Using 7018s in DCEN

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I am a beginner welder working with pipe around the Ranch that is somewhat old, rusty and pitted in places.  I have a Lincoln AS 200 and 6011 and 7018 rods at my disposal.  There are some areas of welding these pipes together where I can't seem to prevent blowing holes in the pipe.  I've switched from the 6011 to 7018 rods and it's better, but still will go through.  This is even with the current turned down to 50A which makes starting really hard.Can I use either of these rods in the DCEN mode and get a shallower weld without holes?  Or, will these rods not work in this mode?
Reply:6011 may get you there.   Smaller rod is the way to go.  What size are you using now?If its blowing holes, less amps or smaller rod.  Is the Pipe CLEAN?   This alone may solve your problem.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Fit up can play a major role in this situation especially if your saddling the pipes. If you don't have one you can buy or easily make a template for this and make your life much easier. Make sure the areas your welding are clean and try running your 6011 downhill.
Reply:Is it drill pipe your using? Sometimes that stuff can become magnetized. Try wrapping your lead around it and see if that helps
Reply:Thank you all for replying,The rods I'm using are 1/8".  Going to a smaller rod would be a good idea, but I have 50# of these on hand now.Most of the pipe is clean, and if not, then I will brush it with a grinder/brush.I have a saddle template and this makes for much better fits, but doesn't stop my problem of blowing holes.  Granted, my technique is awful, but I'm having a time developing the proper technique if my setup is not right.The welder was set at 50 amps to begin with.  The owner put it there for this very reason.  The specs on 6011 rods recommend 80-130 amps, and even higher for the 7018s.To Hillbilly:  I am assuming the lead you are talking about is the ground.  Told you - I am a beginner.  I guess it would be pretty hard to weld if it were the electrode lead.  That was probably self explanatory.  Thank you.The effect I am trying to achieve is a shallower weld by reversing the leads to normal polarity.  This is not recommended for these rods, but I wondered what would happen.Thanks again for the suggestions.  Please keep them coming.
Reply:You sound like you are doing everything possible to make this job as hard as possible.1st you don't know how to weld and you pick some of the hardest material to work with, small round pipe. You almost have to weld out of position with pipe and you have to keep changing your rod angle as you go around the pipe. I'm guessing part of your issue is at some point you are long arcing your rods because you are not maintaining the right angle and arc length as you try to circle the joints. A fairly common mistake with guys learning to weld on round items like pipe. Also I often see guys hold a tight arc on one piece of a fillet weld and hold a long arc on the 2nd piece. That will cause issues if the side with the longer arc is the cut pipe with the thin edge. If anything try and keep the cut side closest to the rod if you can't keep an even arc on both. Unfortunately I doubt you have the skill and understanding yet to do much about this, but at least you might understand the issue if you see it.2nd You aren't really doing a good job with prep. A wire brush simply polishes rust, not remove it. You probably should prep with a sanding pad or grinding wheel to silver steel. Rust and crud will make striking and maintaining an arc tough even with the right amperage. You need a clean area not just where you are going to weld, but also where you attach the ground clamp. Also, the tighter the fit up, the better chance you will have on getting a decent weld. Zero gap should be your goal if you lack the skill to bridge gaps.3rd you are trying to run too big a rod, and then trying to do so at too low an amp setting. This will make keeping a consistent arc tough. Too close and you'll stick the rod. Too far and you won't keep the arc lit or it will dig too much. As said smaller rods are the way to go. A 10 lb pack of rods isn't all that expensive, and you will do better all around and in the end save.  3/32" or smaller rods would be a better choice. 