oppinions on MIG welding alum. vs. TIG welding it.

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So for my own personal needs, i need to have some aluminum pipes fittings and flanges welded. ( for automotive needs) so origionally i researched getting a TIG setup to do this but found out its WAY more money than i want to get into. So apparently i read you can MIG weld aluminum. Any suggestions or ideas on the difference bewteen the 2... and the difficulty and cost between them?
Reply:Tim,You need to do a lot more research before you buy that HF POS and think you're going to be doing the aluminum welding you're talking about with it.Mig welding aluminum, especially the parts you're talking about, is neither cheap or easy.  With the wrong setup, you'll just get frustrated and ticked.I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but do the homework before you plunk down any money on a welder that won't do the job you need done.If you go to the Miller site (millerwelds.com) and click on the resources tab, you'll see that they offer a "student pack".  Will cost you $25 (including postage).  Contains a Tig Handbook, GMAW Handbook, Pulsed Mig Handbook, welding calculators, and a whole lot of other great information.  Read this material before you buy ANY welder.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:sorry for my lack of knowledge here, but why dont you think what im looking at will work? like is this welder just physically not capable of doing the job? or is it just not ideal for it? I cant afford or justify over a thousand dollars on a MIG welder that ill only be using as a hobby. I dont mind having less than good looking welds and dealing with the hassle of that type of stuff if its gonna save me so much money.
Reply:i'd get a tig machine.  welding alu with a mig isn't all that much cheaper.an used home depot/lowes 220v mig welder in the used market goes for $400+an used spool gun of some sort is gonna cost just as much as the welder.  Right there, you're out $800 or morea tig welder that can do alu, used one, will be $800 plus for an older model.  I think you can get better control with a tig as far as welding alu.  I've never even seen alu mig welded in person, but have heard that it is more difficult then migging regular steel.  meanwhile, i made a pretty nice bead when the first time i tigged alu.
Reply:spool gun? what exactly is that and whats it used for?
Reply:Hello Tim, basically the other folks are letting you know that for what you are trying to do it is likely that an older used conventioal transformer/rectifier type Tig machine will serve your needs better, especially when you are talking aluminum welding of the sort that you have described. Using a Mig to weld aluminum is generally either done with a spool gun or a push/pull system, either one of these includes a considerable additional cost in equipment. The smaller capacity mig set-ups are pretty marginal in their aluminum welding capabilities, aluminum requires some umpf to put it bluntly. Conventional migs use guns equipped with liners and rollers that push the wire through the guns/liners, aluminum wire is pretty soft and doesn't push that well. In most cases this causes feed issues and bead performance issues in turn. A spool gun is designed to use smaller 1lb. rolls and has a very short distance to travel from the drive rolls to the contact tip, hence feed issues are minimized, it is usually plugged into the power source and has a seperate lead leading to the gun assembly. Push/pull systems are similar, however they have two sets of feed rolls and drive motors, one set of feeder/drive rolls pulls wire off of the spool and "pushes" it through the liner to feed the second feeder/drive roll system that is located immediately behind the contact tip at the point of welding, this combination helps to provide smooth feeding while using a much larger spool of wire and also allowing the welding to take place at a considerable distance from the "feeder". For lighter and smaller types of "finesse" welding on aluminum parts the tig will serve you much better in most cases. A bit more for your consideration. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Originally Posted by Tim1137spool gun? what exactly is that and whats it used for?
Reply:A mig welder will not weld the thickness you will be using on your pipes and all you are going to end up with is swiss cheese.  I don't see why you are not willing to spend money on buying a good tig welder, even if its for a hobby but your willing to spend the big money to make a car go fast.
Reply:looks like i can get a brand new spool gun for around 250.... are spool guns specific to welders or will any spool gun work for the welder i want to buy?
Reply:the first thing you should buy is definitely the packet that  SundownIII told you about. it will be an immense help. then keep an eye out on craigslist for a good used machine. i picked up my regency 200 for $350. it is older, but came with  a spool gun. the first project i did was welding 75 feet of 1/4 inch aluminum plate outside corner welds. also realize that you will want to get a stainless steel wire wheel to clean the aluminum immediately before welding. cleanliness is the key to welding it. you will also have to use 100% argon for your shielding gas. do not consider anything else. also, you can weld aluminum just fine with dc power, just make sure that you electrode is positive, and your clamp is negative.Dynasty 200DXPassport plus w/ spoolmate 100victor 315c oxy/(act and prop)Miller digital elitemilwaukee power tools
Reply:Originally Posted by Jay OA mig welder will not weld the thickness you will be using on your pipes and all you are going to end up with is swiss cheese.  I don't see why you are not willing to spend money on buying a good tig welder, even if its for a hobby but your willing to spend the big money to make a car go fast.
