Union ironworkers, or others trades for that matter

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We just finished a structural steel retrofit in the chicago area.  My business is non union and out of area.  A GC for which we handle all of their metal related business asked me to bid the job, and I said sure, but didnt see how it could be viable to bid a job 800+ miles away.   After the bidding process was done we were awarded the job.  All our competitors were local to chicago, being either union or non-union.  The lowest non-union fabricator was around 30% higher, the lowest union outfit was 50%+ higher.  With several at 100% higher.  The same went went for basically all trades.  If this project was a full local union job, it would have gone from around $3M to $6M+.  At that price point, the entire project is dead.  The overhead vs. profit does not work.  The first month or so of the job went ok for the GC.  Demo, basic wall framing, some concrete demo, and pour back was done.  As soon as the job was nearing high gear, here comes the union picketing.   There was a month or so they could not get any union exclusive services onsite.  My company had to contract modular bracing, dont care to say the company name, to do roof bracing.  They were whiney, slow, and very expensive.  When we got the crane company onsite the operator was rude, slow, and constantly bitching about anything possible.  I dont understand the philosophy behind it all.  You can either have a project that employs some union trades by necessity.  Or you can have a job that has no choice but to use all union trades and will never leave a set of blue prints.   I am glad for all you guys that make the wages you do from the union.  From our part of the world, we do not get paid enough to pay out in that manor.   American airlines has seen firsthand that you cant pay someone $28 per hour to load bags.  Where is the rational line drawn?  In the DFW area, our common bill rate for an ironworker is $65 per hour.  Not the wage, but what we charge.  For speciality onsite alloy work we get to $100+ per hour, but thats fairly rare.  I am still a bit thrown off by the whole experience, it doesnt make sense.  We met all the deadlines and had 100% sign off by a local steel inspector.    Again, I am not looking to start some childish internet argument, I would like to know what the other side of the coin is.Lots of toys.
Reply:I believe if you have employed skilled trademan, completed the job in a quality and timely manner, and did so at a price point the benefited the end user, and made you a small profit for the headaches you endured, then good for you.Union or Non Union, America is falling apart. I hate to see the work going to the Commies.Thankyou for putting Americans to work.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Screw the unions. They had their place years ago. Now they just drive up prices.
Reply:I think the fundamental reason for having a construction union is that work done in your area is done by local tradesmen so that they can go home at night and have a family life like anyone else.  Despite that, union workers also travel hundreds or thousands of miles to work when there is no work in their home area.  In Chicago the cost of living is much higher than in much of the southern states, which is why they expect higher wages so they can afford to live a similar lifestyle.  I don't think anyone who carries a lunchbucket to work on construction is getting rich, they are just trying to get by like other folks, union or non union..When non union contractors come in from outside the area and bid jobs below the union rate it is understandable why local men and contractors get upset.  Also the only reason the non union contractors get the rates they do is because of unions, they often charge very close to the union rate but do not pay their men nearly what they are getting and pocket the differenceI don't think that unions are perfect but I wouldn't want to see them go.  Think of what it was like before unions got health and safety reforms, benefits etc for their workers.  I don't remember too many employers who gave these to their workers willingly on their own."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:Profit isn't a dirty word.   If you made some then be happy.     The union tried to step on me here and i let them know quick and fast that i was having none of that.    They also figured out very quick that i was friendly with connected people.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:I have to ask, " connected in what sort of way? " I hardly think you got them shaking in their boots. Whoever them might be Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2
Reply:Originally Posted by glock36I have to ask, " connected in what sort of way? " I hardly think you got them shaking in their boots. Whoever them might be Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2
Reply:Brandon i can see your frustration , i am a union guy in a shop union not a construction union so i really don't understand your work culture . one thing i can definitely say is if there were no unions in this country i could only imagine what a blue collar working man like you and me would  have to deal with . look at what Washington is doing to the postal service that used to be one of the best jobs you could have and  it's days are numbered . look at what happened in Wisconsin with the city workers . i am not trying to start a political argument what i am trying to say is the people at the top  just keep taking and taking from the working man and keep giving to themselves and unions try to keep that from happening to guys like me and you . i will be the first to admit unions  have they're pluses and minuses but we as working men are better off with em . i have seen first hand what the company i work for does to our non union salaried work force for example  age discrimination and i had a 23 yr old kid fresh out of college tell me Saturday he works 70to 75 hrs. a week and he doesn't get compensated over 40hrs. just to name a few . this is just my view of things  i hope i didn't piss anybody off  just talking . thank you for providing American jobs to American workers we need more people like you . Chris
Reply:Curious, where were you working specifically? Chicago(land) is a large area, I'm about 30 miles away in NW Indiana and like Chicago, the commercial side is largely union especially with mills and BP.I'm supposing this was a private job so it's up to the owner. Your ready mix drivers(teamster) and crane operators(operating engineers) are largely union. Some areas south/southwest of the city are really pro union, as you get into the old mining areas. Word gets round, you know.If it's a private job, unless the owner is signatory to some agreement, it's up to them.My company is all union, we do 95% public work. As such, our competition is all union too.
