Aluminum jon boat

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My buddy picked up four alum boats cheap. Three of them have "issues". We want to fix them, and I get to keep one. After looking on the Lowe website, I believe they are made out of .050 5052-H34. I know nothing about welding alum. I was figuring on renting a Miller Spoolmatic from Red-D-Arc. Obviously I will test on some scrap.1. Is a spool gun the way to go?2. Are the spool guns difficult to use welding alum?3. We were going to buy a sheet of .060 alum to cut for patches. 4. What is the best way to cut patches? I have plasma and will use unless smaller cuts can be made easier using another method.5. I believe 100% Ar???6. What filler metal? Brand, model, dia., ect.?Any other info you can think of will be appreciated.This is the one I get to keep. The others are probably going to be the same."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:This is the last one of mine.This is a different boat. Pretty much the same situation.Last edited by Stick-man; 11-15-2010 at 03:16 PM."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:Stick man! You got your work cut out. I am no "expert" But 5052 is one of the higher strength non-heat-treatable alloys. Most marine stuff is 5052.For 5052 aluminum:Max strength: ER 5556Max ductility: ER 5654For best color match after anodizing ER 5356Max salt water corosion resistance: ER 5554Least cracking tendancy ER 5356I use 5356 for most 5052 work, I'd give 5356 a shot. Maybe someone with more marine aluminum experience will show up. Good luck buddy.
Reply:Also, I would use the spool gun for all that work. It will take awhile. Have you welded aluminum with a spoolgun before? If not your in for a treat. I would use lincoln 5356 wire. Keep us posted.
Reply:Thanks man. Wow, I didn't know it would be all that difficult! As far as color matching, I don't care what it looks like after the fix, as long as it holds water. I doubt it will ever see saltwater. Ok, Lincoln 5356 wire. What dia do you recommend? Gas? Parameters? Is it really difficult to use or is it kinda like mig on steel but you cant see the red puddle?"Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:maybe a use a copper backer alsoi weld boats like that all the time but use Tigclean,clean,clean, ss brush, acetonepractice on scrapidealarc 250/250 ac-dc tigidealarc 250/250 ac-dc tig #2 used for sticklincoln sp100hh125dual arbor grinder polisher30 yrs of hand tools52 pitch blocks 6p-26prake gauge -pitch gaugeG&D prop repair 918-207-6938Hulbert,okla 74441
Reply:no red puddle ....will be silver and fluid mig will be fastidealarc 250/250 ac-dc tigidealarc 250/250 ac-dc tig #2 used for sticklincoln sp100hh125dual arbor grinder polisher30 yrs of hand tools52 pitch blocks 6p-26prake gauge -pitch gaugeG&D prop repair 918-207-6938Hulbert,okla 74441
Reply:MIG welding aluminum is different than welding steel when it comes to shielding gas requirements. For aluminum, 100 percent argon is the gas of choice and move quick! (kinda whip like)
Reply:One other option might be alum brazing rod and an O/A torch to attach the patches. Mig and thin alum is a PITA. Thin oxidized alum is a real PITA. Doable? Yes but expect to blow a few holes thru. The copper backing will help..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I do a "fair amount" of marine repair.Based on the questions asked and the comments, you're nowhere near ready to try that project with mig (even with a spoolgun).Welding thin aluminum with a spool gun is a challenge in itself.  Oxidized and fatigued, thin aluminum is even worse.  In the case of THAT boat, there's really very little left to "weld to".You'd be better off using aluminum sheet for patches, rivets, and 5200 sealant.  After all, that was riveted construction, not welded, in the first place.If your time is worth nothing to you, give it a whirl.If you were paying me (or anyone qualified to do the job), it would be "non-economically repairable".Please do keep us posted on your progress.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:1. Is a spool gun the way to go?I suspect tig would be my first choice, pulse mig second, without pulse as a last resort.2. Are the spool guns difficult to use welding alum?absolutely3. We were going to buy a sheet of .060 alum to cut for patches.try to match alloy, as suggested previously4. What is the best way to cut patches? I have plasma and will use unless smaller cuts can be made easier using another method.zip cut on grinder may or may not be easier than plasma on thin aluminum. Preference thing.5. I believe 100% Ar???Yup6. What filler metal? Brand, model, dia., ect.?ideas suggested previously sound good7. CLEAN8.  I haven't experienced it myself yet, but no doubt Sundown's statement regarding fatigued / oxidized aluminum adds to the difficulty. And yes, there is very little to weld to.If it were mine - and it was a repair, not a restoration - I would first experiment with a backing bar and filling the crack using the spoolgun, rather than patching. I would be interested in Sundown's opinion on this. If it was acceptable, it would save a lot of headache over patching. I guarantee your first patch (if you don't have tons of prior experience) will have you cursing for hours XMT 350 MPA Dynasty 280DXSuitcase 8RC / OptimaSpoolmatic 30AThermco Ar / C02 mixerAssorted O/A gear
