Cold saw vs. Dry saw vs. Abrasive saw.

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I have a HF 14" abrasive chop saw and it does eventually get the job done.  It has a heck of a wable no matter what blade it has on it.  When I get sick of the HF or want to cut an accurate angle I put an abrasive blade in my 16" RedStar 7 1/2 hp radial arm saw which is a pleasure to cut with in comparison.  I would use the Redstar (Circa 1947) all the time if it weren't for the mess.  (I do a lot of woodworking).Well today I finally bought a 3hp Walker Turner Radial arm saw (circa 1950's) to dedicate to metal cutting. The beast is about 700lbs and plenty beefy for cutting metal. Cragis list - $70.  I'm going to have to pull wire from my phase converter to the saw to use it as is with an abrasive blade.  The way the motor mounts on the Walker Turner is kind of unique for a RAS in that there is a plate that looks like it would be easy enough to mount any base mount motor on.  I am kind of thinking of mounting a gear reduction motor in the 40rpm - 80rpm range and make a cold saw out of it.  Another option would be to put a 1750 rpm motor on it and make it a Dry Saw.  One thing I haven't worked out in my mind yet is how to mount a blade on a motor or gear box shaft?Can anyone give me a comparison between a cold saw (40rpm - 100rpm) vs. a Dry saw (1000 rpm - 1700rpm)?  I know the cold saw would be more work because I would have to come up with the coolant system... table, pump, tank, etc.  I am thinking of making an auto feed for the carriage on the WT RAS so I can start it and forget it like a bandsaw.  I am also debating what to use to clamp the work down with.  I haven't found any suitable clamp on HF that I can adapt.  I am considering making my own clamp out of a pair of pipe clamps.  Or possibly just make my own material vise.  Or I am really kind of considering using a magnetic chuck.  I have an electrical magnetic chuck stowed in the attic the weighs a couple hundred pounds itself.  One of my considerations is the WT RAS has 24" of carriage travel.  I would like to make use of this and be able to clamp a fair sized piece of box steel.Anyone care to offer any thoughts?oughtsix
Reply:I dislike the dewalt dry saw, it throws out some knarly a$$ chips that like to stick in your clothes and skin, I like to use my porta band, some day I'll get a big band saw, if you have the know how I'd shoot for the cold saw, those are bitchin, but I don't know how you plan to make your own, I think there's more to it than slowing down the blade, I don't know for sure though"Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal"   -Henry Ford
Reply:I have been researching cold saws and dry saws.  From everything I have found a cold saw is low speed with High torque and coolant.  Add a really beefy chassis and you have a cold saw.  Auto feed seems like a good idea from everything I have read.  It sounds like most dry saw problems come from feeding too fast... but I haven't every used one so I really don't know.I am looking at a 2hp inline 12:1 gear reducer on E-bay for a very reasonable price.  But 146rpm seems a little high for a cold saw from everything I have read.For some reason most of the Cold saw blades I have come across have been high speed steel teeth instead of carbide... which seems a little funny to me.oughtsix
Reply:I've never run a true cold saw so I can't help there.I get this real cold feeling reading this however. I've seen enough incidents with general radial arm saws thru the years and seen a few guy attempts at cutting metal with improper tools like table saws, circular saws and a few other, where they really didn't quite get all the basics down before giving this a go. This just looks like a good chance to see high speed objects getting tossed around or large moving blades suddenly lurching forward to give me a warm fuzzy feeling about this. That saws old enough to be lacking many of the modern safety devises like anti-kickback pawls and some other things like safety shut downs that you might just want to slow down and start thinking about failure options.Since keeping the stock clamped firmly down will be one of the big safety things with this I'll make a suggestion even though this screams "run away, run away" to me very loudly. I'd skip the bar clamp idea. If you don't get both equally tight, you are only using one and I've seen standard clamps loosen from vibration in the chops saws often enough. My 1st thought was a heavy machinists vise from a mill. Used machinery shops, and rebuild places sometimes have these that are not accurate enough to use in a mill any more. They are designed to rigidly hold steel for machining, which is what you really are doing. You've got a BIG rotary horizontal mill with a slotting cutter. The only question is if you want to spend the $100 or so to get one or if you can find one big enough. (I'm not sure what you define "fair sized piece of box steel" as.) Lacking this, or if your a cheap F'k, I'd look at a wood workers vise. These are often rail guided with a single large turn screw and a large clamping surface. The rails usually will keep it straight so it will clamp evenly over the large area, and if you install a hex and crank like a machinist vice you can probably get some good leverage on an acme screw.Remember 16" dia even at low RPMs will have quite a high surface speed and with a gear reduction tons of torque. This thing will want to climb and plow thru material in the blink of an eye. If you've ever seen someone mishandle even a small radial arm saw you'll understand.Be careful. A cheap saw's not cheap, if it literally cost you an arm or a leg. At that point it's way too late to wish you'd spent thousands on this, instead of on medical costs that won't  bring the parts back..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by oughtsixI am thinking of making an auto feed for the carriage on the WT RAS so I can start it and forget it like a bandsaw.  Anyone care to offer any thoughts?
