Welding 3/16" mild steel sheet metal question.

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Im useing a forney C5 220V AC buzz box. Im welding 3/16th mild steel sheet metal. Just doing practice beads. Im useing forney 5/32" 6011 electrodes, and 160-180 amps. I keep sticking pretty bad. Id like to also add that they had been in the weather for about 6 months. Any advice on a better electrode and amperage to make this go a little smoother or am I at the most advantage possible, but I just suck?Last edited by Ezalycasaid; 12-20-2011 at 04:46 PM.
Reply:5/32" rod is pretty big for steel that thin. I'd run 3/32" rods myself, probably 7014 or 7018AC. I don't run AC so I'd have to hunt up the specs on what settings to run. I'd start at the middle of the suggested range and adjust from there. If I had smaller rods, 1/16" or 5/64", they would also be good choices for thin metal..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:6013 was made for down hill sheet metal.Its worth a try.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:DSW, I am normally in agreement with you, but your post is a little off I think.  Yes, I agree with the 3/32, but I would most normally grab a 1/8 6011, 6013, or a 7018 on 3/16ths.I would run about 145-165 on a 5/32 - 6011 rod.  I may run colder on the thinner metal, but only if I didn't have a 1/8 rod.Last edited by Scott Young; 12-20-2011 at 05:22 PM.
Reply:Does the fact that the electrodes where out in the weather matter or is that not really a big concern? Im just asking because with one electrode I was able to weld a decent bead without it sticking, but not with any of the others. I dont seem to be burning through anything with the larger stick though.
Reply:Originally Posted by EzalycasaidDoes the fact that the electrodes where out in the weather matter or is that not really a big concern? Im just asking because with one electrode I was able to weld a decent bead without it sticking, but not with any of the others. I dont seem to be burning through anything with the larger stick though.
Reply:Scott I was thinking more that someone needing to ask this question would be better served running smaller rods than larger ones from a control stand point.  I've usually found guys have an easier time if they can run a smaller rod a bit higher than "normal" compared to running a larger size on a lower setting or moving faster. Looking back at the post I guess I was thinking about lap joints for some reason, but I don't know why. Probably thinking "sheet metal"  when I was writing the 2nd part rather than 3/16"..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I understand you now.
Reply:when i used to work for a company that made ovens for hostess we welded the sheet metal about that thickness with 1/8 6011 around 75-85 ampsMiller Xmt 350Lincoln Ln-25Ahp 200xSmith Gas Mixer AR/HTig is my Kung FuThrowing down dimes and weaving aboutInstagram http://instagram.com/[email protected]
Reply:I ended up going to a welding supply store and asked them what they suggested for me to start learning on for welding 3/16". They gave me 5/64 6013. I rand it first on 60 Amps, then on 70. Then on 65. 65amps seemed to be the sweetspot for me. I found out that if I go from my body and away, I was able to make a much cleaner weld. I also found that lightly holding the middle of the stick gave me %100 better movement. Im not good at it or anything yet but I am noticing DRASTIC imporvements over the 5/32 6011 rod on 180amps. I also learned what 65 amps feels like going through your body. I have another question though. I burn through a single rod in about a 6" long weld. Is that normal?   Also thank your guys for your suggestions and info.
Reply:Originally Posted by Ezalycasaid I have another question though. I burn through a single rod in about a 6" long weld. Is that normal?   .
Reply:Originally Posted by David R6013 was made for down hill sheet metal.Its worth a try.David
Reply:Remember, 6013 is a good looking rod but no penetration. 6011 doesnt look good but gets the penetration. Something to remember when you go to welding on your 4 wheel truck frame. Harold
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWProbably about right depending on the joint you are doing. In general, it's usually fairly common to get between 6" and 8" of weld from one rod.No picts?
Reply:Originally Posted by WelderskelterRemember, 6013 is a good looking rod but no penetration. 6011 doesnt look good but gets the penetration. Something to remember when you go to welding on your 4 wheel truck frame. Harold
Reply:I tried taking a couple of pics. All came out blurry. My camera just doesnt focus cleary with how close I have to be to take the pics. My welds are only 3/16 wide if that. Im noticing Im getting a decen amount of splatter. How do I get rid of that?