Reply:I would probably sell those as scrap.  Unless you just have time to kill, and not enough work in, I'd say the better choice would be to spend the time you would work on that on a paying job, to finance buying a better condition used 1436.  My main work is on aluminum jon boats in the 14 - 18 foot range (huge demand for jon boat - bass boat conversions in this area), and there is no way I'd take that job.  As much time as it would take to make that just float again, I would want it to be nice, and while it would float, it would still be a beat up mess.I personally wouldn't touch that with a spoolgun.  TIG is still going to be a pain, as in my experience, when they look like that, you have to go quite a ways to find aluminum that is clean enough to weld to.  Rivets and 3M 5200 would probably the best bet (even if you had TIG access/competence - I still do many riveted patches when working with thinner riveted boats - sometimes they are better than welding), but still a pain, given the location/shape of some of the issues.  You'll have to have some patience to form all your patches neatly to follow some of the curves.Who is John Galt?
Reply:Then there's always epoxy and glass....No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by bassboy1I would probably sell those as scrap.  Unless you just have time to kill, and not enough work in, I'd say the better choice would be to spend the time you would work on that on a paying job, to finance buying a better condition used 1436.  My main work is on aluminum jon boats in the 14 - 18 foot range (huge demand for jon boat - bass boat conversions in this area), and there is no way I'd take that job.  As much time as it would take to make that just float again, I would want it to be nice, and while it would float, it would still be a beat up mess.I personally wouldn't touch that with a spoolgun.  TIG is still going to be a pain, as in my experience, when they look like that, you have to go quite a ways to find aluminum that is clean enough to weld to.  Rivets and 3M 5200 would probably the best bet (even if you had TIG access/competence - I still do many riveted patches when working with thinner riveted boats - sometimes they are better than welding), but still a pain, given the location/shape of some of the issues.  You'll have to have some patience to form all your patches neatly to follow some of the curves.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWThen there's always epoxy and glass...
Reply:Originally Posted by jreynoldsweldingOUCH!They can be fixed, but like I said with a lot of time. Give him a chance first. Everybody is going to learn at sometime. And if he cant weld them with a spoolgun I wouldnt be doing it at all. Tig would take WAY to much time. Weld em up Stick man!
Reply:Originally Posted by Stick-manYa know DSW, after reading bassboy1's post, I am totally thinking JB weld! 100% serious! Where it is weak I can rivet in a stiffener plate and JB weld the holes, or the best product like that I can find. Whats the worst that can happen. If all else fails, I will scrap it and give the money to my buddy.Ok, for sealer I will use 3M 5200. Is JB Weld the best or do we have any better products available. I do have the "miracle" alum stick you use with a propane torch stuff from harbor freight. But I haven't tried it yet. I have a 2003 Lund 1800 Pro-V SE with a Yamaha VMAX 150 HPDI in the garage. I would like to keep this little guy for the small lakes around. I really don't want to scrap it!
Reply:Originally Posted by Stick-man. It is to have a little fun with my kids.
Reply:Hell, what about cutting out the entire floor and welding in a new thicker piece??? I could use alum angle for stiffeners. The sides and transom seem pretty thick."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:Originally Posted by Stick-manHell, what about cutting out the entire floor and welding in a new thicker piece??? I could use alum angle for stiffeners. The sides and transom seem pretty thick.
Reply:Originally Posted by jreynoldsweldingHave you priced aluminum latley?   Better go buy a 38Ft SCARAB.
