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Anybody that's been here for over a couple of months knows me........I'm always going thru transitions.Well, it's happening againLet's talk fillets, now I ain't talkin' filet mignon......................Some pics of the new way I'm doin' my thing. And some problems I'm having too.Come along for the ride, but make sure the suggestions, and any expertise, contributed to the thread is accompanied by some GOOD PICS. Let's make this about the metal, and not about the mouth.I got into a bad habit of whipping my rod. NO, NOT THAT ROD!!!!!!!!!!I'm settled into a pure drag mode.Push the rod into the joint until it hits metal, and let the puddle fill out the sides and contour. It's the method I've been developing, and may not be your particular method.No weaving, just allowing the puddle to follow the rod.Near as I can tell, the penetration is good across the full front face of the puddle judgeing by what I'm seeing in the crater.Dunno what yer seeing with yer peepers, but my height and width gauge is at the back end of the puddle where it meets the slag. There's a fine dark line that separates the molten pool from the cooling slag. That's a me thing, and may not be your thing.The rest seems to be watching the sides of the puddle, feeding the rod, following the lines of the joint, making sure that both legs are equal, and steady travel speed. Oh, and the angle of the rod too, just enough angle to keep the puddle from passing the rod. Adjust the amps on the machine so that it's hot, but not too hot. Excessive spatter means too hot, or maybe not. Depends on how you weld, and the penetration you want. But it's one heck of a mess to clean up after.All of this crap is related to the modifications I'm doing on a gooseneck hitch. A pretty important project. Your life may depend on it if you're following me on the highway.First off, a few pics of reinforcing webs on the bottom of a plate. And a few pics of the welds that attach the strongbacks to the plate. There are 2 welds... upper left, and lower right, that will feel the harsh effects of the grinder tomorrow. The other pics are of welds I feel comfotable with. Some minor undercut at the top of the weld, about few thousands. Remember the pics are from about 3 inches away.I'm thinking the undercut is from too fast travel speed, or incorrect angling of the rod, not allowing the force of the arc to drive the filler up into the crater. Maybe y'all got some suggestions(with suitable pics...........no porn ROFLMAO). The undercut is a big concern.Get into this, and enjoy it. It's pretty much like some of the other show and tell posts I like to put up. No harm, no foul. I have a pretty thick skin, and it's all about getting better at what we do.Multiple pass built up welds to follow this batch of pics. Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Now it's all about the builtup weld.I've always had trouble with these. Splitting the angles. Base welds on the bottom maybe too wide, and trouble closing the gap between the base welds and the top wall of the vertical plate First pass.........niceSecond pass.......nice, but maybe too wideThird pass...........ok, but it falls apart later. Gap between outside second pass, and first pass, too wide. Only way to fill the gap is with a weave, and it plays hell with the appearance of the weld, and doesn't do a thing for the mechanical properties of the weld. It is not a good weldBeen having this problem for years, and I finally took a look in the Bible. I might be missing one more pass. Not sure, but it's out there for comment.According to the literature there should be two passes on the floor, and three passes climbing the wall to tie it all together to form a nice 45 degree angle. Not sure about this, but it has some merit. 7018 doesn't seem to friendly to piling up metal. Might need that extra bead to provide a shelf for the last pass. Dunno Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI'm settled into a pure drag mode.
Reply:Wow Sam your welds have improved drastically. Keep up the good work. Also don't dismiss Mig it is your friend.I.B.E.W Electrician and Damn Proud of It !!!! .Virtus Junxit Mors Non Separabit http://www.shrinershospitalsforchildren.org/
Reply:Its much easer to weld in the flat position. How about tilting the work so the face of the first weld is flat and then work on the next filet?
Reply:then look pretty nice. In your first post the third pic. I looks like you have the heat and filler metal more focused on the bottom plate. Looks like it should have really good penatration on the flat piece but not nearly as much on the upright piece. Bring the rod to 45* angle into the joint so the heat is equally concentrated. Others may tell you different but thats how I was taught to do a fillet.
Reply:Originally Posted by transitIts much easer to weld in the flat position. How about tilting the work so the face of the first weld is flat and then work on the next filet?
