Feedback on welding 5052 ally .090thk.

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Hello all,New to the forum, and looking for some feedback on welding 5052 ally .090thk.Background on me:I am a younger (34yr) cnc machinist and QC guy, not a welder. I can stick, mig, and Tig most steel alloys with very good results. I prefer Tig to all other types of welding I have tried.My Equipment and set up for this project: 1.Lincoln precision Tig 275 with out the advanced options panel.  I bought the unit as a ready to weld assembly and it has a number 20 torch, foot pedal, etc. the unit is about three years old.2.Base material is 5052 aluminum .090 thick.3.Fill rod is 5356 3/32 thk.4.3/32 gas lens with red tungsten and #7 gas cup5.Inert gas is straight argon at about 17 to 20 CFM6.The machine is set to AC and I'm utilizing the auto balance feature.Please forgive my terminology or lack there of as I said I'm not a welder.Okay here come the questions:1.Do I need the advanced options panel for my welder in order to make it easier or otherwise to produce nice cosmetic aluminum welds?2.If you know my machine, then you are aware that without the advanced options panel, I'm pretty limited with adjustments.  The AC balance knob located on the left side of the machine has an auto balance feature which I normally use. Does anyone have any feedback on how affective or what specific types of applications the auto balance would be preferable?3.The AC balance knob does allow me to adjust the machine so that it will either clean more surface or narrow the arc for greater penetration.  I've read some other posts on welding aluminum I'm just having a hard time relating some of the recommended AC settings to my machine.  Your feedback please.4.Is there a negative affect to using an oversized gas cup or nozzle?  I always understood the rule of thumb to be, work with the biggest cup size you can use.  I was told only reduce the cup size as needed for access.5.Is there a negative affect or is it more difficult to weld with an oversized tungsten?  And why?My goal:For this project the welds need to be cosmetically pleasing, structure and strength is secondary.  I do not want the area of cleaned base metal to extend beyond the fill puddle any more than is absolutely necessary, preferably not at all, at least to the naked eye.That is enough for now, lets start with that, please.Thanks,SK
Reply:I don't know nuttin about 505 and 5356.  If you want the cleaning to be as wide as the bead, then weld on some scrap and adjust the wave balance so it does what you want.More + wave will make the cleaning wider.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I would use 40-43 filler wire myself. And I do use it, in fact I believe it is the recommended wire, or was. Today many are leaving the old ARCH or concave weld. For the mound. If you look at the mound from an engineering aspect. It is just the wrong shape to create a connection. It almost creates the least optimum shape you could possibly create. It creates a crevasse or a sharp line to form or start a crack. The 40-43 is designed to be strong and yet flex more then the base material. Usually this works well, when doing nice well thought out welds. So well I have never considered another filler wire. Strength in a welding wire often means that it will not give or bend. I cannot see any reason for that. If the weld was designed right. I would use 1/16" filler wire myself. You are going to hate the large filler wire. The smaller filler wire costs more per pound because they have to run much more length off a roll, and through a straightener and cutter, for each box. But it is usually worth it. If you are going for a tiny weld, in some cases you can pinpoint the heat better with a small non-gas lens type cup. But this is less important then how you weld it. If you are doing edge to edge outside corners, you may want to put a piece of large aluminum angle behind the weld. And clamp two other large aluminum angles to the outside of the aluminum as well. A quarter inch back from the area to be welded. This will give you the type of weld that people go "How the heck do they do that?".If you are going to be doing fillet type welds. You can definitely use a non-gas lens cup very small. A five or four can work well. You have to leave the tungsten outside the cup though. It stays very clean. This will keep your weld very narrow. That should be enough to think about for now. Ha-ha.       Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormick JrI would use 40-43 filler wire myself. And I do use it, in fact I believe it is the recommended wire, or was. Today many are leaving the old ARCH or concave weld. For the mound. If you look at the mound from an engineering aspect. It is just the wrong shape to create a connection. It almost creates the least optimum shape you could possibly create. It creates a crevasse or a sharp line to form or start a crack. The 40-43 is designed to be strong and yet flex more then the base material. Usually this works well, when doing nice well thought out welds. So well I have never considered another filler wire. Strength in a welding wire often means that it will not give or bend. I cannot see any reason for that. If the weld was designed right. I would use 1/16" filler wire myself. You are going to hate the large filler wire. The smaller filler wire costs more per pound because they have to run much more length off a roll, and through a straightener and cutter, for each box. But it is usually worth it. If you are going for a tiny weld, in some cases you can pinpoint the heat better with a small non-gas lens type cup. But this is less important then how you weld it. If you are doing edge to edge outside corners, you may want to put a piece of large aluminum angle behind the weld. And clamp two other large aluminum angles to the outside of the aluminum as well. A quarter inch back from the area to be welded. This will give you the type of weld that people go "How the heck do they do that?".If you are going to be doing fillet type welds. You can definitely use a non-gas lens cup very small. A five or four can work well. You have to leave the tungsten outside the cup though. It stays very clean. This will keep your weld very narrow. That should be enough to think about for now. Ha-ha.       Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:Shifterkart, if you are not too familiar with 5052, you will find you'll like it as a material. 5052, .090 is what I make fuel cells with for boats, and some trucks. It bends well, it is basically the strongest grade of common aluminum that takes a bend easily, without much worry of cracking. It is a marine grade aluminum. I use either 5356 or 4043 filler. Ususally, I am using 5356. I think 4043 flows better, but the overall strength is a bit higher from 5356. I usually run the amps set at 110, and I just use the pedal to control how much heat I work with. I would assume the cleaning/ balance would be in the 65 range, like Dave said, the cleaning pattern will get wider the higher you push that balance. I don't know if you can adjust frequency with that machine. If you can, I run my frequency about 80-90. Any more, the bead gets really narrow, and sometimes it tends to hump up a bit. If you don't have that adjustment, then your frequency will probably be 65-75, which works fine, too. The lower the frequency, the lower and slower the braap braap sound of the welds. At 80-90, it is a little sharper. Brap! Brap! Anyways, if you are doing long runs, start with a few tacks, then a few more, then fill in the gaps. 5052 welds nicely. You will see good results with it. Good luck!! Paul.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Alcoa charts say 5356 filler on 5052, 5356 has higher ductility then 4043 due to 4043's high slilcon content.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Alcoa charts say 5356 filler on 5052, 5356 has higher ductility then 4043 due to 4043's high slilcon content.
