welding two pieces of rail together

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someone brought me this unusual side job today, and I wanted to see what some of guys out there thought about my ideas on handling it.a fellow out there wants two sets of   60# crane rail welded together. Welding one 30' piece to another 20' piece for a customer's overhead gantry crane rail.the spec's are here http://www.jjrailsales.com/images/stories/rail/60.jpgeverythign will be done inside with a miller 280 stick machine.my thought on the project was to create a 37 degree or close bevel with a decent landing on the face of the rail at the head, base, and web of the rail and do the same with the other one.  I figured I'll grind down the bevels with the Metabo.  Then line 'em up and give 'em a small opening (1/8") for a root to be run with the 6010 rod. Then just fill in the rest with the 7018 rod unitl just above flush with the base and then grind all excess metal flush with base after filling it in.They want two rails done so I could work on one while i let the other cool and vice versa( as to lessen the heat distortion).  i' am guessing somewhere between six and eight  hours to fully complete the two.Any body see any problems with this?all I want in my life are....... white castle cheese burgers
Reply:Before you strike an arc you might want to find out what the material specification is on the rail. I remeber for one particular set of crane welds the manufacture secified E312-16 as the only acceptableelectrode. Your bevel plans looks good, I would find out what type of filler/electrode the rail/crane maufacturer recommends. Not complying could lead you to financial ruin in case of a failure.
Reply:Hello 4421frank, I believe you may be better served by using E8018 or possibly E9018 for your filler and skipping the E6010 all together, Weld the root with the EXX18 and back-grind the other side to sound metal and then proceed with the welding. Also, preheat the joint prior to starting the welding and cover the welded joint after welding has been completed to allow for a slow cool. Rails are generally of various alloys and could possibly crack after being in service over time, the E7018 could very well work as it is likely softer than the rail, but including the E6010 in the root area could allow a spot for a crack to propogate from, E8018 or 9018 might be a better tensile match to the rail. Running without preheat or allowing the weld joint to cool too quickly after welding has been completed might allow the pieces to harden up a bit too much in the HAZ zone and crack a short time later after being put into service. A bit for your consideration. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldHello 4421frank, I believe you may be better served by using E8018 or possibly E9018 for your filler and skipping the E6010 all together, Weld the root with the EXX18 and back-grind the other side to sound metal and then proceed with the welding. Also, preheat the joint prior to starting the welding and cover the welded joint after welding has been completed to allow for a slow cool. Rails are generally of various alloys and could possibly crack after being in service over time, the E7018 could very well work as it is likely softer than the rail, but including the E6010 in the root area could allow a spot for a crack to propogate from, E8018 or 9018 might be a better tensile match to the rail. Running without preheat or allowing the weld joint to cool too quickly after welding has been completed might allow the pieces to harden up a bit too much in the HAZ zone and crack a short time later after being put into service. A bit for your consideration. Best regards, Allan
Reply:4421frank, I have worked with someone who has inspected heavy rail weldments. The weld preps you spoke of could work but in heavy rail the joint is a square joint and it is welded solid with electro slag welding process. I do agree you will need preheat due to the material thickness and leave the "60" electrode out and possible use the "80 up to even 110" electrodes. If you could get the specific material specification out to me I could possible get more specifics. I don't want to read about a rail weld cracking under load.Weldor/ Certified Inspector
Reply:Originally Posted by weldingliferBefore you strike an arc you might want to find out what the material specification is on the rail.Not complying could lead you to financial ruin in case of a failure.
Reply:A buddy of mine welds on crane members for a living. I know he preheats everything and it has to cool slowly. The minimum wire/rod in his shop is 80XX and he's got 90xx, 110xx, and even higher grades for some work. I seriously doubt this is "mild steel" unless I'm envisioning something different. I'd definately want to know exactly what the steel is before trying this..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:The co-worker who inspected the joint witnessed the ultrasonic test on the joint to assure there is no slag entrapment in the weld cause this will crack out the weld. Think about this and not too lightly.Weldor/ Certified Inspector
Reply:Just for the record:"for Overhead and Gantry Cranes that would be found in OSHA GISO* Sec. 4885 (c) (1)  (B), referencing ANSI B30-2 1996.  The section in ANSI concerning weld fabrication is found in Sec. 2-1.4 Crane Construction, 2-1.4.1 Welded Construction; “All welding procedures and welding Operator qualifications to be used…shall be in accordance with ANSI / AWS D1.1, except as modified by ANSI / AWS 14.1”…Also the design parameters should conform as specified in the AISC Manual for Steel Construction, and CMAA Specification #70 (Crane Manufacturers Association of America), ANSI B30 2-1.4.2, again incorporated by reference."I don't touch  Crane fabrication unless I've got some D1.1 paperwork to work to.
