what's the technique for running 6010 downhill?

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I have a test coming up in a day or so and I was told it is 7018 all the way out and 6010 downhill.I have ran alot of 6010 uphill,not down.I was out cooking some rod trying to figure it out and the best technique I could find is tilting the rod at about 25-30 degrees pointing up and just dragging it with no weave.Is this correct or should I be weaving a touch?The root was so so but it was my first try and I think I will be able to do better on the next plate.then again I was useing 3/8 plate with a "V" groove and all I had was 3/32nd rod.any help would be much appriciated.DDOGIf it's too . get an office jobLincoln wp225g7 Lincoln 250 idealarcFrankenstein O/A set-up Weld-tech  tig set-upLincoln sp 175 plus profax  arc gouger
Reply:i think your teacher needs to back to school for welding if you are doing v grooves down hill with 6010 root and 7018. are you sure you heard right --Gol'
Reply:yup I even asked "are you sure it's 6010 downhill?" and he said yup and alot of guys are failing.It is 2 seperate tests.1 of them is a 7018 root and fill and cap the other is a 6010 downhill all the way out.I am pretty sure that the 7018 test has a backer strip but not sure about the 6010 plate.If it's too . get an office jobLincoln wp225g7 Lincoln 250 idealarcFrankenstein O/A set-up Weld-tech  tig set-upLincoln sp 175 plus profax  arc gouger
Reply:i tried doing 6010 downhill and i always seem to have got little pinholes throughout the weld. when i was working at this one place, i thought they said for 6011 they changed the polarity so you could run it downhill alot better. i don't know though. i never had to do a 6010 downhill on a v-groove plate test. seems kind of weird.
Reply:I thought the same thing also.I know 6010 is a d/c+ only rod so changing polarity won't help me any.the test is not for school I graduated weld school 22 yrs ago.The only thing I ever ran down hill is mig pulse arc.I don't know it's weirdIf it's too . get an office jobLincoln wp225g7 Lincoln 250 idealarcFrankenstein O/A set-up Weld-tech  tig set-upLincoln sp 175 plus profax  arc gouger
Reply:no weave is correct !  offshore pipeline out here is where downhill roots are done.. its almost dragged like 7018 with a slight whip only about the thickness of the electrode. with it being vertical. start perpendicular to the floor to with a minus 5 to 10 degrees max   aka. 5 to 10 degree drag angle ..... the whip is not always used just dragged thats how i do it good luck.63' Lincoln SA200 2008 miller trailblazer 302fibre-metal pipelinermiller camo BWEand all the guns and ammo a growin boy needs
Reply:Thanks usmc thats what was looking the best to me.the root was not tied in at my start and stop but I knew it wasn't gonna be I didn't feather the stop out.If it's too . get an office jobLincoln wp225g7 Lincoln 250 idealarcFrankenstein O/A set-up Weld-tech  tig set-upLincoln sp 175 plus profax  arc gouger
Reply:All of the straight 7018 tests I have done had a backing strip (run uphill naturally). Yes 6010 is a downhill (or also called downhand) rod originally designed for use in pipeline welding. About 90% of the pipelines in the oilfield where I grew up and broke out are welded with 6010 all the way out and downhill. The codes I have read and used (usually ASME or API, and no I don't have them available to identify as I left them in storage in NM and haven't had the chance to retrieve them, and they were given to me by an Exxon/Mobile construction superintendent who was also the only certified welder around for some years) for piping specified 6010 being run downhill, but the contractor can develop and qualify their own procedure for meeting the code. That is why some require uphill and some require downhill (uphill is the more difficult to do correctly, but if you can do one correctly it's pretty easy to make the switch with the key being enough heat to do the job and blow the root through). This is how I put a root pass in with 6010, and I use this technique for both uphill and downhill. The first rule is to use all the heat you can stand. I start the bead with the electrode at about 15 degrees forward until I get it going then roll it up to about 90 degrees to the weld holding this position in relation to the bead until I finish the electrode or tie into the start of the next portion. I keep the electrode pressed pretty solid against the bevels on the workpiece keeping a short arc and forcing it to blow through. If you have it going right you can't even see the arc, but see a small flame coming out of the keyhole. I usually run the hotpass at the same setting as the root and tilted a bit forward as I go. There are many techniques and you will only get them through practice. I normally use 1/8th electrodes for root and hotpass on anything over two inch. When using 3/32 I tend to use a circular motion. You might be getting the porosity with the 6010 due to too long of an arc, but it could be for any number of reasons. I have never had that problem so it's difficult for me to ID the cause. 6011 is run using DCEP as is 6010. On a vertical down root on plate I keep the rod pointed up on a pretty good angle which blows the bead in and up. Using 1/8th 6010 for the hotpass on pipe or plate I don't use any weave. There is a definite trick to doing both, but once yo get it down it's pretty easy to do.Last edited by Jolly Roger; 02-25-2008 at 09:31 PM.Reason: left something outThe difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:the other thing that come to mind is that the fire needs to blow out the back.... this sounds bad but it is not. the arc length is very short when rinning the root.  J.R. mentioned this when adressing the porisity issue  ..... good luck P.S.   as for the no penetration at the start try to allow the arc to stablize before you actually start to weld it will come with timeLast edited by usmcgremlin; 02-25-2008 at 09:37 PM.63' Lincoln SA200 2008 miller trailblazer 302fibre-metal pipelinermiller camo BWEand all the guns and ammo a growin boy needs