Reply:I bought a used Grizzly 6.5 x 9.5 band saw with built in coolant system off of craigslist for $400 because the guy said he couldn't get a blade to track. I know Grizzly has parts available and a tech support line you can call so I bought it. It had made a handful of cuts when I got it. I bought a new bi-metal blade and went at aligning the blade using the instructions from the 4x6 bandsaw list. In an hour, I had a great working bandsaw. It cuts like a dream..
Reply:i went with a grizzly saw too works great Attached Images
Reply:I have a Porter Cable dry saw and I haven't used my Milwaukee abrasive saw since except for one piece of hardened stock and some rebar. As Eyeball stated it does throw nice blue chips around but I just slip on an old jacket and face shield and start cutting. If you let the saw do the cutting and not force it the cuts are beautiful, straight and fast. The only cold saw I ever used must have had a dull blade because it was painfully slow and you had to hand on the arm to get it to cut.My $0.02Cut an MGB and widened 11" C4 Corvette suspension and LT1 Chevrolet power & 6 spd. Pictures here:Part 1http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,7581Part 2http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,22422
Reply:Save your money and don't buy the Dewalt cold saw.  Just got one 3 weeks ago and returned it after 25 cuts.  (2x2x1/8 tube steel) The vise is too light, the blades don't hold up well and if the vice slips and loses its grip (it will) it will jam and kiss the blade good by.  The blades are $150 to $210 ea.  A lot of band saws will do the job.  If you have a lot of cutting, the wet cold saw is the way to go.  I had one for years.  Just not light enough to pack to the onsite jobs. (easily)
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI've never run a true cold saw so I can't help there.I get this real cold feeling reading this however. I've seen enough incidents with general radial arm saws thru the years and seen a few guy attempts at cutting metal with improper tools like table saws, circular saws and a few other, where they really didn't quite get all the basics down before giving this a go. This just looks like a good chance to see high speed objects getting tossed around or large moving blades suddenly lurching forward to give me a warm fuzzy feeling about this. That saws old enough to be lacking many of the modern safety devises like anti-kickback pawls and some other things like safety shut downs that you might just want to slow down and start thinking about failure options.
Reply:P,S, I very very very much considered going the band saw route.  I am looking for accurate angles.  I really like the pivoting head band saws so I can put a long piece of stock in and cut an angle without having to rotate the entire saw base to accommodate the stock in my shop.  They aren't cheap though!I will see how the radial arm saw works out... I very well might end up with a horizontal band saw... some day.Last edited by oughtsix; 03-07-2010 at 08:40 PM.oughtsix
Reply:Originally Posted by oughtsixWhy don't they make "Dry" saws (~1500rpm) with coolant capabilities?  Wouldn't adding coolant to a carbide blade greatly extend the blade live?
Reply:A kick-back or climb in wood is scary and dangerous enough.  A big (BIG!) no-thank-you to having that happen in metal!  Yes the big ol' industrial beast RAS is big and massive and all.  But it was made to cut wood and similar, not steel!How in the heck are you going to control the blade/motor/carriage when cutting some steel?  Free-hand and try to hold on for the ride if (more like WHEN) a blade grabs and the motor/blade/carriage launches itself at you with multiple horsepower behind it?      And most anti-kickback pawls are made to dig into the wood surface when a kickback occurs (although there are some anti-kickback feed rollers that have the pawls internal to the rollers so that the 'grab' is in the roller and not from a pawl digging into the workpiece).  And most anti-kickback (external tooth style) pawls won't do squat on a piece of steel except skid and skip over the surface. Yeah, an abrasive chop saw is not a precision instrument.    Sometimes it is Good-Enough.  It is loud and kind of messy and not super precise, but it is pretty fast and can go through LOTS of things.Metal-cutting band saw, or a cold cut saw, or a mill.And some carbides on some materials may be made to cut dry, but other situations (carbide and the material being cut and the process/machines being used) may call for coolant/lubricant.  So, It Depends.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:For the headache and safety issues being brought up I think that you'd be much better off just buying one used.  I picked up a Haberle H300 at auction for $270, had to sink about $100 into new coolant, some misc parts and some cleanup but it works great now.  I'm told its about a $6000 saw new.I'm fairly certain that they use HSS blades so they can be resharpened easily.  I know the Haberle dist in the US resharpens blades.