Reply:Couple of tricks to get better picts. 1st if you camera has a macro mode ( usually a flower symbol) use that, If not, then back up and then zoom in on the area you want to focus on. Later you can crop the extra area of the pict out before you resize. Most newer cameras will have plenty of detail at 4or 6' zoomed in after you crop and resize. A few examples from another thread I did else where on getting beter detailed picts.Pict 1) Tape shot with my Nikon on aperture manual set at F4 at about 4'.Pict 2) Cropped detail of 12"-18" at 4'.Pict 3) Tape shot with my Nikon on aperture manual set at F4 at about 20'.Pict 4) Cropped detail of 12"-18" at 20'.Edit: unfortunately It looks like all I have are the small picts on this computer, not the full size ones. In the picts from 20' you could easily read the 1/16" markings on the tape in the cropped pict. That 20' pict was actually clearer and had more detail than the one taken  at 4' with the same settings.Last edited by DSW; 12-20-2011 at 10:29 PM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Thanks for the info DSW. Ill give it a try once the camera charges.  I know ive asked alot of questions but I have more. 1 how do u reduce splatter? 2 when people normally say CUT the weld and see what kind of penetration u have, what do u use to cut it with? I used a cut off saw and all it did was kinda mold the metal when the saw passed through, so I really didnt see all that informative of a view.
Reply:To reduce splatter, it is either to many amps or to long of an arc. There is no point in cutting yours welds until your are able to run a nice looking bead.
Reply:Long string iof comments but for AC machines if you are buying E 6011 try to get E 6011p which has extra potassium to make it easier to run AC.  E 6011 can be soaking wet and the rods will still run... not recommended but they still will weld decent.  Really for all around work E 6013 is a good choice.  1/8th electrodes are fine for 1/8 thick material all the way up using multiple passes.
Reply:Ok well I got some 3/32 6011 today and I think Im haveing alot better results. The 5/64 6013 was a nice easy stick to get to look pretty but as u all already know I didnt get any penetration. I got a few welds done today with the 3/32 6011 and what I guess u could call 2 welds of the 5/32 6011 with 170 amps. (not quite sure the exact amps) Im useing an old Forney C5 plug and play. So theres just a 170-185 plug in. The welds on the left are with the 3/32 6011 and the right is the 5/32 6011E. I have no idea if the 3/32 is E or P. Cant find that on the box, or stick. The left welds were done with the stick angled and pushing forward away from my body and I was also kind of pushing down into the metal.. It just made me feel like i was doing more when I did it. These are the only two CLEAR photos I could get. Attached ImagesLast edited by Ezalycasaid; 12-21-2011 at 03:37 PM.
Reply:Was able to find one pic of the 6013 from yesterday. Bare with me though Ive only been doing this for an hour and a half. Attached Images
Reply:Ok a few pics of what I think are my best welds. Just off of being pretty though. It was done with a 5/64 6013. On 1 1/2" 1/8 wall Hrew Steel tubing. I was at 50-60 amps and did a nice slow weeve all the way through. Attached Images
Reply:Definitely an improvement over the 1st picts. You could probably slow down a bit more and tighten up you circles a bit. As far as your technique, you want to drag when you stick weld, not push like you described in your post. The ripples should all be even. In many cases you can see the individual circles where you moved forward too fast and then circled and then moved again. You shouldn't see individual circles when you do it right.Personally I'm not a huge fan of 6013. It's OK for some things, but I usually find 7014 is a little easier for most new welders to learn with. You can basically drag the flux along the plate keeping the flux in contact with the plate as it burns down. If you have the amps right, and travel speed right, the slag peels up right behind you with minimal chipping. 7014 is a bit stronger than 6013 and stores better than 7018. Use up the 6013 you've got. It's also a good learning rod and is bit better for thinner materials for learners.As far as your motion, I doubt you really used a "weave" from the picts. I'd guess you were making cursive "e's" or small circles from what I can see.  A weave is usually closer to a figure 8 or a zig zag, depending on the personal technique and is usually a bit wider than you have. I'm split. Teaching I prefer to do straight stringers, where you simply drag the rod forward at a slow even pace with almost no motion at all. However I frequently find newer welders simply can not seem to weld that slowly for some unexplained reason. They seem to want to be in too much of a hurry. Then small circles or e's work better. It forces them to slow down and spend more time in the same place.Pay very close attention to what's going on at the tip of the electrode. You want to ignore the arc and learn to see "around" it, watching the puddle and learning to differentiate between it and the slag. Most guys I help, learn to develop what I refer to as "timing patterns" rather than learn to read the puddle. That will get them by ok on flat and horizontal, but they crash and burn on vertical and overhead until they learn that. Don't worry too much about that now, just be aware of what you want to watch out for. At some point you will have an "Ah HA"! moment, and it will all of a sudden start to make sense. Good luck..