water well drilling rig

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I am looking at buying some land in the country in a couple years and doing some planning ahead.  I'm going to need a well so I'm looking at my options.  Option 1 is have a well driller do it which is pretty expensive.  From others I have talked to they go down a certain amount of feet no matter when they hit water just to be safe.  Option 2 is to do it myself, I like to do things myself if/when I can but sometimes you have to know your limits and I believe this is right on the edge depending on a few things.  I still have a lot of homework to do but from the county maps I have looked at the water table is 0-20'.  And bedrock is 0-100'.  Soil is clay and sandstone.  I have been reading the DNR book on wells and a homeowner can drill their own, I'm using drilled losely hear, either drill or pound.When I was a kid a few of my dad's friends pounded their own wells to depths around 60' or so if I remember right.  They used a rented machine that was a trailer that had a big weight and pounded away for a couple days and they added more pipe to it as it got deeper.  I think this would be the route I would go over a rotating drill if I end up doing my own well.  I found some good videos on youtube of these kind of pounders and they look pretty simple to make.Was wondering if anyone on here has drilled or pounded their own well and if so anyone make their own drill or pounder?  Have pics of it?  I found some online and on youtube of some simple to very well thought out machines.  Looking forward to seeing what you guys have come up with!
Reply:There are adapters for jackhammers for pushing sandpoints down (looks a lot like what is used for ground rods).  I've been thinking of doing something like that myself.I live on Long Island, and the water table here is 10'-15' with sandy soil.  Pretty easy as things go.Depending on your soil conditions, driving a well down to 60' or so may either be difficult, or impossible.Whatever the water table is, you will have to go considerably deeper.  The level around the well drops as you draw water, so you need to go lower so as not to pump air.My plan, is to buy a stainless sandpoint, and use plain galvanized pipe.  You must use special "drive" couplings on the pipe, and not normal pipe couplings you would get at Home Despot of the likes.Drive couplings fit more loosely, and allow the pipes to contact each other, taking the impact off of the threads.
Reply:Be careful of legal issues. Around here (Minnesota and Wisconsin), it is pretty illegal to drill your own well. Fear of contaminants and the like.But sandpoint wells are common. The chain farm and home improvement stores (Fleet Farm and Menards) sell sand points, drive adapters, jet pumps, and everything else you need.If you do do it yourself, be sure to have your water tested. A $15 mail-in test will show you if your water is safe to drink.And yes, wells are expensive. Spent $5k to put a new pump and pitless adapters into a well on my property. And the girlfriend spent $12k to drill a 220ft well and put a pump in on her property. The well driller, with 30 years of experience estimated her well would be 40ft deep...!-Jim
Reply:Originally Posted by kb0thnBe careful of legal issues. Around here (Minnesota and Wisconsin), it is pretty illegal to drill your own well. Fear of contaminants and the like.But sandpoint wells are common. The chain farm and home improvement stores (Fleet Farm and Menards) sell sand points, drive adapters, jet pumps, and everything else you need.If you do do it yourself, be sure to have your water tested. A $15 mail-in test will show you if your water is safe to drink.And yes, wells are expensive. Spent $5k to put a new pump and pitless adapters into a well on my property. And the girlfriend spent $12k to drill a 220ft well and put a pump in on her property. The well driller, with 30 years of experience estimated her well would be 40ft deep...!-Jim
Reply:Do you know for sure what the water level is? Maybe check with some neighbors to make sure before starting.I have a picture of my great-grandfather and his brothers drilling their own wells around 1920-1930-ish. To bad they are blurry and only about 3" x 3". Good old snaps of the day!I would think that pounding would be pretty hard. I've never seen one done this way, so am not sure what diameter of pipe you would have to put in the ground, but I've pounded a few fence posts (2" - 6" diameter) and they can get pretty hard to push in! You might need a pretty big weight, and of course a bigger weight means a beefier machine to handle the impact.Andrew
Reply:Originally Posted by Andrew_DDo you know for sure what the water level is? Maybe check with some neighbors to make sure before starting.I have a picture of my great-grandfather and his brothers drilling their own wells around 1920-1930-ish. To bad they are blurry and only about 3" x 3". Good old snaps of the day!I would think that pounding would be pretty hard. I've never seen one done this way, so am not sure what diameter of pipe you would have to put in the ground, but I've pounded a few fence posts (2" - 6" diameter) and they can get pretty hard to push in! You might need a pretty big weight, and of course a bigger weight means a beefier machine to handle the impact.Andrew
Reply:My good friend is a well driller, and I have to say with all the equipment needed, it wouldn't pay to do it yourself. No offense, but I think something like that is better left to a professional. I know you said your water table isn't very far down, but you have to keep in mind what is under the surface. My friend does pounders, and I have seen him hit boulders that just kept spinning. He would have to get a rotary in there just to get though that so he could continue. I know the prices may seem expensive, but get a crap well and you will realize real fast how much you depend on good water pressure. Personally, I would go with a pounded well. My friend does all of our wells (we are home builders), and they have all turned out great. We pissed off all the neighbors with one house we built. The whole subdivsion was done with rotarys, and the best well was 3 gallons a minute at 400 feet. Just barely legal here in CT. We built the house, with a pounded well and got 12 gallons a minute at 120 feet. So which one do you think cost less? The pounder may take more time, but it's worth it. Just don't tell my friend Mark. His head is swelled up to much already.kidtigger24  They think I’m crazy, but I know better. It is not I who am crazy. It is I who am MAD!
