New guy here.....handrail question

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Hello.I run a single man ornamental iron shop. I do gates, handrails, CNC cutting, and all sorts of light duty (non structural) welding.I recently was contact by a general contractor who has asked me to bid on a job for about 250 ft of exterior handrail, 3 large gates, and a ton of interior handrail and grab rail.It would be a very good job for me.The thing I am struggling with is that the exterior handrail will span between stone columns that are already built. The stone surface that the handrail would attach to is nowhere near flat. It is sandstone that is over concrete block. The surface of the stone varies at least 1-2 inches above flat.The general told me to come up with a way to attach the handrail to that surface, but I really have no idea how to do that and make it look nice and clean. I told him, that I need a  solid flat surface to attach the handrail to.Do any of you guys know of a good way to achieve this, or should I stick to my guns that he needs to supply me with a solid flat surface?I've contact king and they told me that they did not really have any brackets to attach handrail to this sort of varied height stone surface.Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'll add a picture of the stone columns this afternoon.Thanks for the helpMiller TrailBlazer 301Miller 12rc feederMiller ShopmasterMiller 22a feederPlasmaCam CNC TableHypertherm 45 cutterDrills, saws, blast cabinets etc.
Reply:Is there any way of making the bracket 'float'? I don't like drilling into masonary that is a thin layer, I find it usually crumbles.Brian
Reply:When you say "sandstone", do you mean real sandstone?  Or lightweight concrete "tiles"?  I'm certainly no expert, but I wouldn't want to trust a handrail screwed into something attached to the main structure with thinset.  Either way, I'd look to either do as BrianC suggested, or get down to the main structure.
Reply:I have done similar jobs, and what I do is terminate all the pipe into a piece of pretty hefty flat bar- something 3" x 3/8", that is the full height of the rail- 32" or whatever- and then bolt that flat bar to the columns.If the columns are really irregular, I go in afterwards and use a caulking gun to fill in between the column and the flat bar. The bigger problem is making a rail that EXACTLY fits between two columns, because they are seldom plumb, flat, or parallel, so you need to leave a bit of space, and wiggle room, otherwise it will never fit.For solid stone, I would drill after the rail is wedged in place, and use an epoxy/ threaded rod system- I use Hilti. For hollow columns, I have used these gigantic toggle bolts- I once hung a bunch of 400lb railing panels, on columns that were just chicken wire and stucco- I used something like six 1/2" diameter toggles per end, and they are solid today, 8 years later.http://www.toggler.com/products/snaptoggle/overview.php
Reply:A 1-2" dimension variation is not really caulkable, IMNSHO.And watch out that that 1-2" dimension variation doesn't cause you to fail any sort of spacing codes (baluster spacing).I'd say to make your 'structural' attachments to the columns as desired (epoxy some threaded rods/bolts/studs into the columns and leave them 'long').  Then attach your actual 'mounting plates' to those pieces.  If desired/needed, scribe and 'backfill' pieces around the rods/bolts/studs to box them out and then caulk the edges against the columns.  Attach the handrail to your mounting plates.Or if you will have (or 'can' have) any supports posts for the handrail (railing?), then just anchor your vertical posts and have the last bit of rail between the end post and the columns 'floating'.  Scribe the end of the rail to the column and then caulk the (small) gap.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:I've fab'd a lot of railings over the years, and very much dislike installing them. Now when we make them, I let the contractor install them. I don't envy you installing these ones!'Brian
Reply:Picts would help. A good mason can cut the stone to give you a level area and do so in a way the blends well with the rest of the block. There are any number of ways to do this, usually either with chisels if the guy is old school or with a diamond wheel in a grinder. Real stone is usually easier to work with, especially sandstone that cuts easy."Lick 'em, and Stick 'em" stone ( ie manufactured concrete stone products) are a bit harder. as soon as you get past the surface, you expose the concrete aggregate and it looks like cr@p. The mason may be able to grind down a circular area for you to mount the rails to. It's a real PITA to do so however. Usually it involves coring a hole and removing the interior material to do the job easy and neatly. In some cases he can come back and grout around your rails and hide things.As far as varying sizes, the rail design will change some of this. I've seen units where they build a slide over sleeve with round rail. They mount the rail end to the column, then slip the rail in place and trim for a snug fit, then slip the sleeve over the rail, instal it and slide the sleeve over both and weld