Reply:Originally Posted by 99trxriderthen look pretty nice. In your first post the third pic. I looks like you have the heat and filler metal more focused on the bottom plate. Looks like it should have really good penatration on the flat piece but not nearly as much on the upright piece. Bring the rod to 45* angle into the joint so the heat is equally concentrated. Others may tell you different but thats how I was taught to do a fillet.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammAnybody that's been here for over a couple of months knows me........I'm always going thru transitions.Well, it's happening againLet's talk fillets, now I ain't talkin' filet mignon......................Some pics of the new way I'm doin' my thing. And some problems I'm having too.Come along for the ride, but make sure the suggestions, and any expertise, contributed to the thread is accompanied by some GOOD PICS. Let's make this about the metal, and not about the mouth.I got into a bad habit of whipping my rod. NO, NOT THAT ROD!!!!!!!!!!I'm settled into a pure drag mode.Push the rod into the joint until it hits metal, and let the puddle fill out the sides and contour. It's the method I've been developing, and may not be your particular method.No weaving, just allowing the puddle to follow the rod.Near as I can tell, the penetration is good across the full front face of the puddle judgeing by what I'm seeing in the crater.Dunno what yer seeing with yer peepers, but my height and width gauge is at the back end of the puddle where it meets the slag. There's a fine dark line that separates the molten pool from the cooling slag. That's a me thing, and may not be your thing.The rest seems to be watching the sides of the puddle, feeding the rod, following the lines of the joint, making sure that both legs are equal, and steady travel speed. Oh, and the angle of the rod too, just enough angle to keep the puddle from passing the rod. Adjust the amps on the machine so that it's hot, but not too hot. Excessive spatter means too hot, or maybe not. Depends on how you weld, and the penetration you want. But it's one heck of a mess to clean up after.All of this crap is related to the modifications I'm doing on a gooseneck hitch. A pretty important project. Your life may depend on it if you're following me on the highway.First off, a few pics of reinforcing webs on the bottom of a plate. And a few pics of the welds that attach the strongbacks to the plate. There are 2 welds... upper left, and lower right, that will feel the harsh effects of the grinder tomorrow. The other pics are of welds I feel comfotable with. Some minor undercut at the top of the weld, about few thousands. Remember the pics are from about 3 inches away.I'm thinking the undercut is from too fast travel speed, or incorrect angling of the rod, not allowing the force of the arc to drive the filler up into the crater. Maybe y'all got some suggestions(with suitable pics...........no porn ROFLMAO). The undercut is a big concern.Get into this, and enjoy it. It's pretty much like some of the other show and tell posts I like to put up. No harm, no foul. I have a pretty thick skin, and it's all about getting better at what we do.Multiple pass built up welds to follow this batch of pics.
Reply:Oh, crap. I forgot to mention the rod1/8 Excalibur 7018Settings as follows. Dialed back a bit because I was getting spatter.The Lincoln seems to be a good digger at this setting on this particular machine. Machines vary though. To say that the amps are precisely where you set them would be taking a big step out on a ledge Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammNow it's all about the builtup weld.I've always had trouble with these. Splitting the angles. Base welds on the bottom maybe too wide, and trouble closing the gap between the base welds and the top wall of the vertical plate First pass.........niceSecond pass.......nice, but maybe too wideThird pass...........ok, but it falls apart later. Gap between outside second pass, and first pass, too wide. Only way to fill the gap is with a weave, and it plays hell with the appearance of the weld, and doesn't do a thing for the mechanical properties of the weld. It is not a good weldBeen having this problem for years, and I finally took a look in the Bible. I might be missing one more pass. Not sure, but it's out there for comment.According to the literature there should be two passes on the floor, and three passes climbing the wall to tie it all together to form a nice 45 degree angle. Not sure about this, but it has some merit. 7018 doesn't seem to friendly to piling up metal. Might need that extra bead to provide a shelf for the last pass. Dunno
Reply:Originally Posted by Sparky#1It's weird you say that because schools should start you off out of position and then move to flat.