1/16" or 5/64" might be the best choice since it will allow you the least amount of amps, yet still stay in the middle to upper end of the rod range, especially for someone whose trying to do this with very little skill. It may seem counter intuitive, but in many cases turning UP the amps and running faster can decrease issues, especially if combined with smaller rods that lay down less metal.Pick a rod that's easier to work with as well. 6011 is a deep penetrating rod and will burn holes if not used right. It's great because it can burn thru rust, but that same ability makes it hard to not blow holes in edges if you don't know what you are doing. You can fill with it because it's a fast freeze rod, but most newer welders can't accomplish this well. 7018 isn't a bad choice, but if the rods sit out and absorb moisture, they can run like crap and give you issues. If your 50 lbs of 7018 has sat open for awhile, chances are it's absorbed moisture from the air and will not run well even at the right settings. 6013 and 7014 are probably better choices. Personally I prefer 7014 for guys who are learning. You can simply drag the flux coating on the metal to maintain the correct arc length. It's a good medium penetration all position rod that is very easy to run once you get the basics down. I tend to find guys have an easier time than with 6013, but 6013 is a close 2nd.I understand the reasoning behind wanting to use up materials you already have on hand. You need to ask yourself if spending a few bucks to get the job done with a minimum amount of frustration ( and actually learning something in the process) is better than saving some money and spending weeks fruitlessly frustrating yourself doing everything as hard as absolutely possible and still not getting the job done..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:DSW,Point 1 - You are reading my mind.  I couldn't agree more with you.  The first thing I did was blow a hole in the steel by long arcing because I forgot to keep the rod at the same distance.  I understand what you are saying about keeping the cut side close.  I will practice this.  I got an automatic helmet to help me see what I am doing and that helped a lot.Point 2 - I 'm welding a whole lot of polished rust at 50 amps.  Gee, no wonder the frustration.  Never knew I could cuss so much.  Zero gaps is a little tough since my skill with a torch is not much better than my welding.  But saddling and fillers make it a little better.  I definitely need to learn how to weld gaps.I had actually thought about buying a small amount of rods that were better suited for this work, but wasn't sure what they would cost.  I bought the 50# of 6011 rods before I found the 25# box of 7018s.  I started using them and was a lot more pleased with my work (sort of).  I was sorry I got the 6011 rods but could not return them because I have already opened the box and used some before I found the 7018s. I am looking forward to smaller rods with the right flux on them.  I'll try for 3/32 7014s at first.  I will probably go through these pretty fast.Just a small point, but I changed the current to 80 amps with the 7018s the last time I worked on my project and the rods started soooo much easier.Thank you.
Reply:Till the skill set with the torch improves the skill set with a grinder maintains....08 Lincoln Ranger 250 w/Remote94 Lincoln G9 Pro68 SA-200 Red FaceLincoln 250 Idealarc w/remoteMiller 250 Syncrowave
Reply:The real key with any sort of welding is learning to read the puddle. It's tougher with stick because you also have to learn what is molten steel and what is molten slag and be able to tell the difference when looking at the puddle.You might find dropping back and working on the basics 1st will help. Get some 3x3 1/4" angle iron say 12" long and tack to feet on it so it rests with the V up and start running flat beads. Then tip it over so the V is side ways and do the same thing again and so on with vertical. This will eliminate at least the round shape and let you learn to read the arc and get the basics down. Once you can consistently lay decent beads in all positions you'll probably find your chances on pipe improve..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Farm fence is how I learned to weld pipe. You can run 6011 on DCEN downhill at 65-70amp, over well brushed rust. Lay your rod pretty far in the direction of travel so arc force is directed into the deposited metal. Move fast once the arc is started and a puddle is formed. 7014 is ok for good metal, but you have to learn to seen the puddle under the flux, I don't recommend it for beginners. You can see right through the thin slag on 6011 and its easy to get the puddle across both sides.
