Transformer vs Inverter

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So I have my Miller Diversion 180 (inverter) and I LOVE it. However this weekend I got to try out a Miller Syncrowave 180. I have never used a transformer machine before. Only used 1/16th red tungsten for some mild steel, SS, aluminum. However I must say that I LOVED the transformer machine. The initial arc on the aluminum wasn't what I expected but after a few attempts I got used to it.I'm not honestly sure what is all different but I really liked the feel and everything was smooth. I did feel that with the transformer machine you did have to weld a lot slower, even on aluminum. Is this true?What does a transformer do better than a inverter machine and what does an inverter machine do better than a transformer?Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:The big advantage of transformer machines is their lower cost usually 1/2 what a similar inverter will run new. Inverters have many advantages, however your Diversion is a "dumbed" down version and you don't have most of these options. Inverters use less power, a big advantage when running a machine all day long in a production environment. They are also smaller, lighter and more compact than a similar output transformer would be. Many inverters allow you to tailor the arc to your needs. You can control the wave form, as well as the frequency on AC, as well as having greater control over AC balance, something you can't do on transformers. This will allow you to more focus the arc in AC allowing you to maximize the weld parameters, decreasing the HAZ, increasing penetration etc. For the basic hobby welder, very little of this will really matter though, except possible the lower power requirements and light weight compact size. Most hobbyists will never use enough power to realize the savings at the meter vs the extra expense up front ( it takes a lot of welding to make up the almost $2K difference between a Syncrowave 200 and a Dynasty 200) , and all the extra "bells and whistles" really only help if you have the advanced skills to take advantage of them. They won't turn a so so welder into an expert.In your example the Syncrowave 180 has more options than your Diversion has. You can adjust your AC balance on the Syncrowave and you can't on the Diversion. If the balance is turned down on the Syncro 180, that might explain the "slower" weld you experienced as more of the arc is on the cleaning side vs the preset balance setting on your Diversion. Also the Syncro may or may not have had the pulse option available, something that isn't available with the Diversion. It's also easier to add a water cooled torch to the Syncrowave if you need to run at the upper end output scale. You'll also find the duty cycle on the Syncrowave is higher than that of your Diversion as well. All of these are the "advantages" you gave up to have a "low cost" inverter.Last edited by DSW; 06-25-2012 at 09:50 AM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I don't think it had pulse, but I'm not sure where the balance was set, That is possible. Didn't even think about it.I like the fact that the fan wasn't on all the time on the syncrowave. It didn't go on at all. Unlike mine where it's on blast full time, it does get annoying. If I had a 220v I would of probably searched around for a used tig or gotten something different but the fact that the 180 works on 110v/220v was the reason I got it. Also the other thing I like a lot was the hose that feeds the torch. It was super flexible so it made it easier to toss around and get comfortable. Other things I noticed is the syncrowave foot pedal is HUGE. That is something that would take some getting used to for sure.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Not all the 180's had pulse, though it's standard on the Syncro 200's. My guess is that if you are welding alum on 110v power with your Diversion, your fan runs nonstop because you are pushing that machine to it's limits. It should have fan on demand just like the Syncrowaves do. The fact the Syncrowave is running on 230v as well as the fact that it has heavier components and a higher duty cycle is why the fan isn't running on the Syncro 180.The softer line is one of the advantages of a machine that can use standardized components. I can't understand why Miller chose to go with a semi custom torch/hose rig for the Diversions vs just sticking to "normal" stuff.  It's been a while since I demo'd one of the Diversions, so I can't remember the pedal that well. The pedal on my Sync 200 is the same ones used on the Syncro 250's at the tech school and the Dynasty 350's I've run.I can understand the need for a machine to run on 110v power for some. If you are trying to weld alum on 110v power however, that might very well explain some of the overheating issues I've seen on your alum beads. Top end on 110v on the Diversion is 125 amps, so you'd be good for maybe 14 ga alum. To get that it will want 26.5 amps, so on a 15 amp breaker top end is probably closer to 100 amps. You really won't get enough output with that machine on 110v to do anything other than thin alum. It simply takes too long to get the puddle going..