MIG Amperage VS Stick Amperage?

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Maybe you guys can help me here.  I am a self taught welder, and I have been trying to learn as much as possible.  I don't do this for money, and its purely a hobby for me.  Right now I am running a Lincoln 140a MIG, 180a setup for flux core, and an Invertec V250s stick/TIG machine.  Here's my question.  What is the difference in running a 1/8" electrode in stick at 110-115 amps, versus MIG with .023 and 75/25 and .035 FC at the same amperage?  Now, I am not talking about the various stick electrodes, just a basic understanding of whether one of the three can do "more" at the same amperage with the various electrodes/wire on mild steel.  Let's say you are using 3/16-1/4" mild steel, which is going to offer the most penetration and why?  Thanks!
Reply:Dunno about the wire parameters, don't do too much of it.  I just keep turning the machine up with wire.  LOLStick depends on the rod.  110 amps with 6011 is pretty good if travel speed is slow.  Any other 1/8 rod on that amperage sucks.  But that depends on the thickness of the material.  Thin, it might be good........thick, it's badRod, thickness of material makes the decision.  Not much info to go on"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:110 amps, 7018, 11ga material, and you can get a nice weld.  On 1/4 material, yus pushin' it.Doggone"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:This sounds like one of those apple vs orange Ford vs Dodge things. You must look at the work needing to be done and the energy needed to accomplish it. It will take X number of Joules of energy or btu's  to weld (1/4" fillet on steel with a total mass of 1 pound) Your question has a flaw in the manner you asked it . SMAW (stick) is a constant current (cc)process and the other two processes you mentioned are constant voltage (cv) processes using two polarity settings.   So the measure of just the amperage is only one third of the equation needed to solve the total energy used.  So what is the process that will give the best penetration for a given amount of energy expended??? I would guess FCAW with a duel shielding. But then penetration is only one part of the equation for a good welded joint.Last edited by Fat Bastard; 06-18-2009 at 04:31 AM.
Reply:Interesting question.  I think the factors to consider are amperage, voltage, and deposition rate.  In consumable electrode processes like stick and mig, the majority of arc energy is transferred to the the workpiece by the molten droplets of the electrode/filler.  The arc energy melts the electrode/filler and propels it to the workpiece.  Amps x volts is the power in watts, and deposition rate is the mass of molten metal being transferred across the arc to the base metal.So, if you have a given stick electrode diameter that is running smoothly at some amps and  volts and some lbs/hr deposition, then a mig wire of given diameter running at different amps  and volts, but at the same total watts and same lbs/hr, should give about the same amount of base metal melting and general weld size.  Of course other factors would have to be more or less equal, like travel speed, torch angle, push/pull, etc.
Reply:I can try to answer.  You can weld a lot of things with 3/32 7018 at 85 amps using multi pass.Flux core will run "hotter" than Mig for the same volts and amps.As the metal gets bigger, you need more amps.  It IS that simple no matter what process you are using.Each job is individual, so the decision of which process chosen has more to do with the job than which will penetrate more.  If all you have is stick, you will learn how to make it work.  If all you have is a 110 mig, you are limited no matter what.I have a 100 amp Mig and it is a great little machine.  It sure has its limitations, but for what it was intended for you can't beat it. It will NOT do what my V250-S does.I had a V250-S.  Its a fine stick machine and good tig welder, but down low its not as great on either one.  It will NOT do what the 100 amp mig does.David Last edited by David R; 06-18-2009 at 07:41 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I don't think I worded my question correctly.  Let's say you had all three machines set at 100 amps, or even better, 125 amps.  Now, let's assume that all three machines are running the appropriate sized electrode for the amperage, will one necessarily offer more penetration on mild steel compared with the others?
Reply:Originally Posted by Jason280I don't think I worded my question correctly.  Let's say you had all three machines set at 100 amps, or even better, 125 amps.  Now, let's assume that all three machines are running the appropriate sized electrode for the amperage, will one necessarily offer more penetration on mild steel compared with the others?
Reply:Sandy, another thing to consider, if I'm right, is the ability of larger dia stick electrodes to efficiently carry the amperage vs. a skinny wire.I may have just repeated what others say, including yourself, in a different way, I dunnoI doggone sure know there's a difference.If you want to get it done, and be confident of penetration, on a crucial load bearing weld, it's generally the stick weld that lets you sleep well at night.Maybe I'm just stuck on stick, and not giving the other process a fair shake"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammSandy, another thing to consider, if I'm right, is the ability of larger dia stick electrodes to efficiently carry the amperage vs. a skinny wire.I may have just repeated what others say, including yourself, in a different way, I dunnoI doggone sure know there's a difference.If you want to get it done, and be confident of penetration, on a crucial load bearing weld, it's generally the stick weld that lets you sleep well at night.Maybe I'm just stuck on stick, and not giving the other process a fair shake
Reply:It's all about parameters.  Just exactly what are you doing, and with what are you doing it with?We're on the same page"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammIt's all about parameters.  Just exactly what are you doing, and with what are you doing it with?We're on the same page
Reply:Jason280 If you can give us some more clues as to what you are trying to figure out we can help.Limiting us to the parameters in your question is not doing you justice in getting an answer.
Reply:First, let me preface with saying that I am not trying to pick one process over the other, or attempting to start a debate on which is better.  I understand the seemingly endless number of options in comparing the three, specifically wire/electrode size, shielding gas, wire speed, etc...  I am just curious if one process inherently offers more penetration than another.
Reply:I am also curious to know whether one process inherently offers more penetration than another.  It seems like everyone is always saying that stick is what you need for "heavy, thick machinery welding," but why?  If I have a welder of each type set at 125amps and each welder has the perfect ideal electrodes/gas/wire speed, then which would handle the thicker metal better?  If the answer is that they are equal, then why is stick always touted as the best for thick?
Reply:Hello Jason280, if you look at the penetration characteristics of SMAW, FCAW-self shielded, GMAW, there are variables that can affect penetration, ie, SMAW is often done in the DC+ polarity(unless you are using an AC power source) and dependant upon the particular rod type, you can either have a deep penetrating weld deposit or a shallower one dependant upon the electrode that you have selected. E6011 or 6010 will yield a digging type arc and provide quite a bit of penetration, E7018 or E6013 will yield a somewhat shallower type of penetration.      FCAW-self shielded utilizes the DC- polarity and thus will provide more pentration than many DC+ current electrode choices.      GMAW can go many different ways with regard to penetration, shielding gas type can have a lot to do with the penetration characteristics of a given amp/volt setting. The more argon that is in the mix, the deeper the penetration in most cases, with the addition of helium to the mix this can be further influenced. As others have mentioned, if there is a specific concern that you have regarding penetration and the need for it, you might want to spell it out here so that everyone can address it for you specifically. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Originally Posted by teronasI am also curious to know whether one process inherently offers more penetration than another.  It seems like everyone is always saying that stick is what you need for "heavy, thick machinery welding," but why?  If I have a welder of each type set at 125amps and each welder has the perfect ideal electrodes/gas/wire speed, then which would handle the thicker metal better?  If the answer is that they are equal, then why is stick always touted as the best for thick?
Reply:Stick welding does with 6010. Now go practice. When you can snatch the redhot splatter from my hand, it will be time for you to leave. Attached ImagesCity of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny