Lunar Lander Prototype - Help Needed From Space Enthusiasts

admin

Some background information first.Hello everyone, this is my first post and it is an outreach for help for an exciting new open source space program. The group that I represent is called CSTART which stands for Collaborative Space Travel And Research Team. CSTART is a totally volunteer group of space enthusiasts who are in the early stages of developing a system capable of landing one human on the Moon. This is a long term project and we need to find skilled people who can help us design and build hardware that will fly in space. Here are some links so that you can check us out:http://cstart.org/about/http://cstart.org/forum/http://cstart.org/faq/http://cstart.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_PageThe specific project that we are preparing to attempt is the production of a lunar lander prototype. The prototype will be used to assess construction techniques and hardware integration along with drop tests to analyze the shock absorption system and structural fatigue. The lander will also serve as a testbed for a computer controlled rocket control system (RCS) that can maneuver the lander in 3d space. We already have concept drawings that outline the basic structure, but it will be up to those who choose to work on it to engineer the system the way that they see fit. Since this is a group of welders your primary task would be to build the metal frame. After that is completed then other individuals would use their skills to integrate other hardware like computer systems and communication radios. Simply put, you will be designing a piece of hardware that may land the first human on the moon in more than 40 years. Please feel free to ask any and all questions that you might have about this project. You are also all invited to join our forums at http://cstart.org/forum/, this is where all of the discussion happens at. Welcome aboard!
Reply:We do have a fund raising system in place so you may be able to receive funds to offset material costs.Ideally we want this to be built by a group of several people who can meet regularly. Having multiple people in a workshop really helps projects like this move forward.
Reply:Is this spam?  I really can't tell....
Reply:No, but it is a request for help on a project. We are simply trying to find fabricators who would enjoy working on this project with us.
Reply:LOL.  You can't be serious?     By the way- in your first picture, you attached/drew the landing gear legs backwards- the foot pads should be DOWN when the legs unfurl.  Seems like an ambitious project for a group that can't even get the CAD model correct.  Good luck with reaching the moon.  Lincoln AC225 & MigPak 140, Lincoln Magnum SpoolGun, Miller Spectrum 375-X Plasma, Syncrowave 200 TIG, Millermatic 252 MIG, Miller Digital Elite, General 7x12" horiz/vert bandsaw, 3' box/pan brake, 20 ton press, milling machine, 12x28 lathe, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by jmtebbensIs this spam?  I really can't tell....
Reply:Yeah, unless there's a good seatbelt, I won't be volunteering as the "driver"!!!   Lincoln AC225 & MigPak 140, Lincoln Magnum SpoolGun, Miller Spectrum 375-X Plasma, Syncrowave 200 TIG, Millermatic 252 MIG, Miller Digital Elite, General 7x12" horiz/vert bandsaw, 3' box/pan brake, 20 ton press, milling machine, 12x28 lathe, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by Rocket-To-The-Moon. . .The specific project that we are preparing to attempt is the production of a lunar lander prototype. . . .
Reply:Originally Posted by AquafireLOL.  You can't be serious?     By the way- in your first picture, you attached/drew the landing gear legs backwards- the foot pads should be DOWN when the legs unfurl.  Seems like an ambitious project for a group that can't even get the CAD model correct.  Good luck with reaching the moon.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterBetter put a 5 point harness on that seat..
Reply:Originally Posted by AquafireLOL.  You can't be serious?     By the way- in your first picture, you attached/drew the landing gear legs backwards- the foot pads should be DOWN when the legs unfurl.  Seems like an ambitious project for a group that can't even get the CAD model correct.  Good luck with reaching the moon.
Reply:Ok so i dont really know a whole lot about space travel , but to me that looks like a lifeguards chair with some balloons underneath it... is someone supposed to sit on it all the way up to the moon, does it just float or are there rockets on it... what about the electronic part of things like navigation, gps, steering, acceleration etc... i saw a similar thing on mythbusters but it was just balloons and a lawn chair, looked like it worked pretty well
Reply:Looks like really primitive structure... Max $2000... And you can't find some shop which would build it?...