Reply:I’ve seen rail welded a few times using thermit, never stick. If you can run a 100 ton + car and engine over it at 100 mph it has to be good. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR6K90cR8Lg[/ame][ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K07cH7Eo9uI&feature=related[/ame][ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmvw80URT0A&NR=1[/ame]
Reply:Transit,They guys at my work use the thermit process but if they are adding swith geat or H sections the will use a 309L-16 rod with a full bevel.Ive got pics of it somewhere.Will go hunting if need to see.To the OP, as mentioned earlier, this job will take much more consideration and possibly a Pro.
Reply:While I wouldn't hesitate to tackle this by welding with the proper research and preparation, maybe a call to J & J rails would help.  Since they are the source of the rails, they can surely tell you what your 60# rails are made of.  They may also have pre-qualified welding procedures, or tell you which AWS ones would be appropriate.  Then you can test and do the job with confidence.While looking at J & J Rails' website, I noted that they do custom machining on rails, including mitre and bevel cuts.  More importantly, they also make bolt together splices.  I'm all about welding, but seems like a bolt together splice would be faster, easier, less prone to defects."When the only tool you've got is a hammer, all your problems start to look like nails..."Or maybe in this instance, because of stuff we don't know about, welding is the only way to go...Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:If you decide that welding is the right method for making these splices, think about how you're going to prevent distortion.  A plate fixture to lock the rails in place and keep them level and true may be important.  A rail that isn't perfectly flat is a serious problem.  2 rails that aren't level and parallel is a recipe for chronic problems with a bridge crane.A good hypothetical conversation with your commercial liability insurance agent might be prudent also, if this is a new area of work for you.  Make sure your coverage is appropriate for the job.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:I am confused why the joint is welded.  The rail does not support the weight directly only transferring it to the beam below.  I only worked for a crane outfit for six months but we never welded rails together.  They were butted up.  If the joint developed a dip from wear the ends were simply built up.  Other crane rails I have seen in shops I worked in were butted.
Reply:I asked myself the same question lotechman.  But train rails are welded together so it's conceivably possible.  AWS D15.1 and 15.2 cover this.  There's also AWS 14.1, which covers welding on industrial cranes; although perhaps not their rails.Because I'm a naturally curious kind of guy, I also found another company that sells rail for cranes.  A company named L B Foster sells crane rails, accessories, including welding kits and splice kits.  This suggests to me that there's some need for welding crane rails together somewhere.  http://www.lbfoster.com/Rail/cranerail.htmlThey sell accessories for flash butt welding and thermite welding.  This leads me to wonder if  any of the normal arc welding processes are suitable for this type of work.4421Frank, hope you fill us in on what you discover and decide to do.-Dave Originally Posted by lotechmanI am confused why the joint is welded.  The rail does not support the weight directly only transferring it to the beam below.  I only worked for a crane outfit for six months but we never welded rails together.  They were butted up.  If the joint developed a dip from wear the ends were simply built up.  Other crane rails I have seen in shops I worked in were butted.
Reply:when the owner brought this job up I immediatley asked him for a weld procedure from the manufacture as per  our usual way of operation  in the pressure vessel repair business.  They told me they would get that info back to me.  I was puzzled as well.  Asking, "why they were welding this here in a shop"?  They told me that usually this is done in the field, but for this one instance they need it welded in their shop.  I was on the thought of just  actually bolting this guy together but that's not what they wanted.    I am really trying to cover all the bases with both the owner and the liason ,whom contacted me about the job.  Asking for welding procedures and manufacturers recommendations.  They're pretty well set on having some fellow just fill this thing up with filler/ electrode.  The last corespondence the liason told me they're getting the crane's manufacturer recommendations for filler metal and weld procedure.  After they can shoot that to me, things should become a little more clearer. I 'll take a look at hose doc's and then be able to see about doign this or not.in the mean time that leaves me with plenty of time for hot dogs and root beer all I want in my life are....... white castle cheese burgers
Reply:Good deal frank,sounds like you've got your bases covered, and that's a refreshing, pleasant surprise.  Good luck, and if you can, take amoment and post the welding procedure.  I'd be curious to know what's recommended.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:Frank, after the rails are welded in the shop, how will they be transported and lifted into place?Welding the rails onsite, in place is lots easer, no bending stress.
Reply:just to add my 2 cents-I've done a little bit of hardfacing train rail and the weld always has to be softer than the train wheels- the track should wear before the wheels/rollers. so maybe find out how hard the rollers/wheels are that run on the rail, and try not ot exceed the hardness with the weld, otherwise the life of the rollers may be reduced significantly.i would also suggest a slight postheat of the area immediately next to the HAZ rather than just using blankets, and having the correct temperature chalk to measure your pre-heat
Reply:and also, I'm sure you will do this anyway but its worth a mention- stagger the joints if you can so you don't have 2 seams opposite each other when the rails are installed