up hill or down hill

admin

Ok here is one for you guys its my own little riddle just wanna see the awnsers i get then talk about it later hewre goes ......   if you have a up hill bead and a down hill bead using any kind of prosess and they are both 100% weld which one is betterLincoln Pro Core 125Lincolin sp 100Miller Big 40Lincoln Idealarc SP250miller matic 212http://www.facebook.com/hdwelding?sk=wallwww.hdweldingbeds.com
Reply:Uphill stack quicker, takes longer and is more apt to trap slag. Downhill is quicker, looks better and is less likely to trap slag. Proper technique and correct machine settings eliminate the problems. I prefer down because of the speed and simplicity. When I learned pipe, it was ALL uphill, root, too. Just when I mastered the process they changed to downhill....Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.                                         -Cree Indian ProverbSA 200 LincolnVictor Torches
Reply:It all depends on the thickness and how hot you're running. There is no quick and easy answer. The rule for MIG, when I was building locomotives, was 3/16 and less was dealers choice and anything thicker was uphill. Never had much luck with downhill TIG aluminum.Bill LambertArgon WeldingABQ NMSic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
Reply:Most WPS that I am familiar with for piping systems are uphill. Personally, I think you can get good performance either way.
Reply:I agree with all the above, especially Argon Welding. Most my truck work is on tube (.120 wall or the frames themselves- from .100 to .180) And in most cases on that, I will go all 4 directions, up, down, across, and inverted as I need to. On the thicker stuff, I will almost always wind up going uphill, and usually wind up doing more than one pass. On alum. tube and ss boat railings, the thickness will vary from .065 to .140. I will run again, in all 4 possible directions. I tend to go downhill on that tubing; it's cleaner visually.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Hey gizzardgutz, hate to tell you, but if you've been running any flux core downhill, you may want to get the grinder out. If you were to take a x-ray of a vertical down flux-core weld, you will definitely find slag in there. A.W.S. weld procedure only allow flux to be run in the flat, horizontal and vertical up. Vertical down does look nice, but it is the least penetrating weld, as vertical up is a little "humpier" but gives you the most penetration. I used to build pressure vessels for use in ethanol production, and all were allowed to weld was vertical up duel-shielded flux core, never failed an x-ray. Do not listen to gizzardgutz, downhill flux is unacceptable!!!!  By the way, I am certified by the state of WI for ASME pressure vessels in stainless, mild steel and stainless to mild flux-cored and also state certified for structural steel. So long story short, vertical up is the best weld as far as strength and penetration. The only benefit for vertical down is a smoother weld bead.Go hot, or go home!
Reply:you said it's a riddle, so if both welds are 100% they should both be the same, no difference
Reply:I am a stick welder, never used flux core in my life, therefore I wouldn't have known that. Don't plan on using either.Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.                                         -Cree Indian ProverbSA 200 LincolnVictor Torches
Reply:ok read the original post a little slower and think about it before you awnserLincoln Pro Core 125Lincolin sp 100Miller Big 40Lincoln Idealarc SP250miller matic 212http://www.facebook.com/hdwelding?sk=wallwww.hdweldingbeds.com
Reply:I'm TSSA certified to weld pressure pipe with stick and tig. I just renewed both my tickets on Tuesday, 6g tests.Downhill is faster, has less penetration and has a greater potential to trap slag with stick.Uphill has more penetration, less of a chance to trap slag with stick and is a bit slower.A quality welder can make either downhill or uphill work for what he's doing.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:ok its just killing me if both welds have 100% pennatration they are both the same all that technical stuff dont even come in to play 100% is 100% just like a test in school weather you take the test from start to finish or viseaversa and you score 100%  you score 100% ponder it a little it will come to youLincoln Pro Core 125Lincolin sp 100Miller Big 40Lincoln Idealarc SP250miller matic 212http://www.facebook.com/hdwelding?sk=wallwww.hdweldingbeds.com
Reply:Originally Posted by deucedj22Hey gizzardgutz, hate to tell you, but if you've been running any flux core downhill, you may want to get the grinder out. If you were to take a x-ray of a vertical down flux-core weld, you will definitely find slag in there. A.W.S. weld procedure only allow flux to be run in the flat, horizontal and vertical up. Vertical down does look nice, but it is the least penetrating weld, as vertical up is a little "humpier" but gives you the most penetration. I used to build pressure vessels for use in ethanol production, and all were allowed to weld was vertical up duel-shielded flux core, never failed an x-ray. Do not listen to gizzardgutz, downhill flux is unacceptable!!!!  By the way, I am certified by the state of WI for ASME pressure vessels in stainless, mild steel and stainless to mild flux-cored and also state certified for structural steel. So long story short, vertical up is the best weld as far as strength and penetration. The only benefit for vertical down is a smoother weld bead.
