Need some wisdom !

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This happened to me today and wanted to know  what you fellers that have been burnin wire for a few years think about this . I am 43 yr. old machinist   and have been for about 25 yrs. i work in  a union shop  we have a heavy machine shop and a weld shop in a separate building i have been there almost 17 yrs. and am getting pretty burnt out on machining and do a little welding at home but nothing   to the magnitude our weld shop does. i have  taken a few night classes and have built a few things for myself and  by my own addition  i DO NOT  claim to be a welder/fabricator  but i want to learn to be . so that being said we have been having allot problem hiring and keeping good welders we have 4 guys out there that in my opinion are damn good ones they build some pretty cool stuff " which i am fascinated by " so in order to bid to the weld shop you have to pass vertical uphill 1 in. plate that gets a bend test "which i am sure you are all familiar with " so i went out there (off the clock ) to practice for a few hrs. a night for about 4 nights and got a few pointers from a couple of fellas "which i was quite grateful  for  and told them so "  . last Thursday  i went out there and took the test and did quite well on it and was told by the foreman that the metallurgist said that was the best bend test he has seen come out of there " and believe me there was no one more surprised to hear that than me " i told him" i just got  lucky " and i meant it ! so i get the bid because no one else could pass the test . i go out there this afternoon and one of the most senior guys out there tells me "you are number one in seniority out here" and my reply was " oh didn't know that whats that have to do with anything  " " nothing personal but don't ask me for any help you have seniority on me and should not need any help so don't ask me " and i get along with this guy and every body else out there  for that matter so  i was pretty takin back . i told him what my objective was, to learn what you guys do out here and just get along and i am not trying to get in anybodies way or disrupt your world out here .  i am not one of those people that likes to" TOOT MY OWN HORN " i believe actions speak louder than words so i left it at that . i am one of those people i don't care who you are or when you walked in the door if you say "i need help " barring you being a arrogant raving a*****e i will help you i thought that's what a brotherhood was all about . tell me do you guys think this is unfair because i  damn sure do !     thanks . CT
Reply:Depends how you look at it. I assume he's saying you have seniority because you have the most years in with the company. I'm guessing he's a bit ticked because you just stepped in and pushed everyone else down.How would you like it if someone new came in and they knew less than you did, and lowered your chances of better pay etc after you put in a lot of years of hard work getting where you are?I've had to train managers who just got hired and came in and took over after I'd been the one doing their job, but without all the bennies and extra pay. It doesn't exactly endear you to them when that happens.Last edited by DSW; 11-07-2012 at 08:37 PM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:A real union brother will accept you with open arms and help you in ANY way he can.Period.
Reply:It happens all the time.  The bottom line is "skills and abilities" will rule over seniority.  In your case I guess you had both.  In a shipyard I saw many try to challenge a less senior welder but they were not passing x-ray inspections so they got bumped and the junior man got the work.  He made 80K one year LOL.
Reply:Originally Posted by Showdog75A real union brother will accept you with open arms and help you in ANY way he can.Period.
Reply:I'm in a Union shop in KC not far from you, I'm in the Maintenance Dept and our Company used to have our Apprenticeship setup so that anyone in the Plant (including a guy that was 1 yr from Retirement) could take the Apprentice slot just by their Plant Seniority. Then after four yrs the employee gets to bump somebody (that trained him) off of the premium shift (days) because he had Plant wide Seniority. Most good Union shops have something called Departmental Seniority. That would fix this problem. What my company decided to do was to shut down the Apprenticeship altogether because the only guys that will get it were the guys that were close to retirement. We need younger people. I used to work at a place years ago where Plant wide Seniority was only good for vacation and benefits. Shift bidding was done by Dept Seniority. Never heard a single compliant about it there. Only the younger folks were willing to start over or go to night shift. Maintenance Dept's are not like the production folks. Everyday on the job is an education. The Production folks or people that do repetitive tasks out there can have it hard too but they do something that a work procedure can spell out and they follow it. Whether they do the task 20 times or 1000 times there is really nothing learned. In Skilled Trades, a new guy knowledge wise may never catch up to the seasoned employee, but now can displace him with less knowledge. In your situation, a few fellows helped you pass a test that you may or may not have been able to have passed. In most cases the requirement would be + yrs experience + test. I have seen welders here help their fishing buddies pass our test as well, and now we don't call our welders "skilled" anymore. Honestly the guy(s) may be upset, but they will get over it as they will get to know you. It's really not your fault. Unions should be about helping each other and above all else "working safe". Good luck!