Reply:Tim     What thickness of material are you looking to weld.  I'm betting you'll need to weld some stuff as thin as 1/16" and if thats the case mig is not going to work for you.  If you are going to find a mig that can do that, it going to cost you more than the tig you're trying not to buy.
Reply:ok so still doing research here... came across this: Miller Diversion 165. this seems to be pretty complete with everything i need to tig weld ( minus gas bottle of course)whats everyones thoughts on buying this instead? at $1,400 it seems like a good deal for something thats brand new.edit* also found the hobart EZ Tig 165... seems to be identical except it comes with a foot pedal and is a couple hundred cheaper!Last edited by Tim1137; 02-17-2010 at 04:14 PM.
Reply:i would make sure and get something that is compatible with a spool gun so down the road you can mig with the same machine.Dynasty 200DXPassport plus w/ spoolmate 100victor 315c oxy/(act and prop)Miller digital elitemilwaukee power tools
Reply:Tim, the Diversion is fairly underpowered for tig alum. It can do it, but you will very quickly out grow that machine. Also you give up a lot of options that you would get with say a Syncrowave 200, the next level up, and you'd only spend maybe $600 more. A used Syncro 180 or 200 would sell for about what that Diversion would and you'd have more machine to work with. My Syncro 200 maxes out on 1/4" alum. As far a mig alum, you definitely will want a spoolgun, and the spoolguns are designed around specific machines. The spoolgun for my Miller MM185 can't be used with the MM211, and neither of those spoolguns can be used with a MM252. Mig alum is usually for thicker materials 1/8"+ and usually you want a mig machine with a minimum of 200 amps or more. You also have to move FAST doing alum mig, so small round pipe is a real PITA to do.If you have no experience with welding, I'd strongly suggest you take a class. Any sort of alum welding is more difficult than steel. In the class you will hopefully have the opportunity to try out various processes and get to use machines that are much better than what's currently in your price range. You will get a good understanding of the basics that are involved. Don't expect to walk into a local tech school, take one class and walk out being able to weld alum tube. It's not that simple. First you will need to get the same process down in steel, before you move on to alum. Steel is easier to see just whats going on, so you can make changes. Once you have the basics down well with steel, you can move on to alum..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:analog (no digital display) syncrowave 180, syncrowave 200... are pretty much the main staple for serious no0bie that want descent aluminum capability.i got a sync 180sd and its been an excellent welder. granted, i've only had it for a year, but the previous owner used it to make bicycles (thin gauge steel/alu/whatever) only sold it because he needed money.  so, if he (the pro) didnt out grow it, what do you think the chances are that i will out grow it?  C'mon guys, there's gotta be one of you from somerset MA!! send this guy a PM, invite him to your shop and give him a quick 20 minute lesson to get his feet wet.
Reply:Originally Posted by Tim1137sorry for my lack of knowledge here, but why dont you think what im looking at will work? like is this welder just physically not capable of doing the job? or is it just not ideal for it? I cant afford or justify over a thousand dollars on a MIG welder that ill only be using as a hobby. I dont mind having less than good looking welds and dealing with the hassle of that type of stuff if its gonna save me so much money.
Reply:checked and cant find any syncrowaves for sale used  within a few hundred mile radius via craigslist... except some huge old syncrowave 300. i did find this though...http://hartford.craigslist.org/tls/1572504454.htmlhobart 200? ac/dc current means i can do aluminum... more powerful than the 165... good price... and pedal included ;-)or this:http://newlondon.craigslist.org/tls/1589939192.htmlsyncrowave 300! looks like alot more than ill need but... the price is right... how big is one of these units?Last edited by Tim1137; 02-18-2010 at 08:26 AM.
