this so feel free to correct me.The last trailer I built weighed in at right around 33 tons. So I think its sake to say I trust my welding4000 lbs  I might have to make a bigger trailer than originally thoughtI don't know if this applies to surge brakes but on vehicles there is a pressure difference between disk brakes and drum breaks. It takes more line pressure on a drum brake to provide the same amount of breaking as a disk brake.Also if I use drum brakes I can set them to give me more or less breaking with the same amount of line pressure. With disk breaks the surge coupler has all the control.
Reply:Let's step back and take a fresh look at the bolt-on spindle hunt.Back in the day, when trailer axles were unique and expensive, it was very practical  for the trailer builder to remove spindle assemblies from a wrecked newer car or truck. The common and current wreck would give up a nice pair of  spindles, complete with hubs, brakes, wheels and tires, and then these complete assemblies would bolt or weld to a simple flat plate, and go. But today - we're talking about scrounging for an already-old 4x4 spindle, which will require a precision bored pilot hole in a large heavy plate, and a custom brake system build. To retain grease, the 4x4 spindle will require custom sealing different than the OE design. Also the 4x4 spindle will probably necessitate the use of high-demand 4x4 rims and other parts, which could be expensive at service time. Where is the economy in all that? Especially when complete new trailer spindle and hub assemblies -if not complete surplus or used axle assemblies- can probably be purchased for less than $100. Actually though, the same craftsman who is capable of making the difficult hub conversion probably doesn't need bolt-on spindles anyway, he could just base the build on common heavy duty rear floater axle components.Okay, if there's some readily available and simple bolt-on hub assembly, or an inexpensive axle which can be easily stretched, go for it. Or in a case of necessity, sure, then we'll row the boat with the oars we have.But from a practical standpoint, considering today's alternatives, it just doesn't make sense to search-out old obscure components to scratch-build wheel ends. On the other hand, if we're talking about a labor of love, by all means enjoy the build.Good Luck
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepLet's step back and take a fresh look at the bolt-on spindle hunt.Back in the day, when trailer axles were unique and expensive, it was very practical  for the trailer builder to remove spindle assemblies from a wrecked newer car or truck. The common and current wreck would give up a nice pair of  spindles, complete with hubs, brakes, wheels and tires, and then these complete assemblies would bolt or weld to a simple flat plate, and go. But today - we're talking about scrounging for an already-old 4x4 spindle, which will require a precision bored pilot hole in a large heavy plate, and a custom brake system build. To retain grease, the 4x4 spindle will require custom sealing different than the OE design. Also the 4x4 spindle will probably necessitate the use of high-demand 4x4 rims and other parts, which could be expensive at service time. Where is the economy in all that? Especially when complete new trailer spindle and hub assemblies -if not complete surplus or used axle assemblies- can probably be purchased for less than $100. Actually though, the same craftsman who is capable of making the difficult hub conversion probably doesn't need bolt-on spindles anyway, he could just base the build on common heavy duty rear floater axle components.Okay, if there's some readily available and simple bolt-on hub assembly, or an inexpensive axle which can be easily stretched, go for it. Or in a case of necessity, sure, then we'll row the boat with the oars we have.But from a practical standpoint, considering today's alternatives, it just doesn't make sense to search-out old obscure components to scratch-build wheel ends. On the other hand, if we're talking about a labor of love, by all means enjoy the build.Good Luck
Reply:Originally Posted by app-ironworksllcThere's not a huge difference in line pressure between disc and drum, but drum brakes have a residual line pressure check valve that keeps a few psi applied to the wheel cylinder so it has the "umph" to force the shoes towards the drum without a long stroke of the master cylinder's piston, so you don't have to pump repeatedly to reach enough pressure to create substantial stopping power. On most cast iron MC's you can fairly easily remove the check valve from the outlet port of the MC. Most of the difference in line pressure has more to do with stopping power, weight transfer, and control under braking. Weight transfer makes the rear brakes want to lock sooner than the front, so line pressure is used to give the front more stopping power. This is generally true even on drum/drum or disc/disc setups, not just disc/drum.If I recall the difference is as much about stroke volume vs line pressure. To keep all that relative you should pay attention to the donor vehicle's MC. Specifically MC piston diameter and stroke length. If you can find a surge control MC that is close to the donor vehicles in that respect you're good to go. If you can, get the vin from the donor and find a good auto parts person (who knows WTF they're doing) and they should be able to look up the MC then get those specs from their brake manufacturers buyer's guide. If you go hunting for square Chebbies (73-87, and some up to 92, straight axle's only, no IFS) on the later models look on the inside of the glove box door and write down all those build codes from the data code sticker, some times you'll need that even with a vin. IIRC brake codes look like: JD3, JB4, or some similar combo.As for which spindle is stronger 4 x 4 vs FWD car's rear spindle, while I may not have the specs and science to back it up I'd be willing to bet some one else's money that a 3/4 ton p/u will be quite a bit stouter the the solid (but much smaller o.d.) spindle of a FWD car. (BTW a single wheel 1 ton will be pretty much the same, only a little beefier in some cases)Regarding the removing of hub drive parts affecting spindle strength, it makes no difference at all, those drive parts "float" inside the hub. The only part passing through the inside of the spindle is the outer (or stub) axle. It has nothing to do with load carrying, only power transfer from the axle to the hub. This is what makes them "full floating" axles. And if you've noticed, that is the same spindle-axle-hub setup that HD 3/4 tons and up have been using for years, front or rear. Even OTR trucks use this same setup, the only difference essentially is the size and strength of the components, giving the HD truck axles around 20,000 lb per axle in some cases. (You truckers probably can tell me if thats right)