Reply:Originally Posted by ct from shawneeBrandon i can see your frustration , i am a union guy in a shop union not a construction union so i really don't understand your work culture . one thing i can definitely say is if there were no unions in this country i could only imagine what a blue collar working man like you and me would  have to deal with . look at what Washington is doing to the postal service that used to be one of the best jobs you could have and  it's days are numbered . look at what happened in Wisconsin with the city workers . i am not trying to start a political argument what i am trying to say is the people at the top  just keep taking and taking from the working man and keep giving to themselves and unions try to keep that from happening to guys like me and you . i will be the first to admit unions  have they're pluses and minuses but we as working men are better off with em . i have seen first hand what the company i work for does to our non union salaried work force for example  age discrimination and i had a 23 yr old kid fresh out of college tell me Saturday he works 70to 75 hrs. a week and he doesn't get compensated over 40hrs. just to name a few . this is just my view of things  i hope i didn't piss anybody off  just talking . thank you for providing American jobs to American workers we need more people like you . Chris
Reply:Originally Posted by Steelin' DucksScrew the unions. They had their place years ago. Now they just drive up prices.
Reply:Originally Posted by claymans13Good pov coming from someone who has likely never been in a union or will be in one, and i'm sure you're excuse for never being in one is the same as everyone else because you've 'HEARD' how bad they are.I'll end my union debate right there since everyone with your views has nothing creditable to say since you've only lived on one side of the fence.
Reply:I work in a unionized production plant.Because we are a union plant, all contractors that come in to work are union as well.I couldnt imagine working for the company I work for without being union. We'd be working for nothing in short order.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Are there that many un/underemployed people with the skills to do your job that they could hire them for so much less?I doubt it, but if they can why shouldn't they have that option open to them to consider, when the current contract expires?Remember it is not your job, you are just the one selected to do it.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardYou are jumping to conclusions and making accusations.
Reply:Originally Posted by claymans13and your point? I believe he did the same with his uneducated post on unions driving up prices. If he has never been a part of one, he really has no business saying they had their place, or they drive up prices because he isn't a member of one to see how and why they operate the way they do.So often people bash unions, and more often than not the people bashing have NO idea or clue about the union craft their bashing, nor have they ever been a member of one. The most frustrating part of being in a union is people saying all union workers are lazy and over paid, because someone "told" them that. Until YOU do the job, don't say i'm over paid to do it.