it in place and finish, or set it up so there is a  cap that covers the joint. With  the more traditional rail caps, I've seen them have the bracket inset under the rail and then weld in place.In the future, I've also seen guy's who mount the hand rail brackets 1st to the block work. Then the mason comes in and cuts the stone to fit around the brackets. Then the rail guy comes back out and just has to clean up and trim the bracket to  fit the rails he built. A friend of mine who does stone and block does it this way when his brother is doing the rails. His brother fabs up the rail brackets and they set them when they lay up the block to the right height. Then they lay the stone and grout and his brother just comes out to instal the rails later. It takes a bit of cooperation between the mason and rail guy to make this work, but it's not impossible.Good luck..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Step one.  Join NOMMA Step two    praystep three   add another 25% to whatever figure you come up with for your bid (you will burn most of this up if this is your first time dealing with this type of thing)step four    pray more    Seriously I would say that if you can incorporate vertical post to carry your panels that is your best bet.  Can you use verticals and core drill into some concrete below the panels or something?  odds are for your panels to be dead nuts perfect you are going to have to take perfect measurements and make a perfect panel.  This gets hard any of use that do lots of nice railings know how hard it is to accomplish.  I think if it was me and I could weld on the install and touch up paint i would go through and anchor up my rail end mounting plates to the column first.  Get them nice and plum so you can build square panels.  Once you have all that done go through and take your measurements.  build your panels so you will have about a 3 inch gap from the end picket to the stone face.  leave your top rail and bottom rail a little long on each end then trim and weld onsite.  Good luck if you get it that sort of install can be a terrible terrible pain in the *** and should be avoided at if at all possible.  Odds are it wont look as nice as they hope.  The masons really should have been instructed to put mounting structure of some kind into the pillars as they built them.  But most builders dont have a clue about how to think ahead like thatwww.burdettenetworks.com
Reply:What matters is what your top and bottom rail are made of. If it is square tube then you have no problem. Commercial railing is installed with a smaller size tube with a tab on it that slides inside the top and bottom rail. It can be slid out up ro about 3/8" and still look good. You will need to make your railing a little small to fit inside the columns any way.Now to make your measurements and me to explain good enough so you can understand what I'm trying to say. Stand a level up touching the column and it being plumb. It doesn't matter what part of the level is touching the column. My level is marked 3 1/2" up from the bottom as well as the height I want the top rail. Make a mark on the floor on the side of the level away from the column. Do the other column. Between these marks are your plumb measurements. Now put your level back up and have it plumb. Measure from the inside of the level to the stone at the marks on your level and record all this on paper.  Now you have your measurements exactly to fit the stone columns, even if all are different.I would make the railing about 1/4" smaller on both ends and adjust the slip in pieces out to make up the difference. This is all easier then I made it seem. I think I did a thread about this subject, with pictures, about a year or two ago. You might want to check. Good luck, Bob
Reply:Thanks for all the replies.Based on replies from you guys, here is what I decided to do and got approved by the general contractor.I'll make up custom brackets that will be a flat piece of plate with two bits of all thread sticking out the back of it. the general contractor will have his masons grind a flat surface into the stone columns, then drill two holes and epoxy these brackets into place. At this point, they will not yet grout around the brackets.I'll measure off of these and then build my railing. I'll build it a small amount oversized and then will cut it to fit when I go to do the install. They will be welded into place, and the powder coat will be touched up.Once this is completed, the masons will come back and grout around the bracket. This will cover any potential over spray from the touch up paint.What do you think?Thanks again for the input. It made a big difference.Miller TrailBlazer 301Miller 12rc feederMiller ShopmasterMiller 22a feederPlasmaCam CNC TableHypertherm 45 cutterDrills, saws, blast cabinets etc.
Reply:Sounds like a great approach.  A very professional solution and by getting the gc on your page and organized with the masons from the get go you will no doubt trim the budget and have a cleaner smoother install.  Will definatley get you remembered by the gc.  Also should save you a ton of headaches and make your work easier and hopefully more profitable!www.burdettenetworks.com