Reply:Thanks a ton fellas. I will cut and bevel some more plate tomorrow and cook a bunch more rod when I get home and like they say practice, practice, practice.  If it's too . get an office jobLincoln wp225g7 Lincoln 250 idealarcFrankenstein O/A set-up Weld-tech  tig set-upLincoln sp 175 plus profax  arc gouger
Reply:Good luck, hope this helps you out.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:o.k I have been cooking some rod and it is getting better,but I got to thinking????Is 6010 down usually done open root?or is the plates pretty much tight?I can get a decent root pass except for a little undercut on the backside on the edges.I keep a real tight arc and watch the fire in the keyhole or am I maybe running too hot?I have the rod tilted about 5 degrees.I was trying straight in but my key hole got too big for me to control it....Man I wish I had a camara...grrrrrrrrr  any suggestions?Thanks again,DDOGIf it's too . get an office jobLincoln wp225g7 Lincoln 250 idealarcFrankenstein O/A set-up Weld-tech  tig set-upLincoln sp 175 plus profax  arc gouger
Reply:When doing non-code I always have an open root the same size as the rod I'm using. Non-code with backer I've run up to a 1/4" root gap but that's 7018 all the way out. In code work you don't have a choice...it's spelled out for you.Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:Originally Posted by ddogo.k I have been cooking some rod and it is getting better,but I got to thinking????Is 6010 down usually done open root?or is the plates pretty much tight?I can get a decent root pass except for a little undercut on the backside on the edges.I keep a real tight arc and watch the fire in the keyhole or am I maybe running too hot?I have the rod tilted about 5 degrees.I was trying straight in but my key hole got too big for me to control it....Man I wish I had a camara...grrrrrrrrr  any suggestions?Thanks again,DDOG
Reply:vertical.I wish I had the codes for the test so I can practice exactly what it is instead of guessing.I was just told 6010 vertical down.didn't say open root,backer plate,what gap and land,I can say after 5 lbs of rod my hot pass and the cap look great...lol still a little trouble with the root though.I cleaned the back of the plate like the front I ground back about 1 1/2" from the bevel.I think I may be running too hot.If it's too . get an office jobLincoln wp225g7 Lincoln 250 idealarcFrankenstein O/A set-up Weld-tech  tig set-upLincoln sp 175 plus profax  arc gouger
Reply:if you are doing a V groove then you need a land and root gap. Put a 3/32 land and a 3/32 root gap.  Run either 1/8 or 5/32 6010. Better to use the 5/32 rod and run it a bit hot. 5 to 10 degree drag angle is good and if your keyhole is opening up then angle the rod away from keyhole.
Reply:Back when I was doing pipe all the time I used strips of steel banding for spacers or a 3/32 rod using the backing strip spacers for uphill and the 3/32 rod for downhill.  I would tack two of them together and use them for my gap. On the vertical down I would use the bare end of a 3/32 electrode with about a 3/32 land and a 1/8th 6010 or 6011 electrode running at about 120 amps. You can get away with a tighter gap going uphill than you can downhill. Having a landing is critical to getting a good bead on the inside. I think I had more trouble getting the open root down that I did learning to run 7018 uphill.I had to adjust my technique today. I always kept the rod rip pressed hard into the bevels. Tried it for the second time today on my new machine with it in pipe mode (first time for that) and stuck the rod through it. No indicator of any kind for amperage just 1 - 10.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Used to save my old plastic cover lens to set the gap for downhill stringers. About the only time I would run uphill stringers was on cement lined pipe and I used 3/32" 7018 to keep from burning out the gaskets. The gap was set by the thickness if the gasket, about 1/32" of an inch. Cement lined pipe is a pain in the a$$ to put a stringer in without messing up the gasket.If the gasket isn't right pretty soon you have a leak to fix.
Reply:I spent 2 weeks in a downhill pipewelding class not too long ago.  Class was taught to meet API code 1104.  Most everything I've read jives with what I was taught for welding 6" dia sched 80 steel pipe.  From memory:1/8" 6010 for the root.  1/16" +/- 1/32" root face(land) and 3/32" root opening.  Open root, no backing strip.  If I remember correctly, I ran the root pass at about 85 or 90 amps DCEP.  YMMV.Start on a feathered tack weld, with a slight drag angle.  Strike the arc on the tack, 1/4" from the edge of the tack.  Long arc and travel quickly to the edge of the tack to pre-heat and improve tie-in.  Bury the rod in the root opening once a key-hole opens at the edge of the tack.  Travel downhill as fast as possible, dragging the rod along the bevel.  Maintain the keyhole, with the width the same as root opening.  Little or no arc is visible from the face-side of the weldIf the key-hole opens up, it's ok to switch to a push angle and/or travel faster.  Go as fast and push as much as needed to maintain a narrow keyhole.If you travel so fast that windows(gaps) form in the root, keep going.  At least with downhill pipewelding, you'll fill in those windows with the 6010 hot pass.  The hot pass burns right through and makes those windows dissappear.Be ruthless in brushing/grinding to remove slag from the toelines of the welds.  Also, keep lens cleaner handy because the smoke from running so much 6010 is going to black out your hood really quick.Hope this helps.