Reply:According to the ESAB Welding Filler Data Materials book it shows 5356 across the board except in the max ductility catagory were it shows 5654. --Gol'
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormick JrThe most ductility in the weld itself, is from the 4043. 4043 replaces what heat takes from aluminum. 4043 is known to stretch. Sometimes to much if you grind the weld off. But if you leave it on, and most do, then 4043 is great. 1100 hundred serious aluminum is almost pure aluminum and you can weld it with 1100 if you are going to anodize it, or 4043 if you are going to use it for structure. If 5356 was a more elastic material it would be recommended as an elastic filler for 1100 and 3003 material, the most elastic of the aluminum materials. But it is not. It is recommended as a strong or high tensile weld filler for 3003. http://www.weldingwire.com/datasheets/aluminum/4043.pdfhttp://www.harrisweldingsupplies.com...on=Custom&ID=7Sincerely,William McCormick
Reply:Makoman, by all means post the correct info but you're wasting your time trying to debate/explain things to william mccormick. he's viewed as a nutcase by some, personally i think he's the perfect internet troll- posting incorrect/dangerous infomation to annoy/start flame wars while never rising to the abuse that is directed his way and (just possibly, maybe) they will go somewhere else to get the attention they crave Shifterkart,you probably won't be able to eliminate the etched (cleaned) zone with a transformer based machine- it polishes off easily anywayyou don't need 'advanced panel options' to make good welds. weldors make the welds (good or bad), advanced panels simply make some jobs easier/faster. the AC balance determines how much EP oxide cleaning occurs. you need enough to give a clean/fluid puddle- the finished bead should be shiney without any black bits in it. if the autobalance feature provides this then fine. the easiest way to discover the effects of AC balance would be to run some beads on some scrap. run various beads at various balance settings (start with maximum EN- biased to penetration) and gradually increase the EP. note the differences in puddle behaviourusing the largest cup possible is finean oversized tungsten can have negative effects but they're subtle comparred to a tungsten that melts because it's too small. arc wander can occur if the tungsten is too big but tip preperation will also affect this.
Reply:Thanks for all the feedback. Good info.I am having problems with this project. On scrap I can get welds that are what I need with a reduced etch zone. I turn the ac balance to almost full penetration use a red tungsten and blast it with about 140amps to start and quickly let off the heat and fill as fast as I can with a huge 1/8 fill rod. So my samples look good, and stand up to some destructive testing.The problems start in the jig. The jig is made from 1/4 steel plate, angle, etc. I was also having a problem with warping. We are welding tabs to a 20 x 30 sheet of .090 so it wants to move around to say the least. In order to handle warping problems I used a lot of creative clamping with 1in thk ally plates between the clamp and the part. The warping is gone, as I intended the ally is soaking up heat, but the negative affect is I am having a hard time getting the puddle going, even with a full 140amps. I also suspect the steel jig is soaking up a lot of heat. Pain in the asssssWelding the part on a flat welder’s bench is not an option, at least not at my skill level and understanding of welding and metals.I have also had intermittent problems with the tungsten splitting, this seems to be resolved by increasing the post flow and I think more importantly changing the gas cup if it becomes contaminated.I have to say, it is amazing that the 3/32 2% holds a tiny ball (like a ball point pen or smaller) with a 140amps pouring out it. For the most part it seems if I keep the tungsten from getting contaminated the tip holds.Another question, I have searched this forum a lot reading old post and it seems many like to wipe the parts down with acetone. Why acetone? We use alcohol. I have some acetone, and would certainly try it, if I thought the base metal had something on it that alcohol could not remove. Any input on the use of acetone?Thanks again,SK