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWDefinitely an improvement over the 1st picts. You could probably slow down a bit more and tighten up you circles a bit. As far as your technique, you want to drag when you stick weld, not push like you described in your post. The ripples should all be even. In many cases you can see the individual circles where you moved forward too fast and then circled and then moved again. You shouldn't see individual circles when you do it right.Personally I'm not a huge fan of 6013. It's OK for some things, but I usually find 7014 is a little easier for most new welders to learn with. You can basically drag the flux along the plate keeping the flux in contact with the plate as it burns down. If you have the amps right, and travel speed right, the slag peels up right behind you with minimal chipping. 7014 is a bit stronger than 6013 and stores better than 7018. Use up the 6013 you've got. It's also a good learning rod and is bit better for thinner materials for learners.As far as your motion, I doubt you really used a "weave" from the picts. I'd guess you were making cursive "e's" or small circles from what I can see.  A weave is usually closer to a figure 8 or a zig zag, depending on the personal technique and is usually a bit wider than you have. I'm split. Teaching I prefer to do straight stringers, where you simply drag the rod forward at a slow even pace with almost no motion at all. However I frequently find newer welders simply can not seem to weld that slowly for some unexplained reason. They seem to want to be in too much of a hurry. Then small circles or e's work better. It forces them to slow down and spend more time in the same place.Pay very close attention to what's going on at the tip of the electrode. You want to ignore the arc and learn to see "around" it, watching the puddle and learning to differentiate between it and the slag. Most guys I help, learn to develop what I refer to as "timing patterns" rather than learn to read the puddle. That will get them by ok on flat and horizontal, but they crash and burn on vertical and overhead until they learn that. Don't worry too much about that now, just be aware of what you want to watch out for. At some point you will have an "Ah HA"! moment, and it will all of a sudden start to make sense. Good luck.Im having a little bit of an issue really seeing anything other then the arc due to how dark my welding sheild is. Its just a Harbor freight auto darkening and its on about 13 or 12 out of 13 darkness. Should I put it a little brighter or still leave it at 12, I didnt know how much brighter I could make it and still protect my eyes.Last edited by Ezalycasaid; 12-21-2011 at 08:52 PM.
Reply:Even a shade 9 will protect your eyes from UV damage. You may see spots just as if you stared at a light bulb however. You need a shade that's dark enough to be comfortable, yet light enough so you can see where you are going. Some times going up or down a shade or two may make a difference. Usually a shade 10 is considered "standard" and you go from there.Keep in mind everyone's eyes are different. What works for me may be too dark or light for you. Also the hood will make a huge difference. If you get the chance, see if someone will let you try their  better hood. You'll probably see a huge difference in clarity.I usually use a 10 or 11 with mig, and an 11 or 12 with stick. Whether I'm inside or outside and how bright it is will change what I use as well as how many amps I'm running. To me a shade 12 at 60 amps would be way too dark. For that I'd probably run a 10 and then adjust from there.Also with stick, be sure to get some spare cover lenses and change them frequently. Don't run the hood with out them, or you will F up the AD filter. New cover lenses are cheap, that's the point, they are disposable. You want to keep the AD lens itself scratch free and spotless behind the cover lens. Treat it like an expensive camera lens. Don't use paper towels to wipe it with, or try and wipe off grinding dust. you'll scratch the lens. This applies to both the outer and inner surfaces. I have one AD hood a friend was using on one job. He pulled out the interior cover because it was a little dirty, but then left the hood face down when he was grinding. The sparks burned little pits in the AD lens itself. That's the reason the cover lens was all F'd up in the 1st place. After that there was no way to "fix" the problem short of a new AD lens..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSW ...I have one AD hood a friend was using on one job. He pulled out the interior cover because it was a little dirty, but then left the hood face down when he was grinding. The sparks burned little pits in the AD lens itself. That's the reason the cover lens was all F'd up in the 1st place. After that there was no way to "fix" the problem short of a new AD lens.
Reply:I got some 7014 AC only and 7014 AC/DC in 3/32". Also got some 7018 AC 3/32". I can get 7014 AC in 5/64 but I have to order it. are the 3/32" 7014s gonna be small enough for 1/8 to 3/32" mild steel sheet metal?
Reply:Originally Posted by EzalycasaidI ended up going to a welding supply store and asked them what they suggested for me to start learning on for welding 3/16". They gave me 5/64 6013. I rand it first on 60 Amps, then on 70. Then on 65. 65amps seemed to be the sweetspot for me. I found out that if I go from my body and away, I was able to make a much cleaner weld. I also found that lightly holding the middle of the stick gave me %100 better movement. Im not good at it or anything yet but I am noticing DRASTIC imporvements over the 5/32 6011 rod on 180amps. I also learned what 65 amps feels like going through your body. I have another question though. I burn through a single rod in about a 6" long weld. Is that normal?   Also thank your guys for your suggestions and info.