Reply:That is as good a tutorial as I've ever seen on running stringers.
Reply:I've watched from inside the pipe as the hotpass is run and you can actually see the stringer bead being pushed further out into the pipe.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Thanks, but the compliments should go to my instructors and welding school.Root passes were pretty easy to learn, but I never did get the hang of running downhill cover passes with 3/16" rods.  There's just too much puddle running everywhere to keep track of.  I've been impressed with the teaching I've received at Hobart's welding school.  I've got 6 weeks or so to go, and the only thing that makes me uneasy is the stuff I don't know about working in the field.  The welding I've learned I'm very confident in.  I'd like to find work welding pipeline, but it's what I don't know about that business, besides the welding, that makes me hesitate.  I think I'm going to start out by finding a job welding pipe in a chemical plant or refinery in order to pick up some practical experience before trying my hand out in the field. Originally Posted by OldtimerThat is as good a tutorial as I've ever seen on running stringers.
Reply:A DAB, I had to figure that out on my own but that is exactly how I do it. If you want to pipeline I think you will have to master 3/16" rod first. You might want to learn some of the things you don't know about it before you make up your mind. Pipelining is a different world and from what I saw of it not for me. If you wouldn't mind falling down on your knee and making the same weld all day long day after day I guess it would be OK. Any thing repetitive becomes boring to me real quick and I can't stand boring. There are some other things to consider about it too. Go watch them work and talk to some pipliners before you make up your mind. If you think it's for you it pays well.
Reply:Thanks for the advice Oldtimer.  I hear what you're saying.  The repetitive nature of pipeline welding does concern me.  I've been snooping around on the web to hear what the folks who work in that industry have to say.  I've also talked to so folks who do maintenance and repair on heavy equipment, and I'm considering this as well.  It doesn't seem as repetitive, and might be an easier way to start out on my own.  For certain, there's more work in SW Ohio in the construction industry than there is in pipeline welding.  Originally Posted by OldtimerA DAB, I had to figure that out on my own but that is exactly how I do it. If you want to pipeline I think you will have to master 3/16" rod first. You might want to learn some of the things you don't know about it before you make up your mind. Pipelining is a different world and from what I saw of it not for me. If you wouldn't mind falling down on your knee and making the same weld all day long day after day I guess it would be OK. Any thing repetitive becomes boring to me real quick and I can't stand boring. There are some other things to consider about it too. Go watch them work and talk to some pipliners before you make up your mind. If you think it's for you it pays well.
Reply:Ddog, sorry for hijacking the thread.  To get it back on track, I remembered a couple other things worth mentioning.While running the root pass with 6010 downhill, you may notice the rod burning off unevenly.  This can cause you to favor one side of the root, resulting in undercut on the side not favored.  If it's bad enough, and if the hot pass doesn't push the root out enough to correct this situation, you could end up failing on the root inspection.To correct this problem, twist the rod while traveling until the arc appears to be centered in the root opening.  Depending on the quality of the rod you're burning(flux coating thickness, and how centered the filler metal is inside the flux coating), you may have to twist the rod back and forth to keep the arc centered.If the rod is good, and lady luck smiles, you may not need to do this at all.  But my recollections are it's random luck.  Some rods burn evenly, and some do not.  Just wanted to let you know there's a fix for this problem.It's funny, but running 5/32" didn't present any problems.  I used it almost exclusively for all the subsequent passes after the root.  But the times I practiced putting the cover on with 3/16" rod, it just didn't feel comfortable.I suspect I was feeling pressure to get prepared for the test in the class, so I didn't spend enough time practicing with the 3/16" rod.  I think I could pick it up without too much trouble if I spent some more time on it.Reading pipefitter's thread about running 6013 reminded me that I didn't mention that the fill and cover passes should be run using a slight forward whip and pause motion.  Some side-to-side motion is also acceptable, although it shouldn't be necessary with the larger diameter rods(5/32" barely, and 3/16" not at all).Last thought, for those of you who stick weld, but have never run downhill, I recommend practicing it; even if you're constrained not to run downhill at work.  It's much faster, and when you switch back to running uphill, everything will seem like it's happening in slow motion.  I think downhill 6010 is just as fast as MIG welding.Put simply, I think learning to run a downhill stick weld made me a much better welder.  My ability to watch the puddle and react is much better after being forced to accelerate my reactions during downhill welding.  FWIW, learning to MIG weld also helped in this regard.  I don't really care for MIG welding, even though I can do it.  I find that the pace is too fast, and the margin for error is too small, compared to stick welding or TIG.-Dave Originally Posted by OldtimerA DAB, I had to figure that out on my own but that is exactly how I do it. If you want to pipeline I think you will have to master 3/16" rod first. ...