Need Some Pointers on welding my Tig

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I picked up a used ESAB 252 last week and went to plug it in my 50 amp mig outlet today and when i turned it on 2 out of 3 times it throws the breaker.I havnt even tryed to weld with it yet,,Anyway I drew up a diagram of my wiring,My subpanel in the garage is full and my box on the house is full. Do I need to get a bigger sub for the garage and set up  a dedicated breaker in there for the TIG? Is it safe to use a 50amp plug with this machine? I dont plan on running it any where near its max probably at only about 100 to 120 amps on average,,,,thanks jim BTW sorry for the typo error on the title I meant wiring my tigHere is some specs on it belowESAB 230(208)/460 Vac, 60 Hz, 1 PhaseInput Current @Rated Load inAmperes***                      220 V 230 V w/o P.F.C.** 100        96with P.F.C.**  88         70 Attached ImagesLast edited by jim cafarelli; 12-22-2009 at 12:45 AM.
Reply:That was my problem when I bought a bigger welder..  On the house's main panel I had a 100 amp breaker supplying the shop sub-panel, but the sub-panel in the shop was a small one and was already maxxed out with every slot filled.  So, a trip to Home-Depot and about $120 later, I had a subpanel with lots more slots.  I put a 60 amp breaker for the 220 volts to the welder outlet that I installed.  Running the heavier gauge (60 amp) wire and to the new outlet was a lot of work, but I'm glad I did it now.Lincoln AC225 & MigPak 140, Lincoln Magnum SpoolGun, Miller Spectrum 375-X Plasma, Syncrowave 200 TIG, Millermatic 252 MIG, Miller Digital Elite, General 7x12" horiz/vert bandsaw, 3' box/pan brake, 20 ton press, milling machine, 12x28 lathe, etc.
Reply:A dedicated 60 amp 220 v circuit is probably the best bet (and the safest).  If I remember correctly, that is what Lincoln recommends for the Precision Tig 225.Last edited by papabear; 12-22-2009 at 06:22 AM."SOUTHPAW" A wise person learns from another persons mistakes;A smart person learns from their own mistakes;But, a stupid person.............never learns.
Reply:I'm no electrician, but if it throws the breaker just by turning it on and not trying to weld, something is not wired correctly. This machine can be jumpered internally for the input voltage, do you have it setup for 230V?  Have you got a manual, you can find one here:http://www.esabna.com/us/en/support/...20%20Stick-Tig
Reply:Below is a photo of the internal wiring ,I believe that's right.It worked this way when i demo it at the fellows shop before I bought it.From what I hear this machine draws a lot of juice on start up,,,DDA out here on the board and the previous owner gave me a heads up on that..I was hoping to sneak by on the 50amp but i don't think its going to happen.   thanks jim Attached Images
Reply:OK i will admit, I am no electrician, but however last time I knew 208 and 230 are legs pulled from a 3 phase line. 220 and 240 are legs pulled off a single phase line like your house. The welder is showing 2 230 v legs leading to 460, that to me is 3 phase. (Kinda like when you pull a leg from 480 v 3 phase and a neutral you get a 277 v leg to run lighting) I never opened a welder like this before but I am kinda confused. Is this standard for these or is there some kind of inverter inside of these bigger machines?so in my logic, you cannot get 2 230 volt legs from one household 220 v line because house wireing is 110 v and 110 v =220. Am I wrong?
Reply:DJ,"ESAB 230(208)/460 Vac, 60 Hz, 1 Phase"It is a single phase machine.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:I have my precision tig 275 on a 50 amp circuit at the moment.It works fine. I can do about 180 continuous and can get about 200 breifly.I don't know about your machine specifically and I don't know a whole lot about wiring but I would tend to agree if turning it on pops a breaker then I think something must be wrong.Look for an online manual. I'm guessing it should be easilly findable on Esabs site. I can find and pull up the manual for my Tig off Lincolns site quicker than I can tell you about it.Can't wait to get more juice to mine though.Lincoln precision TIG 275Millermatic 140 MIG
Reply:what kind of compressor do you havethats hooked up to 50 amp mine is 220and only needs 15amp Attached Images
Reply:My compressor is pretty big ,,I probably should have a 30 amp breaker on it but either way I wouldn't even try to fire up the ESAB with the compressor running..I was talking to a fellow today he was telling me that the one of the advantages of Inverter Tigs vs transformer Tigs is that when a Inverter is turned on it draws little of nothing until you start to weld were a transformer could draw 50 or 60 just sitting there on,,it make sense the way this is acting one other thing I noticed some tigs come with a "power factor correction" some as an option or can be bought and installed after and from what im gathering it softens the surge on start up.Kind of like the starter box on the wall for my compressor.Well tommorrow I plan on some how wiring this up to 100 amps and will see how she does.. Il keep you posted on what plays out,,,thanks jim Attached Images
Reply:Adding PFC will INCREASE the no load current Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Broccoli1,,sounds like I got that wrong and thats not what im needing?,,,thanks jim
Reply:Originally Posted by jim cafarelliBroccoli1,,sounds like I got that wrong and thats not what im needing?,,,thanks jim