Reply:Originally Posted by ArgonWeldingIt all depends on the thickness and how hot you're running. There is no quick and easy answer. The rule for MIG, when I was building locomotives, was 3/16 and less was dealers choice and anything thicker was uphill. Never had much luck with downhill TIG aluminum.
Reply:The world is larger than AWS structural welding and ASME pressure vessel welding.  There is a whole bunch of downhill FCAW welding done in the transmission pipeline industry.  Good operators have no trouble passing 100% X-ray and/or UT inspection with gas or self shielded fluxcore filler metal products.  I've seen them welded semi-automatic and fully mechanized without a hitch.  As Rhyno mentioned the REX project, Cheyenne plains project, both included FCAW welding.  REX I know for certain used some downhill FCAW in some spreads.  There's 1000's of miles of pipeline in Asia, Europe, and Russia welded using downhill techniques and FCAW products.  It's not popular here in the Americas, but it's being used on a trial basis.All it takes is the right product, procedure, and a skilled weldor...In so far as benefits are concerned.  Travel speeds are higher welding downhill.  Heat input can be lower, which can be critical when welding higher strength steels.Before I forget about the OP.  I don't see any difference between uphill and downhill welding when both are done correctly.  There's a time and a place for each.  A skilled golfer can use any club in their bag, a skilled professional welder should be comfortable with all the commonly available welding processes and techniques. Originally Posted by deucedj22Hey gizzardgutz, hate to tell you, but if you've been running any flux core downhill, you may want to get the grinder out. If you were to take a x-ray of a vertical down flux-core weld, you will definitely find slag in there. A.W.S. weld procedure only allow flux to be run in the flat, horizontal and vertical up. Vertical down does look nice, but it is the least penetrating weld, as vertical up is a little "humpier" but gives you the most penetration. I used to build pressure vessels for use in ethanol production, and all were allowed to weld was vertical up duel-shielded flux core, never failed an x-ray. Do not listen to gizzardgutz, downhill flux is unacceptable!!!!  By the way, I am certified by the state of WI for ASME pressure vessels in stainless, mild steel and stainless to mild flux-cored and also state certified for structural steel. So long story short, vertical up is the best weld as far as strength and penetration. The only benefit for vertical down is a smoother weld bead.
Reply:AWS test procedure for D1.3 fluxcore, postion 3, is DOWN.  For D1.1 fluxcore and stick and D1.8 fluxcore, position 3, it's UP.  Most processes can be run up or down, depending on thickness and the particular filler/electrode being used.   In most circumstances, provided the electrode/filler type allows for it, for thicker metal, UP gives best penetration, while DOWN is acceptable on thinner metal.   This is especially true for tig and mig, while more restrictions come into play with stick and fluxcore, due to the flux characteristics of the particular electrode in question.Last edited by DesertRider33; 01-18-2010 at 02:46 PM.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Which ever one i welded
Reply:Originally Posted by heimbuckweldingOk here is one for you guys its my own little riddle just wanna see the awnsers i get then talk about it later hewre goes ......   if you have a up hill bead and a down hill bead using any kind of prosess and they are both 100% weld which one is better
Reply:Dealing in hypothetical situations, IF you could get 100% penetration welding 5/16 aluminum doing TIG downhill, then yes, it would be the same as uphill. It would also be in fantasy world because is sure isn't happening on earth.Bill LambertArgon WeldingABQ NMSic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
Reply:wow you guys are reading way to much in to it if you have 100% penatration up hill or 100% penatration down hill they are equal doesnt  matter what  the process material consumable or any of the other bizzar factors you all are putting in to it 100% penatration is 100% penatration DUH! wow what a bunch of professional welders we have here.Lincoln Pro Core 125Lincolin sp 100Miller Big 40Lincoln Idealarc SP250miller matic 212http://www.facebook.com/hdwelding?sk=wallwww.hdweldingbeds.com
Reply:oh and by the way you can get 100% penatration up hill or down hill you just have to know what your doing any monkey can run a bead it takes talent to be a welderLincoln Pro Core 125Lincolin sp 100Miller Big 40Lincoln Idealarc SP250miller matic 212http://www.facebook.com/hdwelding?sk=wallwww.hdweldingbeds.com
Reply:Originally Posted by heimbuckweldingany monkey can run a bead it takes talent to be a welder
Reply:Originally Posted by heimbuckweldingOk here is one for you guys its my own little riddle ...   if you have a up hill bead and a down hill bead using any kind of prosess and they are both 100% weld which one is better
Reply:I'd trust an uphill any day of the week over a downhill weld if its anything of any kind of importance. I think any welder wih any sense or experience would agree with that. Sure you can get full penetration with up or down, but your fusion is much greater with uphill.