Reply:7014  and 6013 are recommended to run DCEN.  Tractor supply has 0ne pound packages of really small rod.  Read the package, it has recommended amps for the rod type and size.  Find one that says 60 amps.  It leaves a little room to work with your welder.  Running 1/8" on 50 amps is just aggravation.DSW knows what he is talking about, get some scrap and practice.  1/16  6013 vibrates in the stinger when I hold it.  No need to weave.  If you had the right rod and clean steel with good fitup it would be a breeze.  Howdoyagoferthat?Last edited by David R; 01-29-2012 at 04:14 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:OP,  You need to LISTEN to these guys..... they were kind enough to write out great answers...I am only going to drive home one point... How much money would it take to try a smaller rod ?  Like $5 , or $10 ?   Almost every hardware store and many auto parts store have some on hand... DSW is TOUGH.DSW is CORRECT. Why come to a place with really knowledgeable guys available and then not listen to their advice ?Does Not Compute.   But does make interesting reading of psychological traits in people.... LOLWeldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Yes, lots of really good advice (which is much appreciated).  Good to know that rods are so available.  Seems like the local AOC really likes to take my money.  I have always liked TSC.  I go into town every Teusday, so I'll look into getting something more practical for me to use on this project.  In the mean time DSW is right.  My angles are constantly changing and positioning is awkward for me.  So, I will just keep turning the project to keep my welding on top (as best I can).  Learning to read the puddle is going to be important.  Speed is difficult for me to judge.  Having changed the current to 80A is like starting all over again (but a little easier).  Thanks again, keep it coming, if I can absorb any more.  If not, I'll just keep reading them over again until it makes sense.
Reply:Originally Posted by mshearne.....So, I will just keep turning the project to keep my welding on top (as best I can). ......
Reply:OK guys,  I've gone out and bought a lb of 7014 3/32, and a lb of 6013 3/32.  I have run the 7014 at 80A and the 6013s at 50A.  Now, that coupled with the 1/8 6011 and 7018s, I have too many variables to work with and my head is really stuffed thinking about what's going on.The first variable I would like to work on is speed.  I've got some really ugly welds and I think this is one of the main contributors.  Should I be able to feel the steel I am welding together melt under the rod, or should it be melted by the time I get there?
Reply:Originally Posted by mshearneOK guys,  I've gone out and bought a lb of 7014 3/32, and a lb of 6013 3/32.  I have run the 7014 at 80A and the 6013s at 50A.  Now, that coupled with the 1/8 6011 and 7018s, I have too many variables to work with and my head is really stuffed thinking about what's going on.The first variable I would like to work on is speed.  I've got some really ugly welds and I think this is one of the main contributors.  Should I be able to feel the steel I am welding together melt under the rod, or should it be melted by the time I get there?
Reply:Go here http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us...olnElectric%293/32    6013 DCEN or DCEP  70 to 95 amps. 3/32 7014  DCEN or DCEP  75 to 95 amps.I run both on DCEN  Do as you wish.You need to be within those ranges or get smaller rod for your job.Let us know how it works out.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by mshearneDSW,Point 1 - You are reading my mind.  I couldn't agree more with you.  The first thing I did was blow a hole in the steel by long arcing because I forgot to keep the rod at the same distance.  I understand what you are saying about keeping the cut side close.  I will practice this.  I got an automatic helmet to help me see what I am doing and that helped a lot.Point 2 - I 'm welding a whole lot of polished rust at 50 amps.  Gee, no wonder the frustration.  Never knew I could cuss so much.  Zero gaps is a little tough since my skill with a torch is not much better than my welding.  But saddling and fillers make it a little better.  I definitely need to learn how to weld gaps.I had actually thought about buying a small amount of rods that were better suited for this work, but wasn't sure what they would cost.  I bought the 50# of 6011 rods before I found the 25# box of 7018s.  I started using them and was a lot more pleased with my work (sort of).  I was sorry I got the 6011 rods but could not return them because I have already opened the box and used some before I found the 7018s. I am looking forward to smaller rods with the right flux on them.  I'll try for 3/32 7014s at first.  I will probably go through these pretty fast.Just a small point, but I changed the current to 80 amps with the 7018s the last time I worked on my project and the rods started soooo much easier.Thank you.
Reply:Thanks David for the settings recommendation.  I will practice on DCEP on the pipe that I am actually welding on with the smaller rods.  Just laying beads.  When I get comfortable with this, I will switch to DCEN and compare behaviors.  Read another post where someone recommended how far I should be able to travel using a specific rod.  This will help tremendously with figuring out travel speed and angle.  Lot of good information here.
Reply:A rough estimate of how low a bead should be is roughly half the length of a rod. Running flat stringer(meaning using little yo no weave) you'll get further with 6013, about 5/8 of a rod length. Running vertical up, with a weave pattern to spread your puddle across the joint may shorten your overall bead quite a bit.