Reply:Originally Posted by kb0thnBe careful of legal issues. Around here (Minnesota and Wisconsin), it is pretty illegal to drill your own well. Fear of contaminants and the like.. . . And yes, wells are expensive. Spent $5k to put a new pump and pitless adapters into a well on my property. And the girlfriend spent $12k to drill a 220ft well and put a pump in on her property. The well driller, with 30 years of experience estimated her well would be 40ft deep...!
Reply:Yes I am still weighing the options.  I understand that there is a risk of it not working out if I do it myself, but also understand there is around a 10,000 dollar savings if it does work out.  I'm going to have the time to pound some holes but 10K is a good chunk of change if I could save it and use it on something else while building a house. I think the biggest problem would be hitting a rock.  I'm not against hiring someone that will do it right but I also realise there is going to be a number of high dollar things when buying a property and building a house, and I'm going to try and do this without taking out much of a loan.  I have been saving and will continue to save as much as I can.  I am just trying to see if I can get water myself, even if it is just temperory until I have the money to pay for a proper well to be drilled.
Reply:Originally Posted by ponch37300I'm not going to pound it by hand either.  I've seen guys rent a trailer that has a setup on it that pounds the pipe in the ground.
Reply:First-way cool post, never underestimate the natural "genius" of the individual standing next to you at the super market.  Second-when I was a kid (now fifty!) we had a rotary drilled, and I vaguely remember the discussion / debate how rotary's "passed" up water and pounders (never seen one) would come in sooner, as was evidenced by the illustration given by the builder-neat info btw.  Third-As a heavy equipment operator, we are now digging 22 feet deep with an excavator, and it never ceases to amaze me what you find, and how hard that material is to move.  with all that said-pound away!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by ponch37300Yes I am still weighing the options.  I understand that there is a risk of it not working out if I do it myself, but also understand there is around a 10,000 dollar savings if it does work out.  I'm going to have the time to pound some holes but 10K is a good chunk of change if I could save it and use it on something else while building a house. I think the biggest problem would be hitting a rock.  I'm not against hiring someone that will do it right but I also realise there is going to be a number of high dollar things when buying a property and building a house, and I'm going to try and do this without taking out much of a loan.  I have been saving and will continue to save as much as I can.  I am just trying to see if I can get water myself, even if it is just temperory until I have the money to pay for a proper well to be drilled.
Reply:Originally Posted by ponch37300That would be neat to see it done in the old days.
Reply:As for pricing...  we drilled a new well in the mid-late 1990's (Manitoba, Canada). 350 feet deep I think. It's extremely high in salts however...Reverse Osmosis treatment did not work. Tests showed that the water wasn't quite as salty as sea water, but close. Ended up going with a water distiller. Cost for drilling was around $10,000. Iron Filter, Softener and Distiller was another $5,000-6,000.Still better than hauling a couple of loads a week from town!Andrew
Reply:Originally Posted by kidtigger24$10,000? We never paid more than $5000. And even that was a lot. Pounders are cheaper because they don't have to go nearly as far as rotarys. A rotary can blow out 400 feet in 1 day, but give you crap pressure. My friend would probably work for 2 solid weeks, and give you something a lot better then a rotary would. And it wouldn't cost $10,000. Just some food for thought.kidtigger24
Reply:Andrew, those are some pretty neat pictures.  They drilled even in the winter!