Reply:Heat does rise. Why fight it when you can use it to your advantage.
Reply:if i remember right the rate of speed at whitch items fall is exactly the same no matter how much they weighLincoln Pro Core 125Lincolin sp 100Miller Big 40Lincoln Idealarc SP250miller matic 212http://www.facebook.com/hdwelding?sk=wallwww.hdweldingbeds.comOriginally Posted by El_LloydeoI'd trust an uphill any day of the week over a downhill weld if its anything of any kind of importance. I think any welder wih any sense or experience would agree with that. Sure you can get full penetration with up or down, but your fusion is much greater with uphill.
Reply:I have to add something else....Uphill or downhill..... It really depends on the Procedures.  (Material, Process, Polarity, Filler material and most of all, Money.)  Downhill welding is faster in the piping world.  And like any job, time is money.For all of the Low-Hy people..... What about Downhill, Low-Hydrogen stick rod?-Rhyno07 Fowler 200D65 RedFace04 Miller TB 302, 22hpMiller 12RCMiller HF 251-1Lincoln SP135HyperTherm PM 380and a few others... Originally Posted by RhynoBut, if I "all of a sudden disappear....  ...." hopefully I didn't suffer too much....
Reply:POSITION does not dictate the strength of the weld. --Gol'
Reply:Originally Posted by heimbuckweldingif i remember right the rate of speed at whitch items fall is exactly the same no matter how much they weigh
Reply:never got the answer to this riddle..lol still waiting Cigweld Transmig 265seBoc 140amp StickBoss 200amp AC/DC TIGLincoln Electric Invertec V260-S
Reply:Originally Posted by SandyOne guy jumps out of an airplane with a parachute, the other jumps out holding a bowling ball, they should both hit the ground at the same time.
Reply:It's so simple it's funny. 100% is considered perfect if its a weld or anything else in like. So a 100% weld up or down is still perfect and if two welds are both perfect then one can't be better than the other or else one wouldn't be perfect. Kids know that 100% is 100% how come some of the professional people here don't. To many people over think the little things once they are a big shot.
Reply:And in the end, those last 2 posts really sum it up. Thanks for playing.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Missed page 2...the game already ended.Last edited by tanglediver; 04-25-2010 at 05:00 PM.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Originally Posted by papabearIf you drop 10 pounds of feathers and 10 pounds of bricks from the same height, at exactly the same time, which will hit the ground first?
Reply:Originally Posted by SandyOne guy jumps out of an airplane with a parachute, the other jumps out holding a bowling ball, they should both hit the ground at the same time.
Reply:its as good as the person welding it cause if they are both 100%  its all in the speed and heat the down would be slow weld while the up hill be a little faster to avoid to much build up so in English they are the same
Reply:well the last few are right on target like mega arc said kids know that 100% means 100%  why cant the adults see that and that is with any thing weather its welding or driving or any thing else thanks for all the replies got a laugh out of some still thinking on my next riddle hope it is just as entertainingLincoln Pro Core 125Lincolin sp 100Miller Big 40Lincoln Idealarc SP250miller matic 212http://www.facebook.com/hdwelding?sk=wallwww.hdweldingbeds.com
Reply:I maintain that they aren't the same. As someone who has done quite a bit of costing analysis for weldings.  there's more to think about than just 100% penetration. For example welding overhead has a higher defect rate, not that it's weaker or anything than a flat weld it's just harder and slower to do,  I would much sooner flip over an entire work piece rather than have welders do a bunch of overhead 100% xray welds.likewise  welding uphill and downhill isn't just about 100% penetration. sometimes you have to balance things like defect rate, travel speed, and heat input because they vary from process to process and position to position.If you can uphill 20ga Steel via TIG I'll eat my hat, and more importantly can you do it at the 12-15 in/min you can do it at downhill?   mechanically they'll be the same, but one will be much more successful. Mechancal characteristics wise, usually they aren't much different but you also do vary the heat input which may or may not be sensitive.  This isn't a riddle so much as a vague question. There's a time and a place for either position.Welding EngineerCertified Scrap Producer
Reply:Vertical up for anything critical or over 1/4" thickness. Vert down is great for seal welding or anything that doesn't have significant structural regard.
Reply:Originally Posted by heimbuckweldingwow you guys are reading way to much in to it if you have 100% penatration up hill or 100% penatration down hill they are equal doesnt  matter what  the process material consumable or any of the other bizzar factors you all are putting in to it 100% penatration is 100% penatration DUH! wow what a bunch of professional welders we have here.
Reply:Originally Posted by MetarinkaThere's a time and a place for either position.