Reply:ahhhh.. So it's more of a swivel than just an elbow-style hinge.   Okay.  I'm picturing that episode of The Simpsons where "launchmaster" Homer has 2 of his homemade rockets explode in his face.  While about to start the countdown for his third (new and improved) creation he tries to instill confidence in his kids by stating (and I love this quotation):  "The word UNBLOWUPPABLE is thrown-around a lot these days..."   I hope you've designed your craft to include unblowuppability.Lincoln AC225 & MigPak 140, Lincoln Magnum SpoolGun, Miller Spectrum 375-X Plasma, Syncrowave 200 TIG, Millermatic 252 MIG, Miller Digital Elite, General 7x12" horiz/vert bandsaw, 3' box/pan brake, 20 ton press, milling machine, 12x28 lathe, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by NomandLooks like really primitive structure... Max $2000... And you can't find some shop which would build it?...
Reply:Originally Posted by Rocket-To-The-Moon. . .Also the goal is for everything to be primitive. Everything is designed according to our design philosophy, one of which is "the simplest thing that can possibly work". . . .
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepBTW - What's the proposed earth-end gravity escaping launch system?
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepBTW - What's the proposed earth-end gravity escaping launch system?
Reply:Everything we are doing is a calculated plan to garner support and new members. By having a test lander frame we will be able to carry out some of the more "exciting" stuff first so that we can release videos and pictures to help stir interest. It is a lot easier to get attention when you have a lunar lander than when you have 100,000 lines of computer code.Also, to get from Earth orbit to Lunar orbit we plan on using the lander's engine in combination with fuel carried in an "orbital bus". The lander, bus, and crew module will be launched as one stack. Once in lunar orbit the astronaut will transfer to the lander and undock from the rest of the stack. After the landing and ascent from the surface the lander will rendezvous with the rest of the spacecraft and then proceed back to Earth. Prior to reentry the crew module will separate from the rest of the stack. We haven't settled on a land or a sea landing yet, but we plan on using a parasail parachute so that the capsule can fly to a soft landing.Last edited by Rocket-To-The-Moon; 01-01-2010 at 07:17 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by BruceTSHowever there are so many flaws in that design, I wouldn't know where the begin.
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepBTW - What's the proposed earth-end gravity escaping launch system?
Reply:http://www.southparkstudios.com/clip...77/?tag=RocketMaybe Mexico can build you the rocket for cheap?
Reply:Actually there are a number of privately funded organizations in the race for non-NASA space travel.  IIRC, it's the Russians that have 40M (?) tickets for future outerspace rides on sale.Rocket-To-The-Moon's group may be participating in this http://space.xprize.org/press-releas...mpts-scheduledMM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:..... Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:duaneb is dead on.  There is a lot of money out there for people to try and put something together that can be used for future civilian space travel.  The first prize was the Ansari X Prize of $10 million that went to Burt Rutan of Scaled Composite for building a craft that was capable of reaching the edge of space and returning safely twice.  They were pretty amazing flights.  There were major corporations to backyard volunteer groups who participated.  Along with the current Lunar Lander prize, which duaneb linked, there are even prizes for creating a space elevator and/or various components."Houston, we still have a problem." This hobby might get a bit spendy, methinks. No gas stations are open between the moon and earth this time of year. Gonna need one big fuel tank, maybe a couple jerry cans on the fenders too. Attached ImagesCity of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Hi there, I am another member from CSTART, I hope I can clear up some misconceptions and give you guys a clearer idea of the state of affairs.CSTART is not competing in the Northrup Grumman Lunar Lander Challenge, but the gentleman who mentioned that competition was right to do so, because this is the sort of thing you should be thinking of the understand CSTART.I understand that the idea of hobbyist space projects might seem crazy at first, but that is only because the mainstream media has done a terrible job of covering the fact that a second space race is already underway, based on small private companies and dedicated hobbyist teams.Some of you may know about Burt Rutan and Scaled Composites winning the Ansari X-prize in 2004 for being the first team to put a human being into space (>100 km altitude) with a reusable craft (SpaceShipOne) twice within a set timespan, but this is only a small slice of the story.Did you know a Canadian team were only narrowly beaten to that prize by Rutan?  The da Vinci Project built a full scale mockup of their WildFire spacecraft, and did a few test burns of their rockets.  Unfortunately, after the X prize was won the group lost its sense of purpose and direction and fell apart - but they got incredibly close to putting a man in space, and this is even more impressive because, unlike Scaled Composites, a commercial company backed by a wealthy legend in the industry, the da Vinci Project was an entirely volunteer effort - about 600 people contributed their time and effort by the end of it.5 weeks before the X prize winning flight of SpaceShipOne, the Civilian Space Exploration Team, a small group of hobbyists who were sponsored by a local sports store, became the first amateur group to launch a suborbital rocket (which was unmanned).  