Reply:Sam has already been taught to weld out of position and has been doing extremely well...extremely.QamuIs Heg qaq law' lorvIs yInqaq puS
Reply:i do think it looks fine.But a slight criticism.post #2 third picwhen running your last bead (the top one) then use a slight weave holding a little longer on the top side to let it fill out, then pull the puddle down a little so it flows just over the crown of the weld bellowThis will leave a flatter 45 degree surface which wont have the "v" between the last pass and the one before it and therefore no where to trap slag in the next passes. Looks impressive also.I dont know about everyone else, but i always weave my 7018 even very slightly.Althought yours really do look great.PS the only thing i can see wrong with your settings is that the switch is at the off positionLast edited by gordfraser; 08-01-2009 at 10:08 PM.G
Reply:I am no expert and they look fine to me. Only thing I do notice is that your base metals don't look to be cleaned to well.
Reply:Originally Posted by gordfraserI dont know about everyone else, but i always weave my 7018 even very slightly.
Reply:Hmmm........this may take some thought....I'll get back to you! Sorry, my humor is all outta whack...I will tell you what I like about the pics; Post 2, picture number 1 is beautiful! Give me another one! There is a lot that I run through in my head beforehand about the right way to make a bead, rather than what went wrong with the last one. Too much can go wrong, I want to know what went right, and I want to keep doing that!! I do agree with the poster who noted the cleanliness issue however, 7018 is a white glove event. Another thing is temperature, preheat before and allow for some cooling inbetween passes. Never ever, no never, NEVER, NEVER QUENCH!!! Air cool naturally or post heat if you care. 7018 is built for multi-pass, watch the toes and be sure you have smooth transitions. If the toes are smooth, there is no where the wire brush (or wheel) can not clean the slag out. Undercut...(shuddering ) ...don't rush the puddle. I like to see the toes feather out, my main focus is the toes, time will slow down, I use that and watch the toes fill. If you drag in a straight line, you have to watch both sides simultaneously. If you zig-zag, you only have to watch one side at a time. I don't mean much, I am certainly not talking about a weave! I just try to give it some texture. Consistancy being one of my obvious weaknesses, these toes accomplished what I just tried to describe, sorry, it ain't painted with stick. But the same goes for 7018. Attached ImagesCity of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:I found a practice 7018 three pass tee joint picture. Not much to write about actually.A recent project truck also nought done in E7018. Attached ImagesCity of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:SOME PICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FINALLY (at this point, it wouldn't matter if they were of your Aunt Gertrude hangin' laundry)The undercut is a problem. I agree. 7018 is gravity challenged.While I have as clear view of the puddle as I can see, the little crack at the top of the vertical plate(the undercut) is virtually invisible. Travel speed(slower), and a slight angle below 45 definitely has shown itself to solve the problem. The arc seems to force the puddle a little higher on the wall, and fill better.It's sorta like a concert........one bad note ruins the whole symphonyAt this point, I'm not willing to do the slightest manipulation. It's been a problem in the past. I understand what you're saying about a tiny little "wash". At this point I prefer to stay as pure as the driven snowI WANT TO BECOME ONE WITH THE PUDDLE"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersamm[SIZE="5"]At this point, I'm not willing to do the slightest manipulation. It's been a problem in the past. I understand what you're saying about a tiny little "wash". At this point I prefer to stay as pure as the driven snowI WANT TO BECOME ONE WITH THE PUDDLE
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammSOME PICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FINALLY (at this point, it wouldn't matter if they were of your Aunt Gertrude hangin' laundry)The undercut is a problem. I agree. 7018 is gravity challenged.While I have as clear view of the puddle as I can see, the little crack at the top of the vertical plate(the undercut) is virtually invisible. Travel speed(slower), and a slight angle below 45 definitely has shown itself to solve the problem. The arc seems to force the puddle a little higher on the wall, and fill better.
Reply:sorry about the delay of pics.7018-1 not fresh, but in a sealed container.131A DCEP (you gota love digital)no intentional manipulation apart from travel speed.20 degree lead (ish) and lower than 45 degrees viewed from the end (you know what i mean)sorry for the phone pics.there is no undercut on the vertical part, but some slight signs of under fill, so i dont think id put any more amps in there.I slowed the forward travel down to let the puddle do its thing, hope that was in the rulesFirsd bead Attached ImagesG
Reply:second Attached ImagesG
Reply:thirdi found it hard not to manipulate the puddle with the rod. but i refrained.Anyone know of an affordable camera that takes good closeups? Attached ImagesG
Reply:Originally Posted by joethemechanicFarmersamm, we got to get you hooked up with a young hottie. The thought of you in drag is just not pleasant. Not to mention those kind of gowns are very dangerous to weld in. You could end up a flaming queen.Originally Posted by DDA52Sam has already been taught to weld out of position and has been doing extremely well...extremely.