Reply:my .02 cents on sandpoints.  There great for nonpotable water.  I know that shallow well have been used for years. The house I  grew up in has a sandpoint to this day. the best water I have ever drank. the plumbing fixters 50+ years old and not a brown stain on them.      70%   of the houses in my  neighborhood have them. I have a sandpoint in my shop. Work great for cleaning and washing your hands and putting out an occasional welding fire.I would go deep well for house or main water supply. Because sooner or later your will and it's never going to get any cheaper. Either by law or dried up well.  In minnesota A home owner can put one in.  Well drillers or plumbers can't touch them.  Sandpoints can easily get contaminated.  If you go over 25' (I think) then you need a jet pump and they are a pain in the ***.     With all the jackasses in the world today, whats safer city water , shallow well or deep well. It's  probably a wash.Pound to fit, paint to match
Reply:This IS turning into an interesting thread.Back to welding . . . I read somewhere about how to make your own sandpoint.  It involved hammering the end of a pipe flat, cutting a V out of it, hammering the two points together and welding the two seams.  What I couldn't figure out was how to cut the slits into the pipe (a cutoff wheel is way to thick), and how to deal with corrosion.
Reply:Our house has (2) dug wells for water.  Both of them are about 12' deep - the previous owner dug the holes with a backhoe and a piece of 24" concrete culvert pipe was put in with the end sticking out of the ground so they look like the old-timey wells once you put bricks around the sides.  I've never heard of a sandpoint, maybe it's the same thing.  The water here is 5'-10' below the surface, as there's a stream about 20' away from the house.One advantage to this style is that when/if your pipe which the previous owner buried too close to the surface freezes up, you can haul water out with a 5-gallon bucket on a rope, just like in the old movies.  Ask me how I know.
Reply:I have and run both rotary, and cable tool drilling rigs (or pounders) a cable tool will be a learning experiance for you, its usually 40s-60s equipment when life was cheaper and they are dangerous and require skill and luck to learn and run without assistance from a pro. a lot of people  bought them and lost drilling tools, fingers, and toes before the law changed in Idaho and you had to be a licensed driller to drill a well with motorized equipment. those rigs are still sitting around on holes that were never finished. I wouldnt recomend one for a novice unless you have a lot of experiance on dangerous equipment. but you should be able to pick up a junker for 3 to 8 thousand. and it would be worth that when you are done. as for rotary systems there is build your own drill rig plans on ebay those are slow but work okay for sand and clay but that sandstone might be an issue unless you have decent weight on your bits. as for sand points we have cobbles out here and those are almost useless. hope this helps a little.Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Reply:No, a sandpoint is a short (3' or so) section of pipe (usually 1 1/4" or 2" steel pipe size), with a point on one end.  You screw sections of pipe onto the other end, and hammer into the ground.