Reply:Any body ever use this stuff. I read some good reviews.http://www.cabelas.com/fryprod-0/pro...9968.uts.shtml"Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:Originally Posted by Stick-manHell, what about cutting out the entire floor and welding in a new thicker piece??? I could use alum angle for stiffeners. The sides and transom seem pretty thick.
Reply:The best epoxy would probably be the West system. It's designed to do marine repairs, stick to alum, stainless, fiberglass, wood and so on, Not cheap, but very versitile depending on what parts you use and how you mix it.http://www.westsystem.com/ss/aluminum-boat-repair/.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by bassboy1How about riveting in a new piece instead of welding?  I would almost be inclined to buy a 48" wide piece of .063, chop 6" off one side, then getting someone with a brake to bend a 3" flange on each side, then rivet that to the existing side.  It would be quicker, and much less of a headache than trying to weld that thin stuff with a spoolgun, and gets you a decent boat.  There is no photo of the entire boat, so I can't see how far the damage goes forward, but looking at it, it almost looks as if the damage is limited to the back 10 feet of the boat, which would allow you to work almost entirely with the flat part of the hull, which would make the braked flanges somewhat practical (and save the cost of buying material for the forward most section of the hull).  Lap the new piece at the front, and the only real welding you have to do would be blocking off the backs of the formed chines, but I can actually think of a couple ways to do rivet on ends for those, if you wanted to get a little creative with some metal forming.For pricing reference, the last time I bought .063 (beginning of October) a 4 x 10 sheet was about 115 bucks.Originally Posted by DSWThe best epoxy would probably be the West system. It's designed to do marine repairs, stick to alum, stainless, fiberglass, wood and so on, Not cheap, but very versitile depending on what parts you use and how you mix it.http://www.westsystem.com/ss/aluminum-boat-repair/
Reply:This may seem a little redundant as it has been stated lots already but, if you don't have experience welding aluminum, especially thin oxidized stuff, don't take this on as a first project.  After working at a strictly aluminum production shop manufacturing tankers then going to a maintenance shop repairing trailers, I can say that oxidized aluminum is no fun. Add to the equation the thickness of the material and you have yourself quite the headache.  Welding aluminum is a lot different than welding steel.  I encourage you to try it sometime, but stick to some clean 3/16"+ material first I too would suggest rivets and sealant. Cut your patch, apply sealant just inside the edge on the side that will contact the boats surface, rivet it down, then apply sealant around the entire perimeter and the heads of the rivet, that is what I would to anyways.Whatever you end up doing, have fun!Thermal Arc 210Thermal Arc 95SLincoln Weld Pak 100
Reply:Sounds like a great time to teach those kids how to swim.Good life jackets should be on Santa's list."Replacing the bottom" is not as easy as it may seem.  That thickness aluminum will not support the weight of an adult without "stiffening".  That's why you see the runners attached to the bottom and the number of rivets attached to interior supports.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIISounds like a great time to teach those kids how to swim.Good life jackets should be on Santa's list."Replacing the bottom" is not as easy as it may seem.  That thickness aluminum will not support the weight of an adult without "stiffening".  That's why you see the runners attached to the bottom and the number of rivets attached to interior supports.
Reply:The issue I see is that the bottom of the boats are screwed up. You might fix the leaks on the boat then and you step in the wrong spot and make another crack.
Reply:As an aviation mechanic and a welder, i would totally do a riveted repair with sealant applied thinly before the patch is final riveted.  It would be quick, easy, cold and no warping.Syncrowave 350Coolmate 3Millermatic 251Spoolmatic 30A
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWThen there's always epoxy and glass...
Reply:Have you considered: http://www.muggyweld.com/aluminum.htmlLook at their Super Alloy 5.  It says that it is excellent for Aluminum boat repair.I have used this stuff on automotive A/C lines with excellent results.
Reply:I've used JB weld on a boat like that. As long as it's clean and scuffed up, it's no problem.
Reply:Another option is HTS-2000, it's a nonferrous solder/brazing rod... I've put some stuff together with that stuff that I couldn't beat apart with a a sledge hammer.   Basically have to heat the part up to ~725F to get it to melt and scrub it in with a wire brush, but once it's in it's crazy strong.Good luck!C