Reply:Looks like that one comes with a torch cooler too - VERY NICE.These are pretty large and very heavy, but are absolutely up to the job.  They're approximately the size of a college dorm freezer but about 1 foot deeper.The only thing better than these would be an inverter based one, but they're about twice the $$$.Hobart Stickmate LX AC/DC, Millermatic 252 & 30A spoolgun, Thermal Arc 185 TIG, Miller BWESmith Oxy-AcBridgeport 2J , South Bend 42" 9AHusky 7.5 HP 22.3 CFM 80 gal compressor
Reply:......UA Local 598
Reply:The only problem I see with the Synch 300 is Input Power, even that Olde Hobart may require some juice to run it.Aloominum is a  sneaky material: fools ya since it melts at a lower temp but requires more heat/Power to weld than Steel- WTF?? So to weld the same thickness steel you can get away with a small machine.Welding Aloominum is like trying to weld a Frozen stick of butterEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1 weld a Frozen stick of butter
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Welding Aloominum is like trying to weld a Frozen stick of butter
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1The only problem I see with the Synch 300 is Input Power, even that Olde Hobart may require some juice to run it.Aloominum is a  sneaky material: fools ya since it melts at a lower temp but requires more heat/Power to weld than Steel- WTF?? So to weld the same thickness steel you can get away with a small machine.Welding Aloominum is like trying to weld a Frozen stick of butter
Reply:so what do you guys think of that hobart 200? i like the price, its small enough to transport in my friends small s10 pickup... its only a couple hours away, and looks like ill have room to store it in my garage ( unlike that syncrowave 300!!) anyone opposed to me buying that hobart 200? any reasons why i shouldnt?or should i get that miller syncrowave?Last edited by Tim1137; 02-18-2010 at 04:53 PM.Tim,    You seem like your in such a hurry to get started in what you want do.  First it is going to take you a couple of months to learn how to tig so put that idea in your head, because there is a learning curve  for everyone and your not going to master this in one in a weekend.  Second go to a welding supply and see these machine in person, talk to a salesperson and get catalogs from various manufactures.  Study the machines that interest you, learn about their features and what accessories they come with.Now be patient take your time when looking for a machine,new or used, especially used and hopefully having studied the new machines you can then look at the older used machines and see if they offer the features that would suit your needs.  A machine that would suit your needs might be a Syncrowave 250.  Some of these came with built in water coolers, and maybe also can include a pulser.  You also have the be aware of how much power these machines can draw so that might be an issue also.  Be patient and willing to learn because make the wrong choice while in a hurry will cost you more in the long run.
Reply:as far as how much power the machines draw... are we talking more than a typical home plug can take? i just have a regular power outlet in my garage... whatever i buy will have to be powered off that...
Reply:Originally Posted by Tim1137as far as how much power the machines draw... are we talking more than a typical home plug can take? i just have a regular power outlet in my garage... whatever i buy will have to be powered off that...
Reply:Originally Posted by Tim1137as far as how much power the machines draw... are we talking more than a typical home plug can take? i just have a regular power outlet in my garage... whatever i buy will have to be powered off that...
Reply:Everybody thinks aluminum is cool, and everybody wants to do it.  The reality is that it's one of those things in life that is "pay to play".  It's not easy, and it certainly ain't cheap.  You have to make up your mind on what you want.  You can do aluminum or you can get a cheap welder.  You cannot do both.If you have very limited projects, find somebody else to weld them after you do the fit up.  Or maybe even let you use their welder with guidance.  IF you insist on having your own welder then you are just going to have to deal with the cost.  That's life.My name's not Jim....
Reply:well it sounds like its going to be a better route for me to take, if i forget about aluminum welding and just have my aluminum welding done at a shop.stainless welding seems alot more painless. Just buy a tig welder and go for it! I think im gonna stay away from aluminum at this point.only doing stainless and buying something like the miller diversion or hobart ez tig 165 might better suite my situation as far as power supply anyways since they draw less power. Im fairly sure theres a way to convert any non-220 outlets to a 220 outlet So in any case looks like ill be doing that as well.
Reply:Originally Posted by Tim1137well it sounds like its going to be a better route for me to take, if i forget about aluminum welding and just have my aluminum welding done at a shop.stainless welding seems alot more painless. Just buy a tig welder and go for it! I think im gonna stay away from aluminum at this point.only doing stainless and buying something like the miller diversion or hobart ez tig 165 might better suite my situation as far as power supply anyways since they draw less power. Im fairly sure theres a way to convert any non-220 outlets to a 220 outlet So in any case looks like ill be doing that as well.
Reply:i meant alot more painless in comparison to aluminum lol...* just finished reading that whole thread. lots of useful information there thanks for that! im not afraid to dive in and start the learning process i know all that info covered in that thread ill learn over a period of time. I want to tackle the issue of what machine/setup i want before i start tackling getting good at welding.Last edited by Tim1137; 02-19-2010 at 04:04 PM.
Reply:just finished reading that whole thread. lots of useful information there thanks for that! im not afraid to dive in and start the learning process i know all that info covered in that thread ill learn over a period of time     If you to tackle learning the information first it will make your life alot easier.  Put the importance of knowledge first before developing your skills or else you'll be heading in the wrong direction blindly.