Reply:Thanks for all the advice everyone.  I'm going to get some books from the library and do some more reading on this.  The way I am looking at this right now is that I build a smaller rig and give it a shot.  With the knowing that it could fail due to hitting a rock or tough soil or water quality issues.  If it does I fail I am only out a few undred dollars for the pipe, sandpoint, couplings, etc.  And will have a nice post pounder that I'm sure I will use for some fence or something later on.  Not a real loss if it doesn't work out, but a pretty big gain if it does work out.  One other thing I read is I'm allowed to dig 12' down and then start pounding, not sure if this would be easier to go deeper or not.  I also am aware these rigs aren't something to just hope on and go to town, I have worked with heavy equipement a lot and have a lot of on the job and osha safety training and am in general a smart and safe operator.  I'm sure there will be a huge learning curve but I feel that I can handle this in a safe manner.So as of now I have a couple choices of machines I can build.  It's one of those things were you either go all in and have better odds but greater lose if you lose or go small and hope for the best but if you lose it isn't that big of a deal.One would be a simple rig with a weight and a  motor setup to raise and drop the weight.  This one wouldn't be good for much other than a shallow well in decent soil conditions, no rocks or it will be a bust.  And would use a 2" sandpoint and either a shallow well pump or the jet type in the pipe.The second would be a bigger, more complex cable rig that would do bigger diameter and deeper and go threw some rocks.   It would be more expensive and a greater financial lose if it doesn't work out.  But if does work out I would have a nice well.  There are also other things involved with this like grouting or cementing the casing and what not so it would be more work and more things to go wrong.The third would be to build a rotary driller.  I haven't looked to much into this yet because I think this would be the most complex and expensive to build.  But in the same time it might be easier to run and be able to go down farther or threw rocks if I run into them.And one other option is to buy an old used well rig truck.  This would probably mean some maintenance but all the engineering would be done for me and just have to fix it up to run good.  The key would be finding one cheap enough that is in decent condition.  Or finding someone that has one that would want to rent it out, someone that had the same idea as me and bought one to drill their own and it's just sitting around.  This would have huge benefits to it, they would have some knowledge to share on wells and how to drill.I am going to keep researching this, I am in no hurry.  Was just seeing if anyone had done this and had some pictures of their rigs they built, or used rigs they bought..  Just gathering ideas to look into building my own rig.Thanks again for all the advice everyone.
Reply:here is a site with a  simple rotary system that I send people to whose yards are to small to get real equipment into. I dont know any that have actually used it but look at the bottom one on the right. it ought to be a simple build to copy http://www.deeprock.com/Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Reply:i have the deep rock rig and it works decent. i've only gone 65' down with mine. biggest problem i've found is the 1" drill rod doesn't flow enough water when you hit silt.
Reply:Thanks for the link Idacal.  That is a pretty neat unit, looks really simple and according to them it will drill a 6" hole up to 300' deep.   I sent them an email for prices and also more info.  Just out of curiousity since you say you drill wells, what is the average cost to have one drilled?  I understand there is lots of variables and different based on location but can you say a rough average?  Just curious since everyone I have talked to and says around 10,000 and one poster said 12,000, and then one poster above says 5,000 is a lot.Boatbouy, I see they have some models with a 1" stem and some with 1 3/8" stem, not sure if the bigger stem would help push silt or not.  Any advice you can give about using the drill?Originally Posted by idacalI have and run both rotary, and cable tool drilling rigs (or pounders) a cable tool will be a learning experiance for you, its usually 40s-60s equipment when life was cheaper and they are dangerous and require skill and luck to learn and run without assistance from a pro. a lot of people  bought them and lost drilling tools, fingers, and toes before the law changed in Idaho and you had to be a licensed driller to drill a well with motorized equipment. those rigs are still sitting around on holes that were never finished. I wouldnt recomend one for a novice unless you have a lot of experiance on dangerous equipment. but you should be able to pick up a junker for 3 to 8 thousand. and it would be worth that when you are done. as for rotary systems there is build your own drill rig plans on ebay those are slow but work okay for sand and clay but that sandstone might be an issue unless you have decent weight on your bits. as for sand points we have cobbles out here and those are almost useless. hope this helps a little.
Reply:ponch37300 around here a new well without a pump will run you 1400 for the seals and permits and 30.00 per foot and a pump system is 3000 to 3400. thats interesting to know about the deeprock I wonder if someone could run  2" pipe on it. that should improve its cleaning abilitys then it would only have a restriction at the swivel. are you running bentonite drilling fluid or just straight water? A 6" hole  needs at least 60 gallons a minute plus to keep the cuttings flushed out or the bigger ones just start falling back in. Think of it as a creek, when the water is running low it is carrying very little sediment but when its flooding it it will carry boulders the size of pickups with it.Last edited by idacal; 02-11-2011 at 06:55 PM.Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Reply:you might check out this  site. i have  this  machine and  i drilled 75 feet but  didnt  use gel or  bentonite and  hole  caved  in and  could only get my casing down 40 feet'drilled 7 inch hole but  ended up wit 3" casing so i use  a hand  pump on it  just  for  horses. i may  try again in  the summer.http://www.deeprock.com/HD/Default.aspx
Reply:the bentonite and/or gel make all the difference in the world getting through the silt layers. my unit has about a 3hp 2cycle motor .the gear box slows down the drill and increases the torque. its the water that does all the work except when you're going through rock. if you get a deep rock unit,i would fab a bracket to hold the hose and take the load off the rotating water coupling---it's not strong enough to support the hose without wearing out.