Reply:Originally Posted by ShifterKartThanks for all the feedback. Good info.I am having problems with this project. On scrap I can get welds that are what I need with a reduced etch zone. I turn the ac balance to almost full penetration use a red tungsten and blast it with about 140amps to start and quickly let off the heat and fill as fast as I can with a huge 1/8 fill rod. So my samples look good, and stand up to some destructive testing.The problems start in the jig. The jig is made from 1/4 steel plate, angle, etc. I was also having a problem with warping. We are welding tabs to a 20 x 30 sheet of .090 so it wants to move around to say the least. In order to handle warping problems I used a lot of creative clamping with 1in thk ally plates between the clamp and the part. The warping is gone, as I intended the ally is soaking up heat, but the negative affect is I am having a hard time getting the puddle going, even with a full 140amps. I also suspect the steel jig is soaking up a lot of heat. Pain in the asssssWelding the part on a flat welder’s bench is not an option, at least not at my skill level and understanding of welding and metals.I have also had intermittent problems with the tungsten splitting, this seems to be resolved by increasing the post flow and I think more importantly changing the gas cup if it becomes contaminated.I have to say, it is amazing that the 3/32 2% holds a tiny ball (like a ball point pen or smaller) with a 140amps pouring out it. For the most part it seems if I keep the tungsten from getting contaminated the tip holds.Another question, I have searched this forum a lot reading old post and it seems many like to wipe the parts down with acetone. Why acetone? We use alcohol. I have some acetone, and would certainly try it, if I thought the base metal had something on it that alcohol could not remove. Any input on the use of acetone?Thanks again,SK
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Ok real quick here. Silicon content in aluminum lowers ductility...real basic. 4043 is NOT used on 1100 and 3003 due to the silicon content in the intermixed area ending up at a dangerous level for cracking issues. 4043 is usually a band-aid filler used way too often when a person lacks the ability to use the correct filler material. If you have ever welded and planished sheet aluminum, you would see the result of this. 4043 tends to easily crack durring planishing, 5356 and 1100 do not.
Reply:Originally Posted by ShifterKartThanks for all the feedback. Good info.I am having problems with this project. On scrap I can get welds that are what I need with a reduced etch zone. I turn the ac balance to almost full penetration use a red tungsten and blast it with about 140amps to start and quickly let off the heat and fill as fast as I can with a huge 1/8 fill rod. So my samples look good, and stand up to some destructive testing.The problems start in the jig. The jig is made from 1/4 steel plate, angle, etc. I was also having a problem with warping. We are welding tabs to a 20 x 30 sheet of .090 so it wants to move around to say the least. In order to handle warping problems I used a lot of creative clamping with 1in thk ally plates between the clamp and the part. The warping is gone, as I intended the ally is soaking up heat, but the negative affect is I am having a hard time getting the puddle going, even with a full 140amps. I also suspect the steel jig is soaking up a lot of heat. Pain in the asssssWelding the part on a flat welder’s bench is not an option, at least not at my skill level and understanding of welding and metals.I have also had intermittent problems with the tungsten splitting, this seems to be resolved by increasing the post flow and I think more importantly changing the gas cup if it becomes contaminated.I have to say, it is amazing that the 3/32 2% holds a tiny ball (like a ball point pen or smaller) with a 140amps pouring out it. For the most part it seems if I keep the tungsten from getting contaminated the tip holds.Another question, I have searched this forum a lot reading old post and it seems many like to wipe the parts down with acetone. Why acetone? We use alcohol. I have some acetone, and would certainly try it, if I thought the base metal had something on it that alcohol could not remove. Any input on the use of acetone?Thanks again,SK
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Alcoa charts say 5356 filler on 5052, 5356 has higher ductility then 4043 due to 4043's high slilcon content.
Reply:So far, half of this all leaves me scratching my sack.
Reply:[QUOTE=hotrodder;160094]Makoman, by all means post the correct info but you're wasting your time trying to debate/explain things to william mccormick. he's viewed as a nutcase by some, personally i think he's the perfect internet troll- posting incorrect/dangerous infomation to annoy/start flame wars while never rising to the abuse that is directed his way and (just possibly, maybe) they will go somewhere else to get the attention they crave QUOTE]So I see, thanks for the warning.
Reply:I like the 5356 filler, plus if you have an alodine treatment or anodize the 4043 won't match up with the 5052.MILLER 330 AB/PMILLER GOLD STAR 130KUBOTA BX24CASE MINI HAY PRESSBENCH MILLHYPERTHERM 45BABY HOSSFELD
Reply:[quote=makoman1860;160288] Originally Posted by hotrodderMakoman, by all means post the correct info but you're wasting your time trying to debate/explain things to william mccormick. he's viewed as a nutcase by some, personally i think he's the perfect internet troll- posting incorrect/dangerous infomation to annoy/start flame wars while never rising to the abuse that is directed his way and (just possibly, maybe) they will go somewhere else to get the attention they crave QUOTE]So I see, thanks for the warning.