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I do 1/8" to .100 aluminum and have it around 104amps and just floor it. One thing I did notice a lot is that the 'buzzing' from doing AC welding on the syncrowave was a lot quieter than compared to the miller. I know mine is 50/60hz, not sure what the syncrowave is, but does the frequency have an affect on how loud the buzzing is?Also as odd as it is, I did like the ball on the end of the tungsten. I watched my friends cousin weld and he dipped the rod to the tungsten and it didn't even change the ball or tungsten. Seems that it handled a dip a little better. We still cleaned it off but this is just some of the minor things I did notice.Did any of those old syncrowaves come in dual voltage? It might be worth to upgrade to something like that a few years down the road. I really like the balance adjustment. I didn't play with it, but I know a few times it would of came in handy on mine.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Too low on the amps with that thickness range on alum. You want at least 25 amps above the 1 amp per thousandth "rule" to get the bead going fast. Explains many of your alum issues right there.All transformer machines are fixed at 60 hertz to my knowledge. Note this is welding hertz, not line hertz. I looked to see what the welding hertz was on the Diversions but couldn't find it quickly. Miller has a good explanation on how higher welding hertz affects weld beads on their site.As far as the ball on the tungsten and dipping, I've seen similar occurrences at the tech school with students. When you slightly foul the tungsten it will often spread and "soften" the arc. This has a tendency to make the edges of the bead wet out a bit better because the arc is spread out a bit more. The same thing happens however if you back the tungsten away from the material a bit farther or if you ball the tungsten larger. ( in reality that's all you did, ball the tungsten bigger, except it's contaminating your bead due to the alum on the tungsten). If you need a bigger ball, just use a larger tungsten, or ball the existing tungsten bigger. Personally I prefer a smaller ball to keep the arc small and adjust my height accordingly if I need a bigger arc. It helps with control.As far as I know the Syncrowaves are all 208-230v minimum. I believe they can be run on higher voltage if set right, at least the Syncro 250s at the tech school are run on 408v IIRC. I know I had to reset the jumpers on one machine we had to move because of work being done in the lab.Balance adjustment on the Syncrowaves can be quite useful, especially with dirty material or new material. It's even better with machines like the Dynasty where you have full control over balance, rather than the narrow +/- 10% or so on the Syncrowaves. ( IIRC you get a bit more range on the + side vs the - side in the balance on the Syncrowaves. I'd have to dredge up the manual for the exact specs.) On the Dynasty you can go as high as 99% IIRC so you are almost welding in DC rather than AC if needed. That's one of the things I'd like to get a chance to "play with" on a Dynasty with someone who really knows and understands what the advanced functions can do.Last edited by DSW; 06-25-2012 at 11:21 AM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Not sure about your diversion. But my invertec can mimic a transformer setting hertz to 60 and balance to 50 and sinodial waveform.  I am not good enough yet to mess with the waveforms but did find changing the other settings a bit. Helped me progress a bit on my tig practice and slolwly moved them back to more common inverter settings of 100 htz and 60 to 70 balance.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:What machine do you have?Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Now you're beginning to see why some of the oldtimers still have their Syncrowaves.Heck, go back one step further and remember that Zap is using a Sine Wave (pre squarewave) machine (330 A B/P if I remember correctly).On DC the transformers and inverters perform nearly the same.  Biggest difference is the increased pulsing frequency available on the inverters.All the Syncrowaves operate at 60Hz, the same as the input Hz.The Diversion, if I remember correctly, operates at 100 Hz and 70% balance.  No provision for change or pulse capability.I've tried setting my Dynasty 200 DX up to mimic the Syncrowave (60Hz, soft squarewave, same balance) and the arc is not quite as smooth as on the Sync.  Plus the Sync doesn't "talk to me" quite like the inverters do.For a small shop or hobbiest, you will never notice the difference in power consumption.For most hobbiests, they'll never fully utilize the "advanced features" of the Dynasty's.  In fact, I'm not sure that they don't detract from the learning experience.  Too many people are turning knobs/pushing buttons (frequency, balance, pulsing, waveforms, etc) trying to get the machine to "make up for" a lack of basic proficiency.My next statement may offend some, but I've never been known for being "politically correct".  If you're trying to do serious aluminum tig welding on a 120v circuit, you're pi$$ing in the wind.  Basically a 120v circuit is NOT satisfactory for serious welding.  Makes no sense to me to spend $1,800 for a machine and not spend a few hundred to get a proper circuit installed to feed it.  Unless you're living in a cave, there's 240v available at the electrical panel.Just my .02 (And since it didn't cost anything, you can take it for what it's worth)PS.  The weldor not the welder produces the bead.  Always has been and always will be.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Your INPUT frequency for your Diversion is 50/60 Hz but the OUTPUT is 120 Hz- and why there is more 'buzz'. The Diversions from the factory run at 120 Hz and 70% on the balance-both the 165 (Which I have) and your newer 180. These are the Dynasty defaults btw Miller tells me and were selected as a good 'all around' compromise.