Reply:I may know a guy...he can do 20 ga.QamuIs Heg qaq law' lorvIs yInqaq puS
Reply:Originally Posted by crawlerDo you know any good stick welders? I heard some guys can stick weld 18 gauge sheet metal.
Reply:Um...we were referring to me.QamuIs Heg qaq law' lorvIs yInqaq puS
Reply:Thanks for the pics Gordon, and TanglediverNow let's get even MORE anal if it's possible Well, let me get a bit more analIn some ways all of us are missing the boat to a certain degree.I've used the 3 pass built up fillet joint for years and years. I never got the results I really wanted. The last pass seemed to always come up short. In order to fill the entire gap between the second and first pass, the third pass had to be weaved or whipped to build metal. Whipping can create a bead as wide and as high as you want, but it just ain't rightSince I've changed my approach to 7018 I've found that a puddle more than 2 to 2 1/2 times the rod diameter just doesn't do a satisfactory job. A wide weave takes the arc out of the puddle, and letting the metal wash wider than a few times the rod dia. means that there's no penetration on the outer edges of the wash.Tight hot puddles seem to produce the best results.I'm coming around to stacking beads instead of weaving to widen, or heighten beads. It's taking an extra pass or so, but the results are much better it seems.Pic one.........The way we should really be doing the built up fillets. Source "Stick Electrode Guide" by Lincoln. It's a four pass weld. On all the welds we've put up so far, we were running wide at the bottom, and too narrow on the third pass or forcing it up the vertical wall too high. I'm seeing the lightPics two and three.......... Putting my money where my mouth is This is a lap weld on 3/8 plate. It was done in 3 passes. A hot tight root pass. A second pass aimed at the outer toe of the first pass, and just allowed to flow to the very lip of the plate, and bisecting the first bead. The third pass was stacked on top of the first 2 passes. A true 45 degree angle solidly filled with excellent penetration on all 3 passes. And nicely focused tight beads. AND THIS IS A RELATIVELY NARROW WELD. I used to do this kind of weld in one passA true one pass weld would have taken, I'm figuring, around 1/4" rod.Ok.........so I'm becoming a nut (nuttier?)Drag and fill Drag and fillThe New and Improved Okie Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:This was a redo, because I kept looking at the first results, and couldn't live with it The grinder was happy, but I wasn't, until I saw the second go around"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by crawlerDo you know any good stick welders? I heard some guys can stick weld 18 gauge sheet metal.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI've used the 3 pass built up fillet joint for years and years. I never got the results I really wanted. The last pass seemed to always come up short. In order to fill the entire gap between the second and first pass, the third pass had to be weaved or whipped to build metal. Whipping can create a bead as wide and as high as you want, but it just ain't right
Reply:Originally Posted by loudnproudin a 3 bead fillet don't intentionally aim at the root's toe when running the 2nd bead. watch the puddle and make sure the 2nd bead covers 2/3's of the root and the 3rd bead covers the 2nd by about 1/2.
Reply:Even before I started to get my act together, I always wondered if there was adequate penetration on the second pass. Being as it is on parent metal, shouldn't the second pass also have some degree of penetration? Sort of the anchor to the pile of building blocksAs you're climbing the hill with subsequent passes, the main aim is to get good fusion with previous passes it seems. The final cap is again having to penetrate the vertical plateSort of like good anchors at both ends of the bridge"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Crap, I keep thinking of more stuffIsn't each pass on parent metal a root pass to some degree, if not entirely?Gettin' pretty esoterical here"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by crawlerDon,Do you know any good stick welders? I heard some guys can stick weld 18 gauge sheet metal. Charles
Reply:Crawler has been to my shop, Sam. He saw it in person as well, although I welded thinner stuff with you. Denrep, 18ga and 20ga are THIN...not heavy.QamuIs Heg qaq law' lorvIs yInqaq puS
Reply:Originally Posted by DDA52. . . Denrep, 18ga and 20ga are THIN...not heavy.
