230v outlet, what size wire

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Bought a Tig that desires 230v outlet 50ampGot the outlet at lowes. Says welding outlet on it. lol.Got the dual 50amp breaker, I have wired 20amp lights and outlets all threw my house. So I'm not a total newb.I'm not sure what size wire to use on the 230v 50amp outlet. I have some 10-3 (30amp). I'm not sure if running two 30amp wires is ok? Or do I need 6-3 (65amp). Saw on youtube that some people were saying 6-3 is way overkill.I know its two hots and one neutral. I take it the two hots share the amps. As in 25amps per circuit? I'm really not sure.ThermalArc 161STL TIG/Stick (160amp)Lincoln weld-pak 100 (fluxcore)4X6 Enco bandsaw10" skillsaw with metal blade for 45degrees (works)4" grinderWeld for fun. Very rare I do it for Money.
Reply:need to know how many feet you are going to run it.
Reply:Google  wire gauge calculator, should find one that you can put amps, voltage, and length in to tell you what will work.HH 187Miller Bluestar1EAHP AlphaTig 200X
Reply:Originally Posted by walkerneed to know how many feet you are going to run it.
Reply:Run 8/3 and you should be good!  Maybe you can go to your local home improvment store and cut some off the reel..AEAD 200LE, Lincoln precision tig 185, Millermatic 251, Spectrum 625 extreme, Victor torch , Smithy 1220LTD. and  Do all C-4 band saw ,  Always adding.
Reply:Originally Posted by FunnyDreamBought a Tig that desires 230v outlet 50ampGot the outlet at lowes. Says welding outlet on it. lol.Got the dual 50amp breaker, I have wired 20amp lights and outlets all threw my house. So I'm not a total newb.I'm not sure what size wire to use on the 230v 50amp outlet. I have some 10-3 (30amp). I'm not sure if running two 30amp wires is ok? Or do I need 6-3 (65amp). Saw on youtube that some people were saying 6-3 is way overkill.I know its two hots and one neutral. I take it the two hots share the amps. As in 25amps per circuit? I'm really not sure.
Reply:SAW, why do welders not require a neutral? If I run a 220 line to use for a cutoff saw I would need 10-3another nmb wouldn't I? Red, black are hot, white is neutral and a green or bare for ground. Is that correct? Just curious why welders don't get a neutral, im pretty uneducated when it comes to electrical, just trying to understand it more. Thanks
Reply:Got me as to why exactly a 230v unit doesn't require a neutral. If you measure voltage across the two hots however you will get a 230v reading with no other wires. The way it was explained to me was that the 4th wire (neutral) is now needed by code for those appliances that need both 110v and 230 v power, like a range or dryer. I think the reason is that they don't like using the  bare "ground" as the neutral wire any more. I'm sure one of the electricians here can explain it better..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:A device that uses 240V (220-230-240, it's usually all the same thing, but current practice is to call it 240V in the US) uses 2 hot legs and a ground wire.Welder, compressor, chop saw, bandsaw, tablesaw, etc, etc, etc that use 240V power just need the two hots and the ground.But some devices that use (mostly) 240V power also have some internals that use 120V power.  Such as an electric stove, oven, or dryer that uses the 240V power for the 'big' power (heating elements) but it also uses 120V power for a light bulb or the circuit board power.  So the 'newer' code stuff says that for those type devices you have to run 4-wire 240V power to them (hot-hot-neutral-ground) so that there is no current flowing through the ground wire unless there is an actual 'grounding event'.As to the OP, RTFM and see what it says as to the electrical circuit requirements.  The 50amp 'welder outlet' (NEMA6-50R) is a common outlet/receptacle and can (usually) be used just fine and safely and 'per code' for devices that need anywhere from 10-70 amps (depending on a bunch of things).  Lower power/amps is almost never a problem/issue, higher power/amps may or may not be.  And oulets are usually 'coded' to match up with the wire and breaker ampacity ratings so that JoeSchmoe doesn't have to check or try an figure out exactly what the ampacity rating of all the 'pieces' in the circuit 'chain' are.  15amp outlet usually means 15amp devices can run just fine and safely, 20 amp outlet usually means 20amp devices can run fine and safely, etc, etc.And as said, welder circuits often can have some 'exemptions' in them as to the usual breaker-wire-outlet ampacity requirement because of the welder duty-cyle limits.  So a welder that needs a 50amp start-up surge but has a limited duty-cycle might safely and per-code allow a 50amp outlet and a 50amp breaker but use '30amp wire' (10AWG copper).  Because of the welder duty-cycle the wire never really gets a chance to overheat and start a fire.  But in such an "exemption case", the DEDICATED welder outlet is supposed to be labeled "For Welder Use Only!" or something to that effect so that someone else doen't go and plug in some device that actually needs full '50amp wiring' (say a big electric motor or heater that is running almost continuously and thus has no duty-cycle 'off time').But not always, so RTFM.If you don't really KNOW what you are doing for wiring and electricity (or you can look it up via manuals and code references and such, YouTube doesn't count here), then just hire an electrician.  It's not RocketScience, but it can cause damage or injury or death if not done safely and correctly.Last edited by MoonRise; 12-14-2011 at 10:11 AM.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:When I put in mine 50 amp breaker my research came up with I could go 50 feet with six guage copper.  I worked with an electrician for a while after that and it apparently isn't as simple as you think.  If you stick the wire through a hole in joists or studs with other wires (like I did) that effects your capacity.  I would suspect putting it in a conduit would effect it as well.  You might notice if you have overhead service the wire from the electric company (hanging in the air) is smaller generally than the one that runs down the wall to the meter and through the wall to the panel.  I also have read on the internet with quotes to certain codes about welders having a duty cycle so less guage is acceptable.  I would myself think it should be capable of 100 percent duty cycle if you attach it to the real estate.  Six guage copper will be fine I can pop the (GE) breaker a few times in a row and the wire isn't hot at all.fran
Reply:220-240 circuits do use a neutral, just not a dedicated wire. The two hots are 180 degrees out of phase so when when one wire is hot the other hot becomes the neutral, and it goes back and forth 60 times per second (Hertz). Hence alternating current. Things that that require 120 volts get the fourth wire or dedicated neutral because there is only one phase. You can use the ground on a 3 wire circuit to get 120 volts because the neutral and grounds are usually bonded in the breaker box, but thats a big no-no. If you label your circuit for welding use only you can use 10-2 with the 50 amp breaker given the duty cycle. I would run 6 ga. since its only 20 ft. and then you can use the circuit for whatever you want in the future.