Reply:The PM's won't let me post a pict so I'll add  my answer to your question to your thread instead.It's easier to show than explain, but I'll give it a try with this picture. I'll use a simple "flat" T joint to save drawing the round parts of the pipe, just think of the rectangles as the pipe wall and it will make sense.In a perfect world the distance of the rod to both pieces is the same roughly. New guys seldom manage this however. Most times they keep the rod closer to one plate than another, (usually the the lower plate rather than the vertical one when welding flat) when doing a joint like this. The top pict shows the cut piece coming down into the solid piece. The rod is closer to the "lower" solid piece so you have a short arc there and thus less heat than at the vertical piece where you have a longer arc. ( fairly typical of what happens with a newer welder)The lower pict shows the opposite, the solid piece coming down into the cut piece. The rod is closer to the "lower" cut piece so you have a short arc there and thus less heat than at the vertical piece where you have a longer arc.With everything else being the same, chances are the top piece in the upper picture will get a hole because the long arc is closer to the cut piece, and hence more heat on an area that's easier to melt. ( ends always melt faster than in the middle of a piece.) If set up closer to whats shown in the lower pict, you will have less of a chance burning thru. Keep in mind the fact that the end of the cut piece is still the weakest point. If you move too far away from the joint even in the lower pict, the end will still get a long arc. You still need to stay in close to the joint. To stay in tight drag the flux on the rod right against the piece you want to keep the heat down on. Note that going around a pipe that's not as easy as it sounds.Rod angle also has a lot to do with what I'm some what refering to. A 45 deg angle to the joint should  get you an even arc between both pieces if you are aimed right at the corner. However often most guys will aim closer to one piece rather than the other. If you point the rod more at the upper piece, angle to the lower plate less than 45 like is shown in the picts, they tend to short arc at the lower piece and long arc at the upper one if this makes sense. It's a bit less noticeable when aimed too much at the lower piece, angle greater than 45 deg to the lower plate, if they are aiming at the corner. Having to keep pushing down on the rod as it burns down usually will help eliminate the long arc at the lower plate, but if they don't keep up then they long arc there as the rod burns back.I'm not doing a great job of putting this all in words unfortunately. I hope this makes sense. What I usually do to show some of this to students is run one rod ( usually 7018) and bury it as deep as I can in the plate to show a very short arc. Then I run a "normal" arc length, followed by one that's stupid far out to show how arc length effects the beads. I did a post to show this some where I'll see if I can't dig up the link.www.weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=58537As mentioned before, good fit up is critical. I know you are cutting with a torch. Cut the piece long, then grind to fit. If using a template, cut oversize, then remark and grind to the line for a perfect fit. There are also a bunch of threads here on coping pipe. ( coping is the term often used for this type of joint along with "fish mouthed") There are ways you can cut basic copes for 90 deg using 2 straight cuts with a saw, and then just grinding a bit. Lots of guys do this with an abrasive chop saw. Set the angle ( it's less than 45 deg but I'd have to look up the angles listed in one of the threads on this), then rotate the piece 180 and cut the opposite side. Then grind to fit. When you get the basics down it's easy. The tighter you get your joints the easier this will all be. Attached Images.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:DSW   DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:That makes perfect sense to me.  Thank you.To those following the posts, I had asked DSW about short arcing and long arcing the cut end of a pipe.  I seemed to me that all went pretty well (for me) as long as I just did the work.  But when I came to the cut end, i would get real careful with it trying not to blow a hole in it, and do just that.  the explanation above is exactly what I was doing and what I need to do to correct this problem.I found the link with your pics in it yesterday or so.  None of my beads look that good.BYW, thanks for the info on remarking a saddle.  That's just too logical.  Should have thought of that myself.  Duhhhhh.  (give me a Dinnozo slap on the head).Practicing has helped, even though I have gone through half of my 6013s.  Instead of using flat metal I have cut off a foot of 2" pipe, then cut it lengthwise in half with a torch and practiced on that.  This is the material I'm working with and I wanted to see how it burned in.Thanks again.