welding 1" bar

admin

I'm new to welding and have a Millermatic 211. I'm told that for welding heavier metal, one needs to make multiple passes.   Fine, I understand that concept.  But.....   the other night I was welding 1/4" bar to a 1" bar.   No matter how hard I tried, I didn't feel that I got the 1" bar hot enough for a good weld (I was also worried about blowing through the 1/4" bar although I was directing the torch more toward the 1" piece.(I was welding the pieces at at 45 degree angle so bevelling wasn't an issue although I did have more difficulty getting on the inside of the 45.)   I was using .035 wire with the Miller set to max settings.   I realized later I could have done somewhat better if I had used fluxcore wire.   Any other suggestions?  Would a AC buzzbox stick welder like a Lincoln 225AC do better for this type of work?   Some of my main projects are for tractor and skid steer attachments.   Ken
Reply:A stick welder would have done better. Also you can preheat the 1"."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:Picts would help.With mig as opposed to stick, the closer you hold the gun and the less stick out you have, the "hotter" the weld will be. I see a lot of newer mig guys who have a stick out of 5/8" to 3/4" or more and weld "cold". Stick out should be 3/8" to 1/2" roughly for that. That machine is capable of welding 1/4" to 1" with no issues if cranked up near max, if done right. If you need to weld much more than 1/4" or 3/8", then yes a stick machine would probably be advantageous to you. That or a mig with more top end power. That said, I can't really think of a ton of heavy equipment projects I've done over the years where I'd have needed much more power than what you get with that MM211. Duty cycle would be my greatest concern with that little machine, but if you didn't do long welds I can't see too many issues. Most of the projects, with the exception of bucket edges, teeth or forks, were mostly 1/4" to 3/8". Even the sides of the buckets on most of the stuff was that thin except on the bigger equipment. I wouldn't pick the MM211 for full time work on equipment, but running on 230v I can see it getting most of the stuff done we had to do on the  Skidsteer, Kubota tractor and Ford backhoe.Post up some of what you are thinking about working on as well as some picts of your welds..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Okay, here are pictures.   The project was a hitch receiver for the 3pt on the tractor. I debated using 2x2x1/4 angle for the crosspiece but decided to use an old tow bar that I had.  I knew it would be sturdy enough ;-)The toplink bracket wasn't too bad on the outside but I couldn't get the nozzle squeezed in there on the inside.I don't think the outside from the top to the tow bar was too bad, but the inside, again, I had trouble doing anything decent getting the nozzle in close enough and at a good angle.The other side isn't as goodand welding the receiver box on wasn't too goodComments and criticism and suggestions appreciated.   This was my first real project.Ken
Reply:Here is what I want to work on next, a skid steer adapter to use a 3pt scraper blade.I already have a 5/16" quick attach plate for the skid steer.   At first I was thinking of welding a 1"x4" bar across it for a mount (the old seat of the pants engineering that if a 1/4" will work, a half inch will work better so let's go with 1" )    However, the more I look at it, I'm thinking of welding 4x4x1/4" tube across the quick attach plate with some back to back 4x4x1/4" angles to mate up with the scraper blade hitch.That would be easier to weld and I assume would be adequate.   The cross bar on the scraper blade is 4x4 but I don't know how thick it is.Again, suggestions would be appreciated.Thanks,Ken
Reply:Ken,It really looks to me like you need to spend some time welding on scrap, so that you can learn how to produce a satisfactory weld bead.Also take an angle grinder and round off those sharp corner on the top link connecting point.ESAB Migmaster 250 Hobart Ironman 230Multimatic 215TWECO Fabricator 181i & 211iHH125EZ - nice little fluxcore only unitMaxstar 150 STH - very nice
Reply:Originally Posted by k45Comments and criticism and suggestions appreciated.   This was my first real project.  Ken
Reply:I agree with SuperArc. Your issues stem from lack of skill, not lack of power. Get yourself some clean 3"x3" 1/4" thick angle iron 12" long, or some 1/4" or 3/8" flat plate say 4 to 6" wide by 8" to 12" long.and start off learning to run basic beads. This will let you get in plenty of basic practice and not cost you a fortune in material to do it. Run one bead, then run the following beads overlapping the last one by 1/2. Keep stacking the beads on top of each other, cooling the plate every 2-3 beads so the excess heat doesn't change the way it welds. You want to be able to lay down nice smooth consistent beads.The picts will give you an idea what I'm talking about. They were done by a friend who I was trying to help improve his skills with stick off my scrap pile. Attached Images.