Cascade fillng argon

admin

I would like to fill a small bottle or argon from a larger one, a 20 cu. ft. from a 330 cu. ft.I used to cascade fill breathing O2 cylinders in airplanes all the time, we used a rack of about 8 bottles hooked to a manifold, and would alternate bottels switching from the lowest to highest till the small onboard tank was full.  The big caution was that O2 doesnt do well with dirty tools and gloves (fire hazard) and if you rapidly fill the onboard bottle it will heat up and show full, but when cooled it will show a much lower pressure.I did hear that CO2 under high pressure is filled by weight, not psi.  Is there any such risk with argon?What hidden hazards am I missing?
Reply:Argon will fill much like O2 in cascade. It will heat faster as it's a denser gas. We cascade to fill argon suit gas all the time in dive operations. I use the same rig to fill my small argon bottle for my mig that I do for filling suit bottles from a big 282cf cylinder, just with a different valve adapter. I can usually get by with only 1 Argon bottle, since usually I don't absolutely have to fill my 60 cf tank 100% to do a small job. After I go below 1200psi on the big cyl., I need to either swap bottles or add a 2nd to my group.  If you have any issues let me know and I can walk you thru it.O2's the hard ogas to work with, with issues of cleanliness and being sure to keep fill rates down to prevent adiabatic compression and fires. The only hazzard I see is if you want to use that same system you curently use for O2. I keep my O2 rig completely seperate from all other gases, Argon, helium, breathing air etc, even though they should all be "clean". Having been at ground zero when something went wrong with an O2 booster, it's not an experience I'd like to repeat.Last edited by DSW; 02-21-2010 at 10:19 AM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:X2 what DSW said. CO2 bottles that are filled by weight are liquid CO2. They can also be cascade filled to a point but it still works better with a booster pump.Tough as nails and damn near as smart
Reply:Be careful, My 320 cf argon tank comes with 2600 PSI.  The smaller tanks only hold 2200.  I don't fill my small tank unless the 320 is Below 2200 psi.I was told this by my gas supplier.I have a 20 cf I use for small tig jobs in kitchens.  Its handy. I have never had it filled at the supplier.  If needed, I can put c/25 in it for the portable mig.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by UpnorthI would like to fill a small bottle or argon from a larger one, a 20 cu. ft. from a 330 cu. ft.I used to cascade fill breathing O2 cylinders in airplanes all the time, we used a rack of about 8 bottles hooked to a manifold, and would alternate bottels switching from the lowest to highest till the small onboard tank was full.  The big caution was that O2 doesnt do well with dirty tools and gloves (fire hazard) and if you rapidly fill the onboard bottle it will heat up and show full, but when cooled it will show a much lower pressure.I did hear that CO2 under high pressure is filled by weight, not psi.  Is there any such risk with argon?What hidden hazards am I missing?
Reply:Excellent advice!!Any tips on purging a new tank?Any recomended suppliers that carry transfill setups?David R, any pics of your setup?In my past experince there was little concern of contamination, breathing oxygen, but I totally understand that a welding shop would be pretty pissed if you returned a cylinder contaminated with air.  I think I'll cross off my supplier as a place to ask about buying a setup.And while I never thought that my gas line to my tig would be a good hose to trans fill I suppose it should be pointed out that hoses used downstream of the regulator ARE NOT desinged to be used @2200 psi.
Reply:I told my supplier at Airgas what I wanted and he built the hoses on a T fitting with the CGA ends for me. I didn't have to do anything except whip out my Visa Debit card.And, DSW, I have used the booster for o2 filling scuba tanks. that is one slick device. I had never seen one before. Tell us all what happened. I would like to know what I luckily missed out on!Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v  Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain
Reply:Originally Posted by UpnorthExcellent advice!!Any tips on purging a new tank?.
Reply:So... no suppliers of trans fill setups?Dave, where did you get yours?
Reply:Upnorth PM sent on the fill whip.Joker 11 here's the thread I did on the booster incident.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...hlight=boosterIt's not the first one I know of that went boom. I know of several other ones that blew up since then.Last edited by DSW; 02-22-2010 at 03:58 PM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I bought my connector at the gas supply store a LONG time ago.  I'll take a picture tomorrow when I am at work.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by UpnorthSo... no suppliers of trans fill setups?Dave, where did you get yours?
Reply:Dave, your's is very similar to mine, but I used handtight nuts and nipples instead of the wrench fittings, and I have a little better bleeder assembly, but it probably works the same.I PM'd similar info to Upnorth. To those that don't know better, or are just plain cheap @$$'d F**K's. DON'T DO THIS WITH O2! Theres way more that needs to be done than slapping parts together! This sort of thing can and has KILLED people. This is not a maybe, sort of, vauge kind of thing, but a very real danger, if you don't get it 100% right every time you fill..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Addendum to my previous posts--Line contact fittings, the big ones that thread into bottles,the little ones that are on the end of low pressure gashoses----all seal by line contact on that spherical radius.If that radius gets dinged, when it's dropped, it can leak.If a dinged fitting gets threaded into the female receivingend, that ding can then trash the mating component.So some care in handing those fitting ends to avoid leaks saves you. DSW-I fully concur with you on not using this for O2.Yet, none of the above will deter the genius population from doing so!high pressure O2 + any trace of hydrocarbon (which can be present as gas off inthe hose line, etc.)    =  high explosive that may have an ignition pointof ambient temperatureBlackbird
Reply:THANKSAgain, GREAT info.My interest in this is soley for argon.  However the aircraft at work are rountinley filled with similar setups, and I personaly know of 2 fires that have occured while filling the tanks.  One was a small explosion that caused burns to the pilot who was filling the on board medical tanks, post incident figures it was started by dirty gloves.  The other happend in the hangar and was internal to the filling hose and aircraft tank.  The mechanic SAW the heat rising off the the hose and tank and shut the valve on the supply and left, then called the fire department, it certainly could have been worse.  Turns out that the valve used on the hose had packing that was not compatible with O2 and it started a fire inside the hose, buring the teflon liner(I think), and the linning in the onboard tank.  So yup, O2 is far more dangerous than we think.  In fact the last time was at my supplier they were advertising O2 that was scented to identify leaks, obviously for cutting and welding not breathing.  It had an article about how alot of shop fires were related to high O2 concentrations from leaks.