Reply:the last couple trailers I made I used 3/4 ton rear axlejust cut the axle tubes and remover the pumpkin slide round tubing over the axle weld to disired length. then remover floating axle and cut end off and reinstall first side then with axle lifted high on one side pour a couple liters of 80/90 gear lube in and install other axle end. gives you strong easy to find wheels for with drum brakes and spring pads.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mega Arc 5040DDI'm not sure what all you are talking about precision bored pilot holes  The back of the spindle has a step which must pilot into a precision fit bore. Remember the earlier posts describing how difficult the spindle is to separate from the knuckle? The tight fitting pilot is why. The thin flange alone cannot support axle loads or take brake reaction, that is what necessitates  the pilot. or greasing problems its quite simple make a plate with the same bolt hole pattern as the spindles and bolt them on pack bearings with grease. Simple. The drive axle carries a lip seal and a bellows type seal which helps to keep the spindle closed. Once the axle and lock-out are gutted, and the spindle is open, there is going to have to be some other provision to seal the hub assembly.  New axle with brakes $300-$400 and If I could find used ones cheaper than I could build them and they fit my application I would probably buy them.  I'd be surprised if these could be built for less. Can complete and decent 3/4 ton 4x4 wheel ends be had for less than $100 minimum each? Also there is nothing custom about the brakes in fact I'm trying to avoid custom breaks buy finding a spindle setup complete with breaks.   Again, the brake support is separate from the spindle, usually it's supported by a cast part of the knuckle, which there will not be room for, since it occupies the same space as your new bolt-down plate, thus brake supports will have to be custom. All I would have to do is connect brake lines. Either way I still have wanted to figure this out since I saw that trailer at auction I just need to know how neat ideas work and I thought this was a creative solution so I guess this could be considered a labor of love.   It is a neat idea, but the devil is in the details, and it takes the correct and complete wheel end to make it practical. I had thought about the rear floating axle components but it seems like a lot more work and expense. First off the rear floating components would be coming off the same vehicle as the front. True, but the rears could also be pulled from a cheap throw-away 2wd axle, and would be higher load capacity too. And second there is very little modifying needed to use the front spindle compared to the back and I would have to buy the whole rear axle that will most likely cost more than the hubs. The 3/4 ton rears are tough and rarely give trouble, thus  complete rear axles are routinely scrapped, and could probably be bought for less than the premium 4x4 front components. How about  joining axle tubes with a new center section, per Kneedeeps post #33. That method would eliminate plate machining and brake re-engineering.Thanks for your advice and you might be right this might turn in to a complete bust to do it this way but to me it's worth looking into I enjoy the challenge.  You're welcome. I too would like to see some modern and practical bolt-on heavy duty spindle components uncovered. Keep at it
Reply:Well I have some happy news and some not so happy news. I just phoned on of my local auto wreckers for a price on a 4X4 spindle and hub assembly $35 for the spindle and hub and $10 for the drum.  The not so happy news they currently don't have any 4X4s out in the yard witch really doesn't matter since I wouldn't be doing this until spring and there are several auto wreckers around so it gives me a base idea of price.  Complete rear axle $100 so that might be an option to. I am bound and determined to fined a realistic way to build my own axle and I have all winter to do it
Reply:I'll mention that some time ago I did a pretty exhaustive study of trying to use then available common ‘70s and ‘80s truck parts to build a beam-less chassis for a very low trailer. I gave up when I ended up finding a heavy duty boat trailer with a factory built beam-less chassis, and some very cold weather that Alfred said would cause the loads to shrink in height. Here's what you're up against on the pilot:Attachment 39964Attachment 39963The plate bracket was a custom piece used to try to hang a caliper on a 3/4 ton rear housing. Now you could probably find a factory disc brake job.I sort of remember looking at a Japanese truck that maybe used bolt-on heavy spindles. I'm not exactly positive on that.Good LuckLast edited by denrep; 10-19-2010 at 11:42 PM.
Reply:For the OP, I was thinking that he could find some pipe that those spindles would fit snugly into or over (there is a very pronounced lip on them) and they could be welded up snugly. Do away completely with the rest of the knuckle.BTW - my comment previously about "how much do you trust your welds?" was not meant in any way to be critical - I was just kidding.But anyway, yeah, weld those spindles onto a suitably sized pipe and you are done.
Reply:Originally Posted by FuzzydogFor the OP, I was thinking that he could find some pipe that those spindles would fit snugly into or over (there is a very pronounced lip on them) and they could be welded up snugly. Do away completely with the rest of the knuckle.BTW - my comment previously about "how much do you trust your welds?" was not meant in any way to be critical - I was just kidding.But anyway, yeah, weld those spindles onto a suitably sized pipe and you are done.