Reply:On a three pass horizontal fillet:First pass should be equal legged and do not try for a large bead that will give you problems. The electrode should be at 45 degrees as mentioned before however SHIFT the rod down so that it is pointing not at the corner but about one wire diameter on the flat side of the fillet. This slight adjustment does wonders in preventing undercut on the vertical face. If you get undercut on this first pass, no worries, because it is being covered anyway. Second pass should be almost completely on top of first pass. Most people lay the bead out front too far increasing the length of the bottom leg of the fillet way too much. When the pass is done you should see about a third of the first bead remaining at the most. You concentrate on getting a smooth connection to the base metal on the horizontal. The two beads will create a small little flat spot on the top edge of the fillet. this little landing is for your third bead. The third pass is what makes the weld look nice. All you want to do is run a bead that ties in to the top of bead two and fuses to the vertical surface, This bead should be the smallest of the three, Because it is a small bead you avoid undercut. With 7018 just do what you were doing before only slightly increase forward travel speed to reduce bead size. The key is bead number two . If you have the bottom leg too large and the bead coming out on the front edge too far then you will need a much larger top third weld bead to fill the triangle. When you try to make that large third bead you have trouble managing the large puddle and you get undercut or a groove between 2 and 3 down the face of the bead. Multiple pass fillets are all about planning. If your foundation beads are in the wrong location you are hooped. Repairs: You cannot have undercut or that groove along the face of a bead when in a fatigue situation. You are sending out an invitation for a fatigue crack. Even though 7018 is hard to shape you can lay down some quite small beads that still are flat if you practice. It is a matter of increasing forward speed while maintaining some sort of weave or J motion to fuse the edges as you go. With practice you can run a repair bead along a line of undercut or along a groove on a face and it will look like it was an intended pass.When you are practicing try the repair on your screwups. It is skill building and of course you one day might be asked to repair someone else's undercut.
Reply:Now I'm stressed about excessive undercutI need to use a better cleaning method than the chipping hammer. Ran a cup brush over the thing to see if I was in trouble.Apparently notFor a great article/code recital go to http://www.dot.state.oh.US/Divisions...d-Welding-InspI don't do links good, hope it worksLast edited by farmersamm; 08-06-2009 at 09:57 AM."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Aw crap, I forgot the pics of the CLEANED welds Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Farmersam,Sorry, no pic at the moment. At first glance I would have to say that the angle of your rod should be lower; less than 45. This will push heat higher into the strong back. Right now there is more weld on the bottom, and the heat is focused on less metal of the strong back (gusset), and therefor more vulnerable to undercut. Avoid stopping the weld on an outside corner; the heat has nowhere to go, and pause for a moment before you stop the weld; it allows the crater to fill.
Reply:Like I said, I'm no good at typing linksDo a search "Ohio bridge welding inspection fillet welds", go to the current page if directed, and you're thereAllowable undercut in a fillet is .01 on a member under tensile load(ie a beam), all other welds cannot exceed 1/32 undercut.WOULD SOMEBODY PLEASE CREATE A LINK TO THIS PAGEthank you"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammLike I said, I'm no good at typing linksDo a search "Ohio bridge welding inspection fillet welds", go to the current page if directed, and you're thereAllowable undercut in a fillet is .01 on a member under tensile load(ie a beam), all other welds cannot exceed 1/32 undercut.WOULD SOMEBODY PLEASE CREATE A LINK TO THIS PAGEthank you
Reply:Originally Posted by gordfraserthirdi found it hard not to manipulate the puddle with the rod. but i refrained.Anyone know of an affordable camera that takes good closeups?
Reply:Gordfraser check your PM's..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Don't know if this is the page Sam wanted or not. Hope so, Sam. http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions...tion-Guide.pdf
Reply:Thanks Crawler, and SandyNot only am I metalurgaclly challenged, I'm internet challenged"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Crappy spelling, but ya get the drift"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/ |
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