Reply:If you are going to skip alum, you might want to think about the Miller Maxstar 150 STH. The price is probably close to the Diversion, and you gat a lot more options. It's an inverter and will do thin stainless on 110v and up to 3/16" IIRC on 220v. It will also run stick to do thicker steel, something the Diversion won't do at all. The only thing you really are giving up is AC tig, and because the output on the Diversion / Ez tig is so low in AC it's not really all that big a loss.http://www.millerwelds.com/products/...xstar_150_sth/If the Maxstar STH is a bit too pricy, you can get by with the Maxstar 150 STL. You give up a few of the advanced features with this to save a few bucks. You want to avoid the Maxstar 150 S model however, because it's really a stick only machine..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:That maxstar does look good a good choice, im not sure i follow how its better than the diversion though... I would be doing the STL model, and it doesnt look like i get much in return for losing AC welding alltogether.
Reply:lol.. i'd just buy the freakin part i needed... lol..if you're not livin on the edge, you're takin up too much room..
Reply:Originally Posted by ibanezed4yrslol.. i'd just buy the freakin part i needed... lol..
Reply:Originally Posted by Tim1137local fab shop quoted me 800 dollars for the work i want done.... for another 800 i can get a welder and do it myself...
Reply:Originally Posted by SupeMock up the part yourself, scribe lines for alignment, take it to them for finish welding.
Reply:Originally Posted by Tim1137That maxstar does look good a good choice, im not sure i follow how its better than the diversion though... I would be doing the STL model, and it doesnt look like i get much in return for losing AC welding alltogether.
Reply:thanks for clearing that up. Didnt know the maxstar would run on a 110v outlet....
Reply:The new Diversion 180 runs on 110v and 220v and has the same quick change MVP dual voltage plug that the Maxstar 150, Passport and Millermatic 211 have.  The Diversion doesn't have stick welding ability though, which the Maxstar does have.  If you get the Maxstar 150STH, you get high freq start.   The Maxstar 200SD would be my choice for a dc-only inverter tig/stick machine.  The 200SD has higher outputs than the 150STH and still runs on both 110v and 220v power and has high freq start, for not much more money than the 150STH.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:You'd think with new options and all Miller would update the web site to show them off...  I still don't see the new Diversion there..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:yah i want to see this new diversion 180... it might be just what i need....
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelsonAluminum has 3 TIMES the heat capacity that steel does.IOW--it take 3 TIMES the energy to heat a give mass of aluminum to the same temperatureas an identical mass of steel.In addition--aluminum conducts (or spreads) heat faster than steel does.That's 'why' it takes significantly more power to weld aluminum vs. steel.
Reply:so i did a little more research and it appears i should have a 220v outlet for my washer and dryer in my basement. so i foudn the DIY 220v extension cord thread on this forum. If i just do that, i wont have to worry about my power supply, just cant weld and dry at the same time haha!
Reply:What you NEED, is to do a lot more research on the different welding processes.Based on the questions asked and your responses to answers given, you don't take advice readily.  If you think you're going to buy a tig machine, plug it into your dryer outlet, and start welding aluminum flanges, you're smoking some good stuff.People say that tig is the most difficult of the welding processes to master.  Aluminum is one of the most difficult of materials to weld.  Your odds are stacked against you.You're NOT going to learn to tig weld by asking questions on an internet board.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIWhat you NEED, is to do a lot more research on the different welding processes.Based on the questions asked and your responses to answers given, you don't take advice readily.  If you think you're going to buy a tig machine, plug it into your dryer outlet, and start welding aluminum flanges, you're smoking some good stuff.People say that tig is the most difficult of the welding processes to master.  Aluminum is one of the most difficult of materials to weld.  Your odds are stacked against you.You're NOT going to learn to tig weld by asking questions on an internet board.
Reply:This too you should know-  If aluminum is truly your thing, although MIG welding steel is not as skill-intensive as TIG welding it, when it comes to aluminum MIG is much more limited.Aluminum MIG is a ferociously fast operation and is virtually worthless unless the parts are at least 1/8" thick.  Trying to MIG thinner stuff is like sandblasting a soup cracker.  As soon as you pull the trigger, you melt the part you're working with.I am a home hobbyist user and have both.  I have only used my aluminum spoolgun once but have used my TIG for aluminum many times.  I'm not real good with it by any means, but for aluminum the TIG is more the way to go, but a cheap machine would be worthless.  A cheap TIG machine would be somewhat functional for steel, I've seen the chinese ones fixed up to where they were functional enough for a hobbyist user on light steel but they do not have the control necessary to be at all useful for Aluminum- and few of them even have the most basic A/C controls, which are essential for welding aluminum.  It's just very hard stuff to work with.  Riding the edge between just heating a solid part and the whole thing melting apart is such a fine line that a lesser machine isn't usable.Hobart Stickmate LX AC/DC, Millermatic 252 & 30A spoolgun, Thermal Arc 185 TIG, Miller BWESmith Oxy-AcBridgeport 2J , South Bend 42" 9AHusky 7.5 HP 22.3 CFM 80 gal compressor