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:i agree with what others have said. practice a lot and it will come. remember that the top link does not have to be over killed because it contributes little if any to the lifting force. it is there strictly to prevent the implement from pivoting as it is lifted. here is a pic of one like i built for my tractor but i didn't add the rear strap since i just use it for light trailers on the farm. looking at your design i hope you are using it for very light duty use as there is a great chance of twisting in the top links support arms. if you welded an upright from the receiver hitch to the bottom of the top link it would greatly reduce the chance of twisting. just my opinion. keep working at it....jim Attached ImagesLast edited by jbmprods; 04-15-2012 at 11:58 PM.225NT bobcatAEAD200LEScott 125mm175, mm252 w 30A, PT225mm211, TA 181iHyper Therm 380, cut master 529100X & XX, Digital Elite6 Victor setssmith little torch, meco midget kalamazoo band sawsteel max saw evoulution circular saw
Reply:Before you ever pull the trigger, get clean metal, accurate fit-up, pre-heat that heavy steel to 150*F., and practice good technique until you no longer doubt yourself. Find some scrap iron to run practice beads on. These are stick weld depictions, but they give you an idea, plus how to stack beads. Attached ImagesCity of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:As a general rule you should never use solid wire on anything thicker than 1/8". ...............unless you have a bottle of Ar + 15%-20% CO2, and know how to use the high current "spray transfer" mode. Otherwise I strongly advise you to purchase a spool of .035" E71T-1 dual-shield.Without using spray transfer, solid wire produces low heat input and poor "cleaning action."  This means that unless you're welding thin sheet metal, your welds will suffer form serious lack-of-fusion and lack-of-penetration defects. ---->Multiple passes or preheat won't help in this regard because your welds simply aren't coalescing into the base metal. Due to the lack of cleaning action.<----Worse, lack-of fusion is insidious because it's invisible unless you know exactly what clues to look for, not something you can always see just by looking at the weld. But I can already tell there's some major lack of fusion AKA cold laps in some of the picture you've posted. This is really the bane of the MIG process. The ability to make pretty-looking welds, that are rotten underneath the surface. Just like Cinderella's evil stepmother. Dual shield solves these problems because the flux does most of the cleaning, and also it increases the current at any particular weld setting, thus increasing heat input and penetration.Last edited by Joshfromsaltlake; 04-16-2012 at 06:39 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Joshfromsaltlake As a general rule you should never use solid wire on anything thicker than 1/8".
Reply:Crap, all of those 3/8" open root test plates I ran with .035 and 100% CO2 are going to fall apart now, I have exceeded the 1/8" barrierExperience is something you get right after you need it
Reply:Originally Posted by SuperArcKen, don't hate. You want honest opinions, I'll give them. Those welds are not the fault of the MM211. What you depict in those pics, a MM211 could handle without breaking a sweat.  The problem is, "operator error."  aka: the man behind the trigger. You just need more practice, plain and simple. Thinking a stick welder will do any better is a false sense of security, UNLESS.... You're already an experienced stick welder. Judging by your questions in another post, I'll assume that you have virtually no experience with SMAW. Also, seeing the porosity that's heavily evident in your pic, I'll assume you were welding with an outdoor breeze, OR..... Your stick out was like an inch long.  As someone else suggested, keep your stick out no longer than 1/4".You need practice, practice and more practice my friend.  Thinking that a stick welder will do wonders in this particular situation you've presented is not correct.Even if you had a Miller 252 which by the way produces 300 Amps with a 60% duty cycle, your welds would look no different.  You MM211 can easily handle the task your trying to accomplish (based on your submitted photos), but your welding skills are what's needed to improve to make better welds. I'm NOT insulting you.  Every welder has been at the "beginning" at one time or another. We all start out with "baby" steps. Nobody here is instantly a "Picasso" ( except maybe ZTFab or Rick V, but they were "gifted" at birth! Lol).If you want better welds, seek not a "better" machine, search your own abilities and limitations and strive to improve on them.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI agree with SuperArc. Your issues stem from lack of skill, not lack of power. Get yourself some clean 3"x3" 1/4" thick angle iron 12" long, or some 1/4" or 3/8" flat plate say 4 to 6" wide by 8" to 12" long.and start off learning to run basic beads. This will let you get in plenty of basic practice and not cost you a fortune in material to do it. Run one bead, then run the following beads overlapping the last one by 1/2. Keep stacking the beads on top of each other, cooling the plate every 2-3 beads so the excess heat doesn't change the way it welds. You want to be able to lay down nice smooth consistent beads.The picts will give you an idea what I'm talking about. They were done by a friend who I was trying to help improve his skills with stick off my scrap pile.
Reply:Originally Posted by jbmprodsi agree with what others have said. practice a lot and it will come. remember that the top link does not have to be over killed because it contributes little if any to the lifting force. it is there strictly to prevent the implement from pivoting as it is lifted. here is a pic of one like i built for my tractor but i didn't add the rear strap since i just use it for light trailers on the farm. looking at your design i hope you are using it for very light duty use as there is a great chance of twisting in the top links support arms. if you welded an upright from the receiver hitch to the bottom of the top link it would greatly reduce the chance of twisting. just my opinion. keep working at it....jim
Reply:Originally Posted by tanglediverBefore you ever pull the trigger, get clean metal, accurate fit-up, pre-heat that heavy steel to 150*F., and practice good technique until you no longer doubt yourself. Find some scrap iron to run practice beads on. These are stick weld depictions, but they give you an idea, plus how to stack beads.
Reply:Ken,Thanks for posting your project. I too enjoy building farm implements. As others mentioned, your MM211 is plenty capable for what your doing. I think your design made some of it more difficult than need be. Is the flat bar material 3/16" or 1/4"?The top link should have been done with bends rather than welding on stubs. Likewise a couple of short bends at the bottom would have given you more room to weld. A few bends would have saved time and likely yielded a much stronger part. Bending flat bar can be done easily with a vise and a torch.... or even cold with a big hammer.I drew a very quick sketch of the flat bar portion which may help you see what I'm talking about.When I build stuff I try to in-vision how it will be welded together... sometimes I will change the design to use less weld or an easier weld. Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireKen,Thanks for posting your project. I too enjoy building farm implements. As others mentioned, your MM211 is plenty capable for what your doing. I think your design made some of it more difficult than need be. Is the flat bar material 3/16" or 1/4"?The top link should have been done with bends rather than welding on stubs. Likewise a couple of short bends at the bottom would have given you more room to weld. A few bends would have saved time and likely yielded a much stronger part. Bending flat bar can be done easily with a vise and a torch.... or even cold with a big hammer.I drew a very quick sketch of the flat bar portion which may help you see what I'm talking about.When I build stuff I try to in-vision how it will be welded together... sometimes I will change the design to use less weld or an easier weld.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fred sCrap, all of those 3/8" open root test plates I ran with .035 and 100% CO2 are going to fall apart now, I have exceeded the 1/8" barrier
Reply:As mentioned by Tanglediver- prep the steel better- this helps a lot when learning since you at least remove that one possibility of a problem. Once you have more experience you'll figger out just how far/much of the joint are needs to be prepped.I would have flap disced that 1" bar all the way to the end to shiny steel. This will also help in SEEING since you won't be creating more smoke and spatter from burning paint in the vicinity of the joint.Even on the new steel go ahead and knock off the layer of Mill scale where you'll be welding.If you are welding inside- which I assume so since you are using solid wire and gas- put a 500 watt halogen light over the work area.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1As mentioned by Tanglediver- prep the steel better- this helps a lot when learning since you at least remove that one possibility of a problem. Once you have more experience you'll figger out just how far/much of the joint are needs to be prepped.
Reply:Originally Posted by k45Thanks for the comments.  Yes, I realize it would have been easier welding if I had bent the 1/4" flat stock, but I don't have facilities for doing that and getting decent results.   Besides, "doing it the hard way" by welding the angles gave me some experiences and learning  that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise.  At this point, learning is my main goal.
Reply:Originally Posted by k45Also to my untrained eye, I don't see the difference between "normal" and "speed too slow" (or "arc too long").   What am I missing seeing?Thanks,Ken
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWSearch "press brake" here. Lots of guys have built units here. Just the 2 threads I remember.You can build the press and build the brake. All you really need is a bottle jack. A useful project for around the farm.Thanks for the reply DSW. I'll qualify since you ask. I did say a "general rule." You can, of course, make acceptable vertical-up short-circuit welds due to the mechanics of welding uphill, cleaning isn't an issue. This is more difficult and less productive than dual shield. It's also common for short to be used to fill open root gaps, on pipes for example. This works very well. This is all way beyond the skill level of a beginner. Originally Posted by DSWWhat a crock of .... And no he doesn't run spray either since the idea is to keep the heat input as low as possible to avoid issues with the HAZ, especially with high tensile and heat treated steels. He never uses FC or Dual shield in any of his work though he does do some stick work on site if he can't tent and run wire.