Reply:Another way to look at is to read the manual for the welder and see what guage chord it has and if they tell you to up grade it for the maximum capacity of the machine on the voltage you are using.  I would think you would want to be one size larger than whatever you get from the manual.I wonder if the plug says welder use only because it isn't the four prong one for electric ranges or because it isn't 50 amps 100% duty cycle, or both.  The plug is where you should encounter heat first if my experience with electric devices in general holds true.
Reply:Originally Posted by fran...k.A The plug is where you should encounter heat first if my experience with electric devices in general holds true.
Reply:What also is interesting is that if he posts a picture of the "Welding" outlet he bought at Lowes. The left and right slots are different sizes from each other.If he had bought the one on the shelf beside it that said "Range", it would have 3 slots all the same size!My memory is that on a range plug, left and right pins were hots and the lower pin was the ground.So if that is correct, then why would a "Welder" outlet have a smaller slot on one side as if denoting "polarity"?
Reply:Thanks guys for clarifying it......I didn't know that regular 220 outlets did not require a neutral(with exception of the ones mentioned where 110 is also required) I learn something every day on here
Reply:Originally Posted by drujininWhat also is interesting is that if he posts a picture of the "Welding" outlet he bought at Lowes. The left and right slots are different sizes from each other.If he had bought the one on the shelf beside it that said "Range", it would have 3 slots all the same size!My memory is that on a range plug, left and right pins were hots and the lower pin was the ground.So if that is correct, then why would a "Welder" outlet have a smaller slot on one side as if denoting "polarity"?
Reply:Originally Posted by Wstmrlnd89639220-240 circuits do use a neutral, just not a dedicated wire. The two hots are 180 degrees out of phase so when when one wire is hot the other hot becomes the neutral, and it goes back and forth 60 times per second (Hertz). Hence alternating current. Things that that require 120 volts get the fourth wire or dedicated neutral because there is only one phase. You can use the ground on a 3 wire circuit to get 120 volts because the neutral and grounds are usually bonded in the breaker box, but thats a big no-no. If you label your circuit for welding use only you can use 10-2 with the 50 amp breaker given the duty cycle. I would run 6 ga. since its only 20 ft. and then you can use the circuit for whatever you want in the future.
Reply:Sort of, but not quite.A US (or similar) 240V single-phase circuit uses two hot legs and a safety ground. No neutral.One of the two hot legs is 120V 'above' neutral and the other leg is 120V 'below' neutral. And neutral is almost always tied to "ground" as a common zero reference point (among other things/uses/purposes/reasons).So with those two out-of-phase hot legs, you can measure a 'nominal' 240V AC RMS between them. As the sinusoidal voltage on one leg is going 'up', the sinusoidal voltage on the other leg is going 'down'. So the the greatest voltage difference between the two legs is when the phases are 'farthest' apart (actual voltage between them is approx 340V peak-to-peak at that point) and the minimum voltage between the two legs is when the two phases are 'closest' and at zero volts. Hence the RMS AC voltage between those two legs is ~240V. Each leg is 170V peak-to-peak above/below ground/neutral.Then why does each leg measure 120v? You lost me with the 170v peak volts. Did we not basically say the same thing?
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWGot me as to why exactly a 230v unit doesn't require a neutral. If you measure voltage across the two hots however you will get a 230v reading with no other wires. The way it was explained to me was that the 4th wire (neutral) is now needed by code for those appliances that need both 110v and 230 v power, like a range or dryer. I think the reason is that they don't like using the  bare "ground" as the neutral wire any more. I'm sure one of the electricians here can explain it better.
Reply:Originally Posted by Wstmrlnd89639Then why does each leg measure 120v? You lost me with the 170v peak volts. Did we not basically say the same thing?
Reply:I think I was tought the dumbed down version,lol.