Running a dedicated power line???

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Does a strictly single phase 220 welder care which it line one and line two?  When I look into the breaker panel both lines coming in are black and the ground is bare.  The manual for the welder specifies when you install the plug which color should go to which blade for correct polarity.  Or is that just for dual voltage welders?
Reply:Doesn't matter the two legs will give you 208-220.I.B.E.W Electrician and Damn Proud of It !!!! .Virtus Junxit Mors Non Separabit http://www.shrinershospitalsforchildren.org/
Reply:Does not make any difference on 240 volt stuff. Either hookup is right. On three phase it does make a difference and that's why on three phase its black, red, blue.  for most three phase in USA. On three phase reversing any two will make the motors run the other way. But standard 240 volt motors the direction is set by connecting different motor leads inside the motor cover. On a welder is does not make any difference.
Reply:OK, nothing on the welder or in the manual says what size service I should provide for this.I unpacked the welder and it has a 10 gauge whip for me to install the plug of choice.  Doesn't a 10 gauge whip indicat that it requires a 30 amp service?  50 amp requires 6 gauge.  It makes a big difference in price for the wire.
Reply:"Nothing in the manual or with the welder tells me what power to use"LMAOObvious to see you haven't figured out yet that that's not all they're not telling you.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:All I know is it is a 220 volt welder and it has a 10 gauge whip so the question stands.Will I fry the 10 gauge whip before I pop a 50 amp breaker?
Reply:Originally Posted by stefuelAll I know is it is a 220 volt welder and it has a 10 gauge whip so the question stands.Will I fry the 10 gauge whip before I pop a 50 amp breaker?
Reply:I ain't gonna fry anything.  All I'm saying is, If the welder requires a 50 amp circuit then it has no right putting a 10 gauge whip on it.  It should have a 6 gauge whip.  It is now the weakest link in the chain.
Reply:I thought a whip is a lighter more flexible end section of lead usually ending in an electrode holder.It is hard to give you an answer as to what size supply wire to use without an amp output for a general idea.  I kind of would say if the wire on the welder for the input is 10 guage then use eight for the wires from the pamel for under 50 feet.  It is hard to believe that there isn't a tag on the welder and a few pages in the instructions as to the input current at a few different welding output amperages.  Any help phone #?  Does the manual tell you to use a 50 amp breaker when using 230 volt single phase?
Reply:Originally Posted by stefuelI ain't gonna fry anything.  All I'm saying is, If the welder requires a 50 amp circuit then it has no right putting a 10 gauge whip on it.  It should have a 6 gauge whip.  It is now the weakest link in the chain.
Reply:On the back of the welder there will be a nameplate or label showing input amps, volts and hz. It is probably near where the cord is. Or maybe on the bottom but I doubt it. The size of the cord has nothing to do with the size of the circuit needed, appliance and machine makers do not have to comply with the electrical code, they get their equipment listed and approved after testing by listing agencies like UL for example.Miller Challenger 172Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150Miller Maxstar 150 STLVictor 100CVictor JourneymanOxweld OAHarris O/ASmith O/A little torchNo, that's not my car.
Reply:Originally Posted by stefuelAll I'm saying is, If the welder requires a 50 amp circuit then it has no right putting a 10 gauge whip on it.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fab54Asking the kind of questions you are - and opening up an electrical panel and 'poking around' - the only thing you are going to fry is yourself. Good Luck!
Reply:Originally Posted by stefuelOK, nothing on the welder or in the manual says what size service I should provide for this.I unpacked the welder and it has a 10 gauge whip for me to install the plug of choice.  Doesn't a 10 gauge whip indicat that it requires a 30 amp service?  50 amp requires 6 gauge.  It makes a big difference in price for the wire.
Reply:For all the "nice guys" who think the OP should have been told exactly what to do....I'd like to point out that the OP never even mentioned what output machine he has.He never mentioned what type (tig, mig, stick) his machine is.He never mentioned whether it was an inverter or a transformer.He never mentioned his imput requirements (amps/voltage).  Even the cheap imports normally provide this information.  If he didn't get it, then his first step/call should have been to the manufacturer.We're welders (and some have a little electrical background) but we're not freaking mind readers.As with many things, ask a garbage question with no information, and you'll get garbage in return.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIII...we're not freaking mind readers.As with many things, ask a garbage question with no information, and you'll get garbage in return.
Reply:To all the "not so nice guys," I think it's reasonable to believe that the OP probably doesn't have some high powered nuclear propelled welding machine that requires a 3 phase, 480volt power source......I think looking at his post, a "reasonable" person could lend a bit of advice and shoot the guy down the right path of an estimate of what he needs.  I think a 50Amp breaker with #6 wire would pretty much cover anything he has.  IF the OP was a "welder" already, he'd probably not need to seek out advice here on this forum in the first place.    Is it really that  too terribly difficult to point someone down the right path, even if it's a "ball park" figure for a circuit breaker, wiring and amperage????Seriously, it's not that serious.  Somebody needs to chill out a bit and try to help the guy.  Hey, now there's an idea! Lincoln Power Mig 216Lincoln AC/DC-225/125Miller  625 X-Treme PlasmaMiller 211 Forney 95FI-A 301HF 91110Victor Journeyman O/PMilwaukee DaytonMakita  Baileigh NRA Life Member
Reply:You can't read into what the manufacturer supplied you with because the manufacturers have in house engineers that can spec. a smaller gauge size for a unit based on variables, like load, wire length, wire sheathing, etc and still meet UL. To just say ok it comes with 10g doesn't cut it, you will need to find the specs before you wire up.AC-180 Lincolnwelder circa '50's
Reply:Wire the outlet with #6 and a 50 amp breaker and be done with it. Should cover just about any 240 volt machine he would have, especially with #10 coming out the back of it.Hobart Airforce 625 plasma cutter.Snapon MM140sl Mig/Tig welder
Reply:WOW, a few here would rather put effort into ragging and ranting over answering  simple question.  I did not think I was out of line wondering why I should provide 50 amps of protection for a cord that should only carry 30 amps.  So if you want to rag on me for asking that HAVE AT IT.I did however find the answer from a more forgiving forum and it has to do with "duty cycle".Local "code" covers to the recepticle you are plugging the device into.  UL approvals cover the device and factory provided power cords. So lets say you have a device that requires a 50 amp service (which requires a 6 gauge supply wire) and the device has a 100% duty cycle, it would have to have a 6 gauge power cord.  Now I was not given the formula only the explanation but as the duty cycle decreases, the manufacturers are allowed to reduce the size of their connection wire.In short, if the manufacturer gets a smoking hot deal on a thousand foot spool of 10 gauge wire, all they have to do is reduce the listed duty cycle to conform to the UL formula and they are covered.
Reply:Well put
Reply:Originally Posted by stefuelIn short, if the manufacturer gets a smoking hot deal on a thousand foot spool of 10 gauge wire, all they have to do is reduce the listed duty cycle to conform to the UL formula and they are covered.
Reply:Originally Posted by stefuelSo lets say you have a device that requires a 50 amp service (which requires a 6 gauge supply wire) and the device has a 100% duty cycle, it would have to have a 6 gauge power cord.  Now I was not given the formula only the explanation but as the duty cycle decreases, the manufacturers are allowed to reduce the size of their connection wire.In short, if the manufacturer gets a smoking hot deal on a thousand foot spool of 10 gauge wire, all they have to do is reduce the listed duty cycle to conform to the UL formula and they are covered.
Reply:This is PRECISELY the type poster who buys the cheap chinese junk.He has yet to provide one tidbit of information that would allow other posters to help him out.Nuff said.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SuperArcIs it really that  too terribly difficult to point someone down the right path...Depends on useage.I run 6ga drop cords from my panel.  One 50 foot "main" drop, and two standby add-ons if I need to go out further up to around 100+ feet (two 25-30 foot 6ga drops).More expensive, but less voltage drop.  And I work outside, sometimes on days where the temp exceeds 100 degrees.  Heat is a real factor.  Ground temp in  the sun can exceed 120 degrees.It's a darn sight easier to use larger cable than push lighter gage wire, plain and simple.A welder seldom draws full current for long periods, it's not a steady load.  You can get by with lighter wire, but why bother?  I sometimes run at 175amps for extended periods, and don't pay too much attention to duty cycle.  It happens.  (A note to those who run small transformer welders.........you can weld till the lead or the stinger gets HOT to the touch, you've pretty much reached your max weld time without some cooldown)Something nobody has addressed is the welders appetite for power.  When you draw amps at a higher rate than the wire is comfortable with, you can damage the equipment drawing the power.  Common thing to burn up a power tool by using too light of an extension cord, tool heats up too fast.Bigger is better within reason I feel.As to the actual lead that comes with the welder..........   Sure it might be 10ga, but that wire is sufficient over a short distance, not a long run.  Feeding it with larger wire allows for voltage drop and heat buildup.And I'd stay away from GFCI breakers on all equipment that has high startup draw, or is subject to operating in a hot environment.  Unless they've improved them, the stupid things are lousy when it comes to spike loads.  You spend more time walking to the box to reset the breaker than working.Anyhow, that's my opinion  And it's free, and definitely worth what ya paid for it"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Sorry I've been away from you most understanding gents for so long.  I may have to eat crow here after reading NEC 630.11.  Now, I understand that that is the law but it is the biggest pile-o that I have ever read from a local, state or federal code book.  There is to many reasons that it shouldn't be done.  In my case, the 70 foot run is partially burried in walls where you can't see them.  What's to stop someone from driving a nail into the wall and into the wire.  I'll sleep better knowing the breaker will pop before the wire glows inside my walls.  Even if you clearly mark the de-rated plug as "welder only  30 amps" what's to stop some meathead from plugging something in that actually does require 50 amps.  If the plug fits, use it.  Anyway, I admit to being wrong but there's no way 10 gauge wire is going in my walls connected to a 50 amp breaker.  I spent the afternoon snaking that stiff-a$$ 6 gauge wire so it's a done deal.  Thanks for all the help and.....Don't forget to tip your waitress.Oh, almost forgotinvertermax input amps 42duty cycle 35% at max output
Reply:Originally Posted by stefuelWOW, a few here would rather put effort into ragging and ranting over answering  simple question.  I did not think I was out of line wondering why I should provide 50 amps of protection for a cord that should only carry 30 amps.  So if you want to rag on me for asking that HAVE AT IT.I did however find the answer from a more forgiving forum and it has to do with "duty cycle".Local "code" covers to the receptacle you are plugging the device into.  UL approvals cover the device and factory provided power cords. So lets say you have a device that requires a 50 amp service (which requires a 6 gauge supply wire) and the device has a 100% duty cycle, it would have to have a 6 gauge power cord.  Now I was not given the formula only the explanation but as the duty cycle decreases, the manufacturers are allowed to reduce the size of their connection wire.In short, if the manufacturer gets a smoking hot deal on a thousand foot spool of 10 gauge wire, all they have to do is reduce the listed duty cycle to conform to the UL formula and they are covered.