Reply:Originally Posted by joedirt1966Why not get a 4x6 bandsaw?  They can be had for about $175.00 new (Harbor Freight with 20% off coupon).  I sold my 14" Milwaukee abrassive saw, purchased the 4x6 bandsaw (below) and never looked back (no regrets).  The bandsaw is quiet, has auto feed, and has a greater capacity than the 14" abrasive saws.A first project could be a better stand.  Add a coolant system later if you like. It's a very cheap but very effective cutting system.
Reply:Wicked Welder,I purchased all the parts for the coolant system and then never assembled it.  I use the little 4x6 dry and mostly for small stock (angle, tubing, etc.).  If you go to the 4x6 bandsaw forum at the following link you can look at different modifications to this saw (coolant systems, vises, stands, etc.).  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/4x6ban...s/album/0/listYou can also google search 4x6 bandsaw modifications.  There are some plans online for homemade coolant systems for these saws. (I don't have the link right now)  Grizzly has a complete coolant system for 149.00 at:   http://grizzly.com/products/7-Gallon...k-System/H8140
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseA kick-back or climb in wood is scary and dangerous enough.  A big (BIG!) no-thank-you to having that happen in metal!  How in the heck are you going to control the blade/motor/carriage when cutting some steel? Free-hand and try to hold on for the ride if (more like WHEN) a blade grabs and the motor/blade/carriage launches itself at you with multiple horsepower behind it?
Reply:Scored a new 3hp rated Hitachi VFD with single phase input capability on ebay last night for $100 + $15 shipping.  It will pay for itself in not having to run wire from my phase convertor to the saw.It looks like I am going to be able to try out a dry saw blade on my Walker turner RAS sooner rather than later.  I am thinking of buying a Morse Metal Devil 12" blade off ebay.  I think I came across some favorable remarks about this blade on this site but I need to do a little more searching before plunking down my cash.There are some Dewalt 12" dry saw blades on ebay also for around the same price.  Anyone want to give me a push towards one blade over the other (Morse Metal Devil vs Dewalt)?oughtsix
Reply:Double check the speed of that radial saw and make sure that the blade you buy is designed to run at that speed. The dry saws that I have experience with run at lower speeds than woodworking saws. You need to match the saw speed with the blade speed rating much closer when cutting metal. It won't cut well, if at all if it's turning too fast.CharleyMiller MM252Miller Bobcat 225NTMiller DialArc HF / DIY Cooler2 Victor O/A TorchsetsMilwaukee 8" Metal SawMilwaukee Dry Cut "Chop" Saw 5 Ton Wallace Gantry Various Grinders, Benders, etc.
Reply:You need 1500 rpm or less for most metal cutting blades.Morse is not the brand of the Metal Devil.  It's Freud, which is an Italian outfit.  I've really liked the Freud blades, but I know some guys have hated them.Jack OlsenMy garage website
Reply:oughtsix
Reply:The VFD (Variable frequency Drive) will allow me to slow the blade speed down to 1500rpm.oughtsix
Reply:Originally Posted by slodatIn an hour, I had a great working bandsaw. It cuts like a dream..
Reply:Originally Posted by oughtsixThe VFD (Variable frequency Drive) will allow me to slow the blade speed down to 1500rpm.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jack OlsenWill that reduce the torque?  I ask not because I know much of what I'm talking about, but because I tried using a router speed controller to slow down a miter saw to a speed appropriate for steel, and... it didn't work.  The blade just stopped.a radial arm saw for cutting steel.that just has 'bad idea' written all over it....man that just gives me the shivers --- with all due respect - putting an abrasive bladeinto a rad arm saw....is right up there with 'soup sandwiches'.i'm sure it's a wonderful radial arm saw - but it's still not a metalsaw no matter how good it is. i hope it,s for personal use only and you're not going to try to employ someoneand have them use it ? you could get seriously chased down in court on that one.so may more suitable ways to cut steel...please be careful
Reply:I have the JET 5 x 6 (HF sells the knockoff) that I have used extensively in race car fab (cages, headers............) and have had great luck with it. I do love that it can also be used vertical.  I liked it so much I bought one for my home shop. I recomend taking the small table that comes with it, and making one out of 1/4 plate steel  and slightly larger if your doing any serious vertical work.  For a few hundred, its a great saw.Syncrowave 350Coolmate 3Millermatic 251Spoolmatic 30A
Reply:Wish I had a good cold saw, after using  a good one every else sucks.