Reply:Wait a minute there.Which breaker is tripping when you turn on the welder?  And which circuit/breaker is the welder plugged into?A big transformer on a big welder (and YES, a 252-class machine is on the big side for a home machine) draws a big slug of juice (current) when you turn it on.  That is one reason why the recommended/required circuit breaker for the machine is BIGGER than the input current at the rated load for the machine.The specs you listed for the machine say that at the RATED load it will draw 96 amps when the supply voltage is 230V (without the PFC circuitry option).  If that is the -rated- current draw for the machine, then the manual probably calls for at least a 120amp circuit breaker and the associated wiring (depending a bit on the machine's duty cycle rating for some of the wiring size specs).Let's look at that again.  The machine will DRAW near 100 amps at the machine's rated load.  Thus unless the machine is a very electrically efficient new-gen inverter circuitry type of machine, the machine has a BIG curent draw when first turned on.  There is no way that a 50 amp breaker and circuit wiring is appropriate for that machine.  Not even if you say to yourself "But I'm only going to use it at about 100 amps or so."  And yes Ed, the Miller and Lincoln manuals usaully not only tell you what the machine uses amp-wise, but also what the machine needs for the wiring and the circuit breaker.Let's see if ESAB has the manual for the 252 online ...ESAB Heliarc 252 AC/DC TIG machine?  The 375 pound big monster?  That machine is 'rated' at 280 amps at a 40% duty cycle at 30 volts.  It can pump out 320 amps at max.    Yeah, that's a BIG machine for a home.http://products.esabna.com/index.php...rc_252-352.pdfThe manual for the Heliarc 250 AC/DC machine (closest I can see at a quick look in the ESAB library of manuals) says the machine draws 96 amps imput at 230V at the rated load.  That seems to match what you typed above about the input current.  The manual further says that the machine is supposed to be 'fed' from a 150 amp circuit using #2AWG (copper) when wired on a 230V circuit (non-PFC model).http://www.esabna.com/literature/Arc...250%20acdc.pdfThat machine is too big really for your subpanel and its breakers and wiring.  Even if you say "But I'm only going to use it at 100 amps."  And running it off of a 50 amp plug?  Nope.    That's not kosher either, the 100-150 amp input current is way past the NEMA 6-50 plug/receptacle rating too.  And I don't think the NEMA 6-50 items I've seen could accept #2 AWG copper wiring either.    Hubbell says their NEMA 6-50 items accept #10 through #4 AWG copper wire.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Found the manual for the Heliarc 252.http://www.esabna.com/literature/Arc...rc_252-352.pdfSays similar to what I typed above about the Heliarc 250, including the 150 amp time-delay fuse for a 230V circuit.  But they now say #6 AWG copper 90C wire (THHN or similar).  Still a nono on wiring that beast up with a NEMA 6-50 plug/outlet.  That's supposed to be (and needs to be) hardwired into a circuit disconnect.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:my mm251 is on a 50 amp breakernever had it trip
Reply:Originally Posted by ed macmy mm251 is on a 50 amp breakernever had it trip
Reply:ed,The MM252 is a 251-class MIG machine.  200 pounds of machine (roughly) versus nearly 400 pounds of machine for the big ESAB.The ESAB Heliarc 252 is -rated- at 280 amps and tops out at 320 amps.  Big transformer, big footprint, big machine for home.  Whole different class of machine than a 250-class MIG machine.  Miller TIG unit in the same 'class' as the ESAB would be a Syncrowave 250DX.  Lincoln would be a PrecisionTig 275.  More recent gen inverter unit from Lincoln would be an Invertec 310T AC/DC.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Update:::::,I spent the better part of the last 5 days or so cleaning up,repainting the 252,rebuilding the cart and chasing everything I was needing to fire up my new used TIG  today to try burning a few welds.So i got back from my what was hoping was my final parts run to find out i got the wrong style 100 amp breaker.So since it was ready to plug in and go I coundnt resist,so I plugged it in and it threw the 50amp breaker so I tried it again and it stayed on,So I left it going and spent almost 2 hours burning practice beads.Mild steel at about 120amps,nothing over that I didnt want to push it.Leads me to believe it draws alot on startup,,So it may not be right on but for now I plan on hard wiring it in and running it off a 100amp breaker,,if it gives me fits its going up for sale..I posted a few of the resto job.I found a PPG paint DCC line one of there toners its called Organic Yellow is a nice match to the new yellow on the ESABs. and a photo of one of my best welds of the day,Its no stack of dimes, its going to be a learning curve no dought but the machine appears to be working well.Moonrise ,,I appreciate  very much for the info,the photo tells the story,You are right it is a big welder and heavy,Im hoping itll work with the juice I can supply... thanks again jim Attached ImagesLast edited by jim cafarelli; 12-24-2009 at 02:23 AM.
Reply:Transformers have a high inrush current when energized, often referred to as magnetizing current. This is what is tripping your circuit breaker when you power it on. I just purchased a barely used Miller Syncrowave 180SD. Input rating at full ouptut is 54A at 230v, which is what I am providing it. I have about a 30' run from my 200A panel in my garage to the outlet the welder is connected to. That run is 6ga copper wire and is connected to a 60A breaker. It's not a bad idea to oversize the wire going to the welder outlet.That's a nice looking machine!
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Adding PFC will INCREASE the no load current
Reply:Originally Posted by slodatTransformers have a high inrush current when energized, often referred to as magnetizing current. This is what is tripping your circuit breaker when you power it on. I just purchased a barely used Miller Syncrowave 180SD. Input rating at full ouptut is 54A at 230v, which is what I am providing it. I have about a 30' run from my 200A panel in my garage to the outlet the welder is connected to. That run is 6ga copper wire and is connected to a 60A breaker. It's not a bad idea to oversize the wire going to the welder outlet.That's a nice looking machine!
Reply:If I'm not mistaking the PFC refers to a power factor correction circuit..