Reply:Originally Posted by retiredIWyou might check out this  site. i have  this  machine and  i drilled 75 feet but  didnt  use gel or  bentonite and  hole  caved  in and  could only get my casing down 40 feet'drilled 7 inch hole but  ended up wit 3" casing so i use  a hand  pump on it  just  for  horses. i may  try again in  the summer.http://www.deeprock.com/HD/Default.aspx
Reply:you really need to grout or seal the casing even if you only want an irragation well. you dont want to polute the aquifer since other people may get their drinking water from it.
Reply:I sent some messages to a couple companies about the little rotary rigs.  They say they can go 3-400' deep, I'm sure that deepends on soil conditions and rocks.  So my thinking right now is that I am going to go ahead and start collecting parts to build a home made rig. If it fails it fails, I won't be out to much money.  I can always use it for a post hole digger if nothing else!I see there are 2 styles, a direct drive that looks to be an earth auger and a hydralic drive.  Both are attached to a swivel that introduces the water to the stem pipe.  I haven't decided which style would be better.  I am thinking the hydralic pump and motor would be the better setup.  I would think it would have more power and also just be more reliable.After the drive the next part is a swivel.  This part I think I am going to have to buy.  I would like to make one and I can fab one up pretty easy but I have no idea what kind of seals they use in them?  So if anyone knows how to seal this I would be interested in hearing them.  Otherwise I sent an email off to a company that makes and sells them so will wait till next week to see how much these are.The frame of the rig will be pretty straight forward.  A couple of different designs but I think for simplicity I will stick with some pipe and make a carraige to attach the motor to that will go up and down.  Then just need a way to host the motor up and down.   This can be done by a chain and geared motor or a cable from a hand or electric winch.  I'm thinking of going with an electric winch, just a cheap one from harborfreight since it won't be ran much and at short intervals.So that is my game plan as of now but things can still change since I still have a lot of homework to do.  Feel free to add anything or share ideas.
Reply:check your pm mailbox
Reply:My neighbor has a old cable clam bucket machine and he made his well by digging a hole 35-40' down with it and then pounding a 12" pipe from there with the bucket. He perforated and made a point on the 12" then put 3" casing down and backfilled. That was back in '78 and is still going good. Btw, wells with just the drilling (no pump, wiring, etc.) round here are run about $4-5k.Last edited by RaptorDuner; 02-12-2011 at 11:11 PM.Millermatic 200Hobart Handler 120Victor O/A & Ramco BandsawLincoln 225 ACSnapOn AD HoodMiller XMT304/22AHypertherm Powermax 1650 G3Lincoln Idealarc DC600 w/Extreme 12 VSMiller Digital Elite "Joker"
Reply:Originally Posted by boatbuoycheck your pm mailbox
Reply:While we are on the subject of drilling wells, does any one know of an online resource that I can use to guesstimate how far down the water table is in my area (Greenville, SC)?
Reply:in michigan,the county keeps records on well depths. you might want to check with whoever issues the permits in your area.
Reply:Originally Posted by kb0thnBe careful of legal issues. Around here (Minnesota and Wisconsin), it is pretty illegal to drill your own well. Fear of contaminants and the like.But sandpoint wells are common. The chain farm and home improvement stores (Fleet Farm and Menards) sell sand points, drive adapters, jet pumps, and everything else you need.If you do do it yourself, be sure to have your water tested. A $15 mail-in test will show you if your water is safe to drink.And yes, wells are expensive. Spent $5k to put a new pump and pitless adapters into a well on my property. And the girlfriend spent $12k to drill a 220ft well and put a pump in on her property. The well driller, with 30 years of experience estimated her well would be 40ft deep...!-Jim
Reply:here is a good site to order plans for a build it yourself drill rig.......http://drillingfab.com/books.   I ordered one set and am building a rig in the near future.  try to post picks......good luckIf you see me running for no apparent reason, try to keep up:"Reality" What a concept!Miller Big 40 {1972} vintage, with 150 ft. of 000 leads, old Alaskan pipline welder.