Reply:Personally, I'd be pissed too. After spending so much time and effort into an apprenticeship learning specific skill sets, and then time in-shop, to have a guy waltz in after 1 test? Especially if it affected my shift and overtime opportunities! But, you seem like an enthusiastic guy, willing to learn, go the extra mile, since you did it to pass the test, I would suggest a few things to warm this man's heart. (I have experience with warming butt-hurt hearts as first female apprentice in a field of 500 journeymen)Do not throw your seniority around. Shift bumps, overtime tie breakers, what ever your shop uses seniority for.Leave the man be. Do your best to defer to him on jobs if you are on the same project (do not read into this as him doing most of the work - use the skills you learned as an apprentice machinist to anticipate what is going to need to be done for the project and take the grunt work of it)If you leave him alone and continue to show a desire to hone your skills and skill sets. He will most likely come around.  Congratulations on your new Skilled Trade.
Reply:There's probably more to it than you will ever know.... Something like he was trying to get his worthless son-in-law a job as a welder so he could cover his ***......orThere are some people who I run across that are never happy with any situation. You just can't please them.But again, you have "senority". That's the ax that cuts both ways. Give him time to "sort and digest" the situation. In the mean time, learn all you can. The day wll come (sooner than you think) when your body begins to wear out and a supervision job may begin to look pretty good.Lincoln SA200's... at least 15 - 20. They come and go. Growing partial to the "Short Hoods" in my old age. Last count on Short Hoods was 13 in possession.
Reply:Honestly, time on the job should'nt mean anything but to your pension, That was a change of title, and I feel you should go right back to the end of the seniority list! The reason these guys may be angry is they have a hard enough time due to seniority picking vacations and days off and stuff amongst each other, and now you come along and bump them all back and get to reap all the benefits. If your younger than them and stay with the company till you retire, you just cut off a whole career of working your way up for these guys! Title change! End of the list, sorry bro! You did it for the money right! I'm sure they would have helped you with open arms if you just wanted to learn to fabricate and weld. The machinests on my job work like gentlemen, me and the other welders work like dirty filthy animals. No machinest would give that up long term just to learn how to weld and fab. Money talks, BS walks!I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeHonestly, time on the job should'nt mean anything but to your pension, That was a change of title, and I feel you should go right back to the end of the seniority list! The reason these guys may be angry is they have a hard enough time due to seniority picking vacations and days off and stuff amongst each other, and now you come along and bump them all back and get to reap all the benefits. If your younger than them and stay with the company till you retire, you just cut off a whole career of working your way up for these guys! Title change! End of the list, sorry bro! You did it for the money right! I'm sure they would have helped you with open arms if you just wanted to learn to fabricate and weld. The machinests on my job work like gentlemen, me and the other welders work like dirty filthy animals. No machinest would give that up long term just to learn how to weld and fab. Money talks, BS walks!
Reply:You bet your hiney hole it's an ego thing! Suppose they did that to you since you made more money as a machinest, and a welder did the money move. Then all of a sudden no more summer vacation, no more the day off after thanksgiving, no more christmas week off with your kids, and so on and so on! I broke my azz to be where I am today. It took me more than half a lifetime to to be where I am today. I would be upset to get pushed back to a guy that passed a test that I helped him pass. Could anyone be a machinest in one test! Think about it! Don't expect to get taught anymore than they taught you, your on your own now. Bagels and coffee in the morning will only go so far! I don't mean to kick your dlck in the dirt, but just breaking it down to you in the real world.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:It's like starting a new job with another company, keep your head down, stay busy,stay out of trouble, the rest ,You cannot help the way things are.