Reply:Ive been in Union shops and non-union shops...Union shops, that I have worked for ( cant speak for all ) have ZERO overhead. Educated workers, a few truck drivers and a Project Manager... The Non-Union shop I currently work for has a Container Ship of Overhead... Were talking miles of pipe, 1000s of lbs of refrigerant, in house Accountants, 4 dispatchers 2 warehouse guys and a F-ing IT Guy... Take a wild guess why we get out-bid by Union shops time and time again.Chigaco's a tough city. A good friend of mine has also been on both sides of the fence, lives in Joliett, and prefers Non-Union shops. The "Bad" that people hear of with Unions are the minority. The useless Lobs that occupy the bench, and bitch about the contract, how they cant feed their family-blah blah. 90% of Union fitters, welders and the like are damn good, hard working guys.Lincoln Power MIG 210 MP ( boat anchor )Lincoln Weld-Pac 100 HDHobart IronMan 230Cutmaster 42Jackson NexGenSumner Ultra ClampsDWM120
Reply:Dollar for dollar. I still think living in Chicago being a Union Plumber ( Local 130 U.A.) is the best bang for the buck. I'm sorry if you didn't like your experience in Chicago, Brandon. I can't imagine  any skilled trade here not being union. I do understand some of your points. Didn't you know what you might run into by bidding a job in a major city?  We stick together. That's all I have to say.
Reply:Cost of local livingcost of dyingcost of running a company in chicagothese three things dictate the higher bid rates you saw.Last edited by citizen smith; 05-21-2012 at 09:24 PM.Local 597
Reply:I know in NW indiana, where i am a member of smwia20...our rates are 100% matching to the non union rates....I know this cause we make "false" calls to get service rates. I am sure there are some companys that charge more but look at what your getting as a whole..the workers have a minimum of 3- 5 years trade school, osha 30, regular drug testing..license, bonded, insured.... I know there are great non union craftsmen but for the most part you get what you pay for, kind of  like buying an everlast machine over a miller...lol....
Reply:also, how is this a welding thread?Local 597
Reply:Originally Posted by MadMax31Ive been in Union shops and non-union shops...Union shops, that I have worked for ( cant speak for all ) have ZERO overhead. Educated workers, a few truck drivers and a Project Manager... The Non-Union shop I currently work for has a Container Ship of Overhead... Were talking miles of pipe, 1000s of lbs of refrigerant, in house Accountants, 4 dispatchers 2 warehouse guys and a F-ing IT Guy... Take a wild guess why we get out-bid by Union shops time and time again.Chigaco's a tough city. A good friend of mine has also been on both sides of the fence, lives in Joliett, and prefers Non-Union shops. The "Bad" that people hear of with Unions are the minority. The useless Lobs that occupy the bench, and bitch about the contract, how they cant feed their family-blah blah. 90% of Union fitters, welders and the like are damn good, hard working guys.
Reply:Originally Posted by pipehackDollar for dollar. I still think living in Chicago being a Union Plumber ( Local 130 U.A.) is the best bang for the buck. I'm sorry if you didn't like your experience in Chicago, Brandon. I can't imagine  any skilled trade here not being union. I do understand some of your points. Didn't you know what you might run into by bidding a job in a major city?  We stick together. That's all I have to say.
Reply:Originally Posted by citizen smithalso, how is this a welding thread?
Reply:I see it from both sides. I've lived out of a suitcase eating ramen noodles trying to make payroll and I have been unionized getting a guaranteed salary and benefits. Also we have overpaid union office personnel that are uneducated and you can't just replace them. I think the unions are good in some cases and bad in others. Another example, we have a fully trained hand that I'd like to get rid of because of attitude, intelligence, and work ethic. Makes the same wage/ package as me but I wouldn't trust him to wipe his own *** without screwing something up. Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you overpay for stupid. And the stupid are protected. I've been working under a union contract for many years and have yet to "swear in"HammerFile Big Hammer------------------------------Here, let me Google that for you...Originally Posted by lamenameI see it from both sides. I've lived out of a suitcase eating ramen noodles trying to make payroll and I have been unionized getting a guaranteed salary and benefits. Also we have overpaid union office personnel that are uneducated and you can't just replace them. I think the unions are good in some cases and bad in others. Another example, we have a fully trained hand that I'd like to get rid of because of attitude, intelligence, and work ethic. Makes the same wage/ package as me but I wouldn't trust him to wipe his own *** without screwing something up. Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you overpay for stupid. And the stupid are protected. I've been working under a union contract for many years and have yet to "swear in"
Reply:Originally Posted by glock36I have to ask, " connected in what sort of way? " I hardly think you got them shaking in their boots. Whoever them might be Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2