Reply:sorry for digging up this old post, but I can't figgure out what the silver colored connector is? I'm using this to transfer argon, NOT oxygen. thanks for any insight.
Reply:Originally Posted by AluminumWeldersorry for digging up this old post, but I can't figgure out what the silver colored connector is? I'm using this to transfer argon, NOT oxygen. thanks for any insight.
Reply:Don't mess with homemade hardware concoctions. Got to your LWS and order a proper transfill whip with a gauge and a bleed valve.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Thanks I basically got what you listed a couple of years ago.Most of the part #'s are the same. The hose is a new part#, which does not support combustible fule, but I'm not going to use it for that purpose.   can you recommend a swivel? BSPP Female Swivel × NPT Male AdaptersRotate 360° for tightening in confined spaces.PipeSizeMax. psi@ 72° F Each1/43,500part# 4936K375$10.78Is the only one I could find at Mcmaster, but it has BSPP and NPT designation? I'm not a pipe thread expert so I"m not sure that will work. I guess worse case scenario Is I skip the swivel and it is a little awkward to mount the pipe. Thanks for any advice. Code:5340K262 EachZinc-plated Steel Hydraulic Hose Fitting Coupling, 1/4" Npt Fem X 1/4" Npsm Swivel Female4468K179  1 EachHigh-pressure Braided Chemical Hose Brass Male X Male Fitting, 60"l, 1/4" Id, 3000 Psi79215A664  2 EachRegulator Fitting Male Thread Inlet Nut, Cga #580, 1.143" Length79215A665  2 EachRegulator Fitting Inlet Nipple, 1/4" Npt Male, Cga #580, 3" Length9171K271 EachPrecision Hi-pressure Brass Thrd Pipe Fitting1/4 Pipe Size, Female Tee9171K471 EachPrecision Hi-pressure Brass Thrd Pipe Fitting1/4 Pipe Size, Hex-head Plug4757T621 EachHigh-pressure Brass Threaded Pipe Fitting 1/4 Pipe Size, Hex Coupling
Reply:Aluminumwelder, can I ask why you think you need a transfill whip?Transfill whips have their place, but most people who think they need them have the wrong idea what they are for. If you need to fill small cylinders occasionally for portable use, they are ok. Understand you will go thru a lot of large cylinders of argon to fill a few small ones. The math is more complicated than most people think. You can't simply hook up a full large cylinder to a small one and get the small one full. Cylinders equalize by pressure, not volume. It's not as simple as having a 300 cf  cylinder that's full and hooking up an empty 100 cf cylinder and expecting you will get a 3/4 full fill. You end up with closer to a 65% fill in each after the gas equalizes. The next "fill" is even worse. You'd end up with about 45% in each cylinder if you took what remained in the 300 and tried to fill an empty 100.This only works well when you have a very small cylinder and you have a large bank of several full  large cylinders to cascade out of. You will have use a lot of small cylinders of gas to get a savings after you buy all the fittings.Also remember you need to purge the lines 100% before you try to fill. Otherwise you will introduce air into the mix and can quickly end up with "bad gas" and have to waste the whole fill and have the LWS vac the cylinder to get the air out.Last edited by DSW; 01-23-2013 at 06:01 PM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Maybe it's a stupid idea, but I got some 320 cylinders off craigslist and the LWS won't swap them out. The previous owner said if you set up an account with LWS and rent a cylinder they will let you swap it out.  So basically if I transfill my two 160 empties I can return the rental swap out cylinder faster.  By my calculations transfilling two 160's with one 320 will leave about 44% of the original gas left inside. The lease fee is $100 per year or 50 cents  a day.  Maybe I just gotta look harder for a LWS that will swap them out instead of messing with all this transfill stuff.  I do also have a friend who I could help refill his hobby welding tanks. Different topic, but related:I do have a half a dozen CO2 small 20oz tanks I use for portable pneumatic tools like nail guns, and found this cool gizmo off ebayhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Power-Tank-P...ac5df1&vxp=mtrto refill them. I might get that as well.
Reply:Originally Posted by AluminumWelderMaybe it's a stupid idea, but I got some 320 cylinders off craigslist and the LWS won't swap them out. The previous owner said if you set up an account with LWS and rent a cylinder they will let you swap it out.  So basically if I transfill my two 160 empties I can return the rental swap out cylinder faster.  By my calculations transfilling two 160's with one 320 will leave about 44% of the original gas left inside.
Reply:Your right i guess The main reason is  I'm setting up two welding stations so it will be nice to have when all but one tank is emptyso I don't have to drive an hour to the lws which is inconvienent
Reply:I fill my 20s all the time, works for me, I use dedicated whips from the manifold systems though. Just blow n go, i aint got time to go pay the LWS twice the price for half the gas, Sometimes its alot nicer to just take a small bottle. I never have ran it completely out though.I forgot how to change this.