Reply:So, the guy is one of the best weldors in the shop, and he is butt-hurt because you put down a test coupon that surpassed his?He's bummed because many, many people who are 'pretty good' believe they are 'spectacular' and they get crushed when they are shown to be just 'good'. I'd let him float for a while, see where he goes with it. If'n he was holding back and not producing his best work (A serious problem in plenty of shops from time to time) then maybe he needs to re-evaluate what he is doing with himself.Just keep doing your very best; he might bring his A game and then he will feel better as an equal. Do NOT bring your B game just to make him feel better..........And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:He's an employee just like you, pay him no heed, keep your head down & mouth shut & handle your assignments & keep the guy that signs the paychecks happy.REAL TRUCKS DON'T HAVE SPARK PLUGS
Reply:Originally Posted by Old SkoolHe's an employee just like you, pay him no heed, keep your head down & mouth shut & handle your assignments & keep the guy that signs the paychecks happy.
Reply:Hello ct from shawnee, apparently machinists and welders share the same union representation in your shop situation. Otherwise, you would not have been considered "senior" to the other fellas in the weld shop. When that is the case you cannot help but cause hard-feelings amongst a lot of folks, whether you mean to or not. Most of the other replies that you have received have stated this very clearly and have also asked you to consider how you would respond if the tables were turned. If you were in a workplace that had union representation for the various crafts you might see machinist representation being provided by an organization such as the United Aerospace Workers Union or some other similar union. The welders in the other part of your company's shop might be represented by the Ironworkers or Boilermakers union or something like that. If this were the case and you bid into the weld shop you would likely go through an interview process and a determination of your apprenticeship status would be made, you would be assigned a ranking for you apprenticeship and then you would go to work and "earn" your journeyman placement. You would have no seniority and would likely take a drop in pay with the opportunity to prove/improve yourself and work yourself back up to a journeyman payscale.When the folks in the weld shop are acting disgruntled it is due to this sort of process being circumvented in their eyes. They feel as if they have been cheated of "due process" so to speak and when they are required to train you at the same time that you are possibly making equal  to or more money than them and enjoying benefits that they might have otherwise qualified for, some of them might just be a bit besides themselves. With the type of system that is apparently in place at your particular shop there will be no easy transition or "fairness" for all of the parties involved. You will just have to understand that and do your best not to inflame some of your new co-workers as you strive to make a new career for yourself. Good luck to you and best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:I know the shop your talking about, to be quite honest i know two " welders" well for lack of a better word i guess i can classify them as welders, they are the biggest ****ing morons i have ever encountered.I forgot how to change this.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeYou bet your hiney hole it's an ego thing! Suppose they did that to you since you made more money as a machinest, and a welder did the money move. Then all of a sudden no more summer vacation, no more the day off after thanksgiving, no more christmas week off with your kids, and so on and so on! I broke my azz to be where I am today. It took me more than half a lifetime to to be where I am today. I would be upset to get pushed back to a guy that passed a test that I helped him pass. Could anyone be a machinest in one test! Think about it! Don't expect to get taught anymore than they taught you, your on your own now. Bagels and coffee in the morning will only go so far! I don't mean to kick your dlck in the dirt, but just breaking it down to you in the real world.
Reply:[QUOTE=Eric C;1793451]I dont want to hijack, but what does all this mean? Ive never worked union so I dont understand quite how the seniority thing works. Does the guy whos been around the longest get the top dog spot even if someone else is better at the task?[/QUOTY  seniority means different things in different union contracts ours means senior guy gets shift preference, if 2 guys put in for vacation on the same day the senior guy gets it if the 2 cannot be sparred thats it as far as how the others are affected and also bidding rights seniority is really the only fair way to do it, it eliminates favoritism. as for being better at the task that has nothing to do with it  in the eyes of our contract .