Their rocket engine cost them about $20,000 - which sounds like a lot of money but (i) it can be done a lot cheaper and (ii) it's not too hard to convince 1,000 people to donate $20 on PayPal over the course of a year or two.More recently (December 2009) a small New Zealand company achieved the same feat, albeit much more cheaply by using hybrid rocket technology (as used on SpaceShipOne and the da Vinci Project, and which we plan to use if we do build our own booster).A group called Copenhagen Suborbitals in Denmark plans to take things a step further than these two groups and launch a person into space in a small and simple capsule using a hybrid rocket.  This is a low-budget, very simple project by only two main people.  The guys at Copenhagen Suborbitals are not crazy - one of them has already built the world's largest amateur-built submarine, and they have done a number of successful rocket test burns.  Check out their website!  The guys at CS, like CSTART, are working under an "open source" philosophy.  We have been in contact with them, they have offered to share all their data and experience with us and even invited us to visit their workshop - one of our members is planning to do so later this year.In addition to the Xprize for building a lunar lander, which has been linked to earlier, there is also the Google Lunar X Prize, which offers a $30 million prize to the first team to send back footage from a robotic lunar lander.  There are over 20 registered teams already (we have seriously thought about registering, but think it is probably too late in the game for us to have a good chance of winning), all of whom are taking the task seriously and have produced real working hardware on Earth.  Many of these teams are hobbyist groups, and one of them (Team FredNet) is even operating on an open source basis, like us.There's even another open source group who want to put a man on the moon, the Open Luna Foundation, who have done a bit more work than us at the moment, who we have been in contact with and expect to work with quite closely.To sum up, space definitely isn't a "big boys only" game anymore.  There are quite a few small companies and hobbyist groups active in basic spaceflight research today, and with big cash rewards for achieving "firsts", chances are there are only going to be more in the future.  These aren't groups of crazy dreamers, they are groups of people with backgrounds in engineering and science, people who have already done things like build their own airplans and submarines.  CSTART aims to be a similar group (right now we are very new and hence smaller and poorer - but this will change!).  We aren't idiots, we know that balloons don't work in space (those spheres under the lander are fuel tanks!  The spherical shape minimises surface area, and hence empty tank mass), we have spent the last few months reading a lot of material on previous moon missions (not just Apollo, also the Soviet plans) and we have done order-of-magnitude estimates (and sometimes more accurate, ones using computer simulation - we have a few programmers onboard) for most stages of the mission.  We have solid ideas, we just need to spread the word and get more talented people onboard.  This lunar lander prototype is part of that effort and is a genuine project, not some group of backyard nutters.So if learning that all of this amateur space work has been going on for years now has surprised and excited you and you think you might like to get in on the scene, consider giving us a hand.
Reply:Nice to see you here Luke.Last edited by Rocket-To-The-Moon; 01-02-2010 at 07:43 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Rocket-To-The-MoonNice to see you here Luke.
Reply:Sounds like a very interesting project. Seems to me that you need some more support in the Engineering department. I have designed a lot of my own stuff, and done some computer modeling on my own projects, but I wouldn't even begin to attempt to design complex structures for a space program. Frankly I don't know what kind of requirements you have when it comes to spacecraft. I think when you have a clearer vision of what you need then fabricators will be more willing to assist, versus asking what we think of your lunar lander/lawn furniture concept. Where is your program located?
Reply:That "lander" looks like a deer stand with great big balls added on under the seat.  Larry "I feel for the man who cannot spell a word more than one way."  by Mark TwainLincoln AC225-SLincoln Weldpac 100 Miller Matic 180 (auto set)Miller Spectrum 375 ExtremeMiller Spoolmate 100Victor Super Range II
Reply:Originally Posted by LarwynThat "lander" looks like a deer stand with great big balls added on under the seat.
Reply:I am going to keep watching this thread. Attached ImagesCharlie
Reply:Originally Posted by racinjason44Sounds like a very interesting project. Seems to me that you need some more support in the Engineering department. I have designed a lot of my own stuff, and done some computer modeling on my own projects, but I wouldn't even begin to attempt to design complex structures for a space program. Frankly I don't know what kind of requirements you have when it comes to spacecraft. I think when you have a clearer vision of what you need then fabricators will be more willing to assist, versus asking what we think of your lunar lander/lawn furniture concept. Where is your program located?