Reply:Originally Posted by EzalycasaidI got some 7014 AC only and 7014 AC/DC in 3/32". Also got some 7018 AC 3/32". I can get 7014 AC in 5/64 but I have to order it. are the 3/32" 7014s gonna be small enough for 1/8 to 3/32" mild steel sheet metal?
Reply:Thanks for all the input and advice DSW. I got 4 welds in today.  First and second pics are of  5/64 6013. The first one I did was about the same speed as before, the second I slow WAY down, looked at just the puddle and watched it devlope behind the arch.( I adjusted my helmet to 11 instead of 13) I also did a 'draging' motion instead a pushing motion.  The next ones are of the 3/32 7014. I went pretty slow on both and used a "draging' motion. The 7014 started to hang down below the tubing though. The last pic is of the weld sticking down on from the inside of the tubeing its on the top, its the bright silver. U cant see it very well but its sticking down about 3/16". All of this is on 1/8" mild steel tubing. The 6013 was with 50-60amps and the 7014 was around 65-75amps. Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by EzalycasaidThanks for all the input and advice DSW. I got 4 welds in today.  First and second pics are of  5/64 6013. The first one I did was about the same speed as before, the second I slow WAY down, looked at just the puddle and watched it devlope behind the arch.( I adjusted my helmet to 11 instead of 13) I also did a 'draging' motion instead a pushing motion.  The next ones are of the 3/32 7014. I went pretty slow on both and used a "draging' motion. The 7014 started to hang down below the tubing though. The last pic is of the weld sticking down on from the inside of the tubeing its on the top, its the bright silver. U cant see it very well but its sticking down about 3/16". All of this is on 1/8" mild steel tubing. The 6013 was with 50-60amps and the 7014 was around 65-75amps.
Reply:Looks like a good start man. I think you should practice some flat butt welds, just grab to pieces of 1/8 or 3/16 and butt them together and weld. Practice that and try and break them apart. Travel speed looks a bit out there too. Seems like the beginning is too fast, but then the end of the weld isnt fast enough..HTP Invertig 201Lincoln Idealarc SP250Miller 180 AC StickBy farmall:They should have held the seagull closer to the work, squeezing evenly for best deposition.
Reply:Before you go any further, start thinking about preparing your substrate a little better fo welding, even with arc you have considerable surface rust to deal with, get it clean with a grinder then try again and post the results.
Reply:You should get some 6"x6" by 1/4" thick or thicker plates and just run bead after bead and lap them by 1/2. Once you fill it up then turn it 90 degrees and run some more beads. also you can get 2 pcs of 2" angle and put them tegether to form and "X" and work on filling ea section in a different position. Stick welding skills a built on repetition so you need to get busy and burn a lot rod.
Reply:Got to weld about 10 joints together. All 3/16" mild steel sheet metal. Pics are of 3/32 7014.  All broke in half, I think it was because of poor penetration. These didnt get half the penetration as the 6011 did. Attached Images
Reply:Pics are of the 3/32 6011. Got ALOT better penetration with these. Well atleast I think this is what better penetration is. I cracked some in half. The ones that arent cracked in half are the ones I couldnt Break. They still look bad but they seem to hold ok. The bent piece is done on the back and front of the metal and was bending the metal but the weld didnt seem to want to budge. It was only about an inch wide weld, and the pieces are about 4-1/4"s long each. So I was able to get plenty of leverage when trying to break the welds. Attached Images
Reply:No great surprise here. 6011 is a deep penetrating rod as you noticed. 7014 is a medium penetrating rod. Part of your is is joint design. With a but joint on thicker metal, you either need to gap the plates, or better yet bevel one or both sides of the joint. You simply can't just weld on top of two plates butted together and get a good weld most times.The general progression of welds at the tech school on 3/8" plate is Single welds on flat plate (no joint)Overlapping welds on flat plate ( no joint, cover 1/2 the last bead with the next one)Lap jointT jointOutside corner ( inside edges of plates touch so the two plates form a V at the outside cornerBeveled but joint ( both plates beveled 22 1/2 deg with 1/8" land, 3/32" gap between the plates)You don't move on from one to the next until you can get at least 3 in a row to pass inspection. Once you do all the joints in flat, you move on and start over in horizontal, followed by vertical and then overhead..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Got some welds in today, I started getting some pieces beveled and blew out my cut off saw, so I tried some 7018 welds and I did ok. Then I had to switch it up and try something else. I tried welding 3/16" steel sheet metal to 1.5"OD x .120" wall REW steel tubeing with 3/32 6011. I basicly stayed on the 3/16" untill I got a decent puddle and then made a quick swing up the 1/8 tubeing and then back down. I know I still got ALOT of time left to get good at it but this is what I was able to do. First pic is of the 3/32 7018. The rest are of the 3/32 6011. Attached Images
Reply:You need to go back to basics and follow DSW progression he posted. Skipping steps in learning is only going to hurt you. By looking at your lastest pics you are long arcing your 7018. You should keep track of your hours that you are welding and post that time along with your pics. Most CC course will have around 100 hrs of lab time or the course of the semester and most of that is learning the basics.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jay OYou need to go back to basics and follow DSW progression he posted. Skipping steps in learning is only going to hurt you. By looking at your lastest pics you are long arcing your 7018. You should keep track of your hours that you are welding and post that time along with your pics. Most CC course will have around 100 hrs of lab time or the course of the semester and most of that is learning the basics.