Reply:Just an update.  Yesterday I did some practice using short stickout on some 3/16 and 1/4".   Better results, thanks for the suggestions.On a couple of beads, I had some sinking in the bead toward the end so I assume that it was getting too hot, right? And I also got a bit of burnout at the edge a couple of times.  I assume it comes with experience to ease off at the edge?  Speed up or lengthen the stickout?  Or....?However, when I tried a 90 degree corner weld, the nozzle was extremely close and a couple of times got stuck.   There isn't much nozzle clearance on a 90 degree, right?   How do you work with short stickout on the inside of a tight angle (say 45 degrees?)   There isn't room for the nozzle and keeping a short stickout.    Or is that just a limitation of MIG welding?Ken
Reply:Sorry. I don't see any shiny metal as mentioned that is should be sanded. Even the mill scale should be sanded off of new steel.www.tjsperformance.comDynasty 300 DXHTP 240HTP Microcut 380Hyperthem 85JD2 Hyd Bender and HF Hyd Ring Roller all in one =(Frankenbender)Bpt. Mill/DRO4' x 8' CNC Plasma TableInstagram: tjsperformanceYT: TJS Welding and Fabrication
Reply:Couple of suggestions on things others haven't touched on.  Seeing is really important.  Get some light on the weld from an angle that doesn't also flood the inside of your helmet.  Keep your lens clean inside and out.  Get your head in there close - like less than 12" away.  If you have smoke, use a fan to draw the smoke away gently - repeat "draw it" and "gently".  Move the piece, your body and your head around till you are comfortable and can see.On things melting away... yes, that can be caused by building up too much heat especially at the end of a weld.  Stop short of that.  Let things cool a bit.  Then try starting from the END and work back to your weld.The end, is actually the beginning, Grasshopper. For the close corners, it can be like a jigsaw puzzle - you may do things "out of order" or weld things differently if the situation calls for it.  Turn the piece upside down, weld things "out of order" of what you might normally do so you don't have a tight corner, bevel and weld from the outside, use a bender/ brake and don't create a weld you don't have to (aka: get your practice on scrap, not on your project - I am guilty of this to some extent).  Welding is only one way to skin a cat.  It's just a tool.  Okay, it's a very fun and exciting tool, but in the end that's all it is.  There's still bending, bolting, buying.  Think "what's the best, easiest, fastest way to get this done?" not "how can I use my welder today?".Grasshopper, you must release your grip on the torch in order to use the torch.  These are some of the things I have learned in my short career as a certified Bed Frame Welder (TM).  Hopefully there's nothing too terribly incorrect in there.
Reply:Rod, thanks for the suggestions. I'll give them a try.Ken
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPOh I bet you don't loose much sleep over it! .................
Reply:3/16" is a very tight arc. 1/4" to 3/8" is what I use most times, maybe a bit longer on inside corners or bevels. Usually if your nozzle sticks, it's because there's a buildup of crud on the inside that's allowing the tip to make contact thru the crud with the nozzle, thus making the nozzle "hot". In some cases you can literally drag the nozzle along the plate when doing a corner. The nozzle should be insulated from the electrical arc, so it shouldn't stick.But yes in some cases you would have to run a longer stick out than you normally would. You would then turn up the machine slightly to adjust for the slightly colder weld.A good portion of all of this is learning to "see" the puddle. Once you can see and read the puddle, you make adjustments in travel speed, stick out and motion, to get the desired result you are looking for. Learn to watch the molten puddle, not the arc itself. It takes a bit of practice, but once you "see" it, suddenly you'll have an "Ah Ha!" moment and this will all begin to make sense. Most students at the tech school really don't learn this until they hit vertical and the timing patterns that they did before no longer work. There's no one who can "show" you what to "see". It's something you have to learn yourself. It's a bit easier if you have someone who can do it right who can run welds so you can watch what a good weld looks like..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:joshfromsaltlake sure throws out some BS in these forums.Sounds like he knows about as much about welding as he does about the middle east.  To make the comment about "Israel is the biggest threat in the middle east (greater than Iran)" just shows he knows little about what he speaks."As a general rule, you should never use solid wire on anything greater than 1/8" thick" is about as dumb a statement as I've seen on these forums.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:As many of you know very well it can be done. .035 vertical up on 1/2 inch plate. Side bend results. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400