Reply:At first I just wanted to laugh at this but I have decided to instead offer a constructive critique. The poor sap riding the lander will have no protection against micro meteorites or a sudden solar flare. Building a space suit with enough armor to protect against these dangers has proves unreasonable to all the major space agencies. Hence they design landing craft to give explorers safe haven. Just my thoughts.And the lander legs will need some means of shock isolation lest a joint should fail upon touch down. Just another thought but uhhh.. I don't think mild steel likes the temperatures in space so aren't space craft construted of more exotic alloys? Point being you may be hard pressed to find the welding/ fabrication supplies at Home Depot.By the way, where are the space suits going to be procured anyhow? Or has that come up in the spitball sessions yet?Ranger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe
Reply:Originally Posted by lmauritsThe requirements for a "full blown" spacecraft are fairly demanding - you need a strong pressure vessel which can hold in about one atmosphere of pressure with near total vacuum on the outside, you need an aerodynamic outer structure which is strong enough to withstand the aerodynamic forces during launch (about 3g of acceleration for manned craft), you need a heat shield which can withstand thousands of degrees of heat during reentry and you need a radiation shield to keep the crew and electronics safe (although the structure of the pressure vessel is usually enough to take care of most of this).
Reply:Originally Posted by MrLeadManThe poor sap riding the lander will have no protection against micro meteorites or a sudden solar flare. Building a space suit with enough armor to protect against these dangers has proves unreasonable to all the major space agencies. Hence they design landing craft to give explorers safe haven.  Hence they design landing craft to give explorers safe haven.
Reply:DSW did a better job illustrating my own concerns than I did. Lets use a very simple analogy, If you take a camping trip into the deep woods most people take a tint. Tint=landing module, just my thinking, again all the points DSW brought up.Ranger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe
Reply:Originally Posted by Aquafireahhhh.. So it's more of a swivel than just an elbow-style hinge.   Okay.  I'm picturing that episode of The Simpsons where "launchmaster" Homer has 2 of his homemade rockets explode in his face.  While about to start the countdown for his third (new and improved) creation he tries to instill confidence in his kids by stating (and I love this quotation):  "The word UNBLOWUPPABLE is thrown-around a lot these days..."   I hope you've designed your craft to include unblowuppability.
Reply:Originally Posted by MrLeadManAt first I just wanted to laugh at this but I have decided to instead offer a constructive critique. Just my thoughts.A:And the lander legs will need some means of shock isolation lest a joint should fail upon touch down. B: Just another thought but uhhh.. I don't think mild steel likes the temperatures in space so aren't space craft construted of more exotic alloys? C: Point being you may be hard pressed to find the welding/ fabrication supplies at Home Depot.
Reply:Originally Posted by Rocket-To-The-Moon. . .By the way, I can totally understand everyone's skepticism, this is a huge undertaking for a group of volunteers. We are confident that it IS possible (albeit very unlikely) to do if we can get our team organized. We think that the entire system can be built for less than a few million dollars. Once we have the hardware then we are sure that funds will become available to procure a launch vehicle (rocket) for somewhere in the $40-50 million range.
Reply:i cant believe i just read all that...
Reply:Originally Posted by RojodiabloFor A; the baloons on the belly should do the shock absorption.
Reply:"Is there a chance the track could bend?"Lincoln AC225 & MigPak 140, Lincoln Magnum SpoolGun, Miller Spectrum 375-X Plasma, Syncrowave 200 TIG, Millermatic 252 MIG, Miller Digital Elite, General 7x12" horiz/vert bandsaw, 3' box/pan brake, 20 ton press, milling machine, 12x28 lathe, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by lmaurits. . .You can see quite a similar arrangement to our plan in this photo of Amradillo Aerospace's lunar lander "Pixel" (these guys are competing in the NG Lunar Lander Challenge) and also in NASA's Langley Lightest Lander plans (linked to above).
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWAll this only becomes complicated when you want to bring something back alive. The life support systems, heat, air, CO2 absorption, power, waste disposal etc are the complicated parts. All these also apply to your lander.
Reply:Would somebody please raise McCormick?This project could be right up his alley.Good Luck
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepWould somebody please raise McCormick?This project could be right up his alley.Good Luck
Reply:Nope, I'm thinking:Grumman +TIG +Aluminum +Math +Science =
Reply:I thought you wanted to send him home....My name's not Jim....