Reply:Originally Posted by EzalycasaidOk thanks. Right now Im in between 1:45 and 2:00 hours of actual ARC time. Most of my time is being takin up by just cutting, and grinding metal. With the 6011 welds I seem to be blasting through the 1/8 pretty quick, should I turn the heat up on those too and just go over from the 3/16th to the 1/8 faster?Also I take all of my pics after I put the pieces in water to cool them down, then hit them with the slag hammer and a wire brush. Does that make a difference in appearance as far as heat goes???
Reply:Your filet welds to the pipe show some signs of undercutting. Fairly typical for someone just learning a filet weld. Frequently it's due to rod angle and exactly where you are aiming you rod, as well as movement speed and rod manipulation ( if using any). Round surfaces compound many of these items. You have to constantly change the rod angle in reference to the center of the pipe as you go. On flat, if you are using a 45 deg angle to the joint and a 15 deg drag angle to the puddle, you simply keep those the same as you move down the weld joint simply moving the rod in as it burns down. On a round surface like you have, you keep the drag angle the same, but need to constantly keep swinging the rod around the center of the pipe to maintain that angle in reference to the short section of pipe you are welding. If you don't, your drag angle changes. It's harder on small pipe than it is on larger pipe as you have to change angles and swing faster. While doing all this you still need to keep moving the rod in as it burns down, and with pipe to plate, keep that same 45 deg angle between the base plate and the vertical surface.  If instead two tubes welded together, this would change just like the drag angle does, except you would also be changing weld positions between say overhead, to vertical to flat for example... all at the same time no less. No big surprise most places have you learn the basics on flat plates 1st before moving on to tube/pipe..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I did a decent amount of practice today on some 3/16 mild steel sheet metal.. Did some 3/32 7018 wich went really crappy. Then swapped it over to some 3/32 6011 at 80-90amps. Got some that Im proud of based on looks. Id say Im at about 3:00-3:30 hrs of actual arc time. Also got some pics of the artifact Im useing to weld with. Attached ImagesLast edited by Ezalycasaid; 12-27-2011 at 07:06 PM.
Reply:After all those I swapped to 95-105amps on the same 6011. I didnt like the results of these. Today didnt come without its injuries though. Shocked myself, Cut my finger pretty good, and got hot slag in my eye even with my safety glasses on. Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by EzalycasaidAfter all those I swapped to 95-105amps on the same 6011. I didnt like the results of these. Today didnt come without its injuries though. Shocked myself, Cut my finger pretty good, and got hot slag in my eye even with my safety glasses on.
Reply:6010/11 is a whip rod which means that through its progress it should be moved in a back and forth action, two steps forward and one step back. It will create the stack of dimes look that you see with Al beads done with tig. The next time you run 6010/11 start your bead then whip forward 3/8" then go back 3/16" and let the puddle form a circular shape then repeat the whip. The whip forward will be brief just maybe a one count then whip back. The aggresive digging action can punch a hole through thinner plate and whipping allows the weld puddle to cool briefly.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jay O6010/11 is a whip rod which means that through its progress it should be moved in a back and forth action, two steps forward and one step back. It will create the stack of dimes look that you see with Al beads done with tig. The next time you run 6010/11 start your bead then whip forward 3/8" then go back 3/16" and let the puddle form a circular shape then repeat the whip. The whip forward will be brief just maybe a one count then whip back. The aggresive digging action can punch a hole through thinner plate and whipping allows the weld puddle to cool briefly.
Reply:Originally Posted by EzalycasaidOk a few pics of what I think are my best welds. Just off of being pretty though. It was done with a 5/64 6013. On 1 1/2" 1/8 wall Hrew Steel tubing. I was at 50-60 amps and did a nice slow weeve all the way through.