Reply:131,You're exactly correct on the 120 Hz vs the 100 Hz I mentioned.The preset balance (on the 180) is (according to Miller) 72%.Should mention that this balance setting of 72% yields a higher percentage of DC- (heating effect) than a similar setting of 72% does on a Sync.  This is due to the fact that the inverters have a greater range of balance settings than the transformers do.  Off the top of my head, a setting of 72% balance on a Diversion would equate to about an 80% balance setting on a Syncrowave.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:I think the newer dynasty's 200's have a soft wave settings that mimics the Syncro 200 in some respects. The 200 Syncro is one of those tig machines that have a very soft AC arc. I now the Dynasty 350 has a Thermal-arc 300 setting.Last edited by Brand X; 06-25-2012 at 01:42 PM.Esab/Lorch ET-220iEsab 160i caddyThermal LM-200 Lincoln feedersThermal Pee-Wee 85sThermal 60i- 3phase /RPC powered (Beast)Thermal Drag-gun 35CINE 1500 Klutch 140i
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIFor most hobbiests, they'll never fully utilize the "advanced features" of the Dynasty's.  In fact, I'm not sure that they don't detract from the learning experience.  Too many people are turning knobs/pushing buttons (frequency, balance, pulsing, waveforms, etc) trying to get the machine to "make up for" a lack of basic proficiency.
Reply:Originally Posted by RodJThis is why I like my tombstone.  Three adjustments:  amperage, polarity, and the on/off switch.The other two reasons:  $/cajones.And it's reliable.  No computers or whathaveyou.  And that's the biggest thing holding me back on getting an inverter.I think I should just get a air cooled tig torch and call it a day.
Reply:Each welding machine has a specific purpose, like a wrench. Home buzzboxes aren't small inverters aren't commercial transformer machines aren't commercial inverters. The idea of sticking with one welder is as silly as using only one wrench. Determine if what you have will suit your needs. If not, add another machine.
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleWhat machine do you have?
Reply:Sundown         Appreciate the correction on the balance, no doubt the Miller tech rounded it down to 70 the day I called. I would imagine the faster and more vertical rise and fall slope of an inverter is a factor in 70 on an inverter being analogous to 80 on a transformer machine that can't rise and fall as sharply. Shame they elected to remove any adjustment on the Diversions.   Incidentally my post wasn't to correct your 100hz, I was typing my comment to inform Gamble and never saw your post until I hit enter. I believe the TA 185 uses 100hz as their default and could be what you were thinking of?
Reply:Originally Posted by Brand XThat nice but..... a quote from a guy I sold my Esab inverter to.  I believe just about every process it is true. I finally got the dinse connector and 15 feet of 1 gauge cable and did sometest welds.  I started with my trusty 7018.  It did beautifuly.  Way betterthan my tombstone lincoln AC/DC.  The whole time I welded with the Lincolnthought it was me.
Reply:I have a old Miller 180 SD. Turn on machine and gas, push pedal, weld. No fancy stuff.Works for me.
Reply:Originally Posted by RodJWasn't trying to criticize inverters... hell, I WANT ONE (bad)  I was just commenting on the joys of simplicity, not to mention cost, and fewer parts to go bad, of transformers.  Plus you pay a lot of pesos to get AC on an inverter.I wonder what problems the guy with the ESAB was having with his tombstone that were so terrible he thought he was the problem?
Reply:Originally Posted by Brand XI have no idea what his issue was,, but the inverter Esab fixed it?I could care less, but will say that inverters allow way more adjustment to the arc. I have all inverters except for my AC/DC Esab 252. I don't weld with it a whole lot right now,Had Inverters, but for me the Esab works well enough. Syncro 250 boards can be over a grand, so they got high dollar stuff to go wrong too.Lincolns also. Could cost some people a fortune to upgrade their electrical service for a 300 + amp old school tig, when a inverter probably could get by with a 60 amp. 30 amps 200 amps output is the norm for the little inverters. There is no right machine for everyone, but amp for amp on AC, a inverter goes way farther. Syncro 200 can get to a wave balance of about 60 and not much more, a good inverter can get to 90, and above. (10 if you use a Thermal). Time is heat, and you can stay on that side longer,and cleaner with a inverter.That's just one parameter too.
Reply:: Originally Posted by shovelonHow dare you sing the praises of inverter tigs.And inverter tigs can never match the smoothness of classic sinewave tigs. Because no inverter tig has the sinewave option.#$%&%&?"?---My Dynastys all have the sinewave waveform. Guess I will just have to outperform a TRANNY tig in every way.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmallThe idea of sticking with one welder is as silly as using only one wrench.