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Hello. I have some Lowes steel square tubing I'll be welding soon. Caliper thickness is .050.I'll be using 030 or 035 fluxcore. What is approx.distance should I gap for 2 pieces to be welded? Thx, DM
Reply:Depends...Tube that thin I probably wouldn't gap at all with FC wire ( run the .030 wire BTW). I'm betting you will have a tough time NOT blowing holes thru the edges, let alone having to deal with a gap. Most hobby welders I know usually can't do much thinner than 1/16" ( 16 ga) without blowing holes in the edges with FC wire. 18ga is probably ok with a bit of skill and practice.I'd only gap thicker materials, and for those that are not too skilled, I'd suggest a bevel rather than a gap. Also things like T's and laps, generally don't need gaps or bevels. It's usually only but joints that you have this issue.FYI Lowes/Depot are usually the most expensive places to pick up steel. I bet I can get 2-3 times the length you got for the same money from one of the smaller places I deal with that sells steel. If I order a quantity at one of the bigger places, it's usually even cheaper..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWDepends...Tube that thin I probably wouldn't gap at all with FC wire ( run the .030 wire BTW). I'm betting you will have a tough time NOT blowing holes thru the edges, let alone having to deal with a gap. Most hobby welders I know usually can't do much thinner than 1/16" ( 16 ga) without blowing holes in the edges with FC wire. 18ga is probably ok with a bit of skill and practice.I'd only gap thicker materials, and for those that are not too skilled, I'd suggest a bevel rather than a gap. Also things like T's and laps, generally don't need gaps or bevels. It's usually only but joints that you have this issue.FYI Lowes/Depot are usually the most expensive places to pick up steel. I bet I can get 2-3 times the length you got for the same money from one of the smaller places I deal with that sells steel. If I order a quantity at one of the bigger places, it's usually even cheaper.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI'm betting you will have a tough time NOT blowing holes thru the edges, let alone having to deal with a gap. Most hobby welders I know usually can't do much thinner than 1/16" ( 16 ga) without blowing holes in the edges with FC wire. 18ga is probably ok with a bit of skill and practice.
Reply:My table shows .049 as 18 gauge for strip and tubing. 16 ga is just over .0625 ( .065 in my table for strip and tube). It's easier to remember 16 ga equal 1/16"...Gas and .023 solid wire is the way to go. It's doable with .030 solid wire, but it's a bit harder to fine tune the settings..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWMy table shows .049 as 18 gauge for strip and tubing. 16 ga is just over .0625 ( .065 in my table for strip and tube). It's easier to remember 16 ga equal 1/16"...Gas and .023 solid wire is the way to go. It's doable with .030 solid wire, but it's a bit harder to fine tune the settings.
Reply:Originally Posted by drmaxI get the thickness mixed up. I'm used to wire size and the larger the scale, the smaller the wirer. Oposite with the metal.
Reply:I built this lumber rack out of 16-GA square tubing. I used .023 solid wire with C-25. All I have are 15-feet long guns, the Mig machine I used at that time really had a hard time feeding .023 wire if I didn't keep the gun really straight. If I forgot while moving around, I'd have a bird's nest at the drive rolls. Attached ImagesDont pay any attention to meIm just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI built this lumber rack out of 16-GA square tubing. I used .023 solid wire with C-25. All I have are 15-feet long guns, the Mig machine I used at that time really had a hard time feeding .023 wire if I didn't keep the gun really straight. If I forgot while moving around, I'd have a bird's nest at the drive rolls.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWIt's the same as wire. Bigger the number, the thinner the material. 11 ga is 1/8" roughly, 14 gauge is 3/32" roughly, 16 ga is 1/16". 22 ga is about 1/32". After a bit you start to remember common sizes, 11ga = 1/8", 16 ga = 1/16" etc...Close. If you want to use FC wire, go with .030 though, not .035. the thicker wire needs more volts to run well, so you need to set the machine "hotter".Correct. The thin material will be the limiting factor, not the thicker bar in this case.
Reply:Say, was thinking of picking up a chop saw type machine today. I'll bet harbor freight has one. I've been cutting my piece with a hand held, and that is a talent in itself! My band saw with metal blade strains to get through it, so won't be using this anymore.
Reply:What bandsaw do you have? My bandsaw cuts much better than any of my abrasive chop saws, but it is slower. Also I can't remember what machine you have. Many smaller machines have double sided drive rollers, so you may be able to run .023 wire no problem.Abrasive chop saws have their place, they are inexpensive and great for materials that eat other blades. They aren't the most accurate, especially with angles due to blade flex and are very messy..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWWhat bandsaw do you have? My bandsaw cuts much better than any of my abrasive chop saws, but it is slower. Also I can't remember what machine you have. Many smaller machines have double sided drive rollers, so you may be able to run .023 wire no problem.Abrasive chop saws have their place, they are inexpensive and great for materials that eat other blades. They aren't the most accurate, especially with angles due to blade flex and are very messy.
Reply:If it's the one I'm thinking of, the upright saws usually run at too high an RPM for steel. The horizontal bandsaws run at a much lower RPM. You can put a steel blade on the upright saws, but they usually strip the teeth right away on steel..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWIf it's the one I'm thinking of, the upright saws usually run at too high an RPM for steel. The horizontal bandsaws run at a much lower RPM. You can put a steel blade on the upright saws, but they usually strip the teeth right away on steel.
Reply:While you are at harbor freight, see if they have a drive roll for your welder that works with .023 wire.
Reply:Originally Posted by davido30093While you are at harbor freight, see if they have a drive roll for your welder that works with .023 wire.
Reply:Most people here have mixed things up over degree of penetration. The proper way to join structural tubing is to insert a backing ring inside the one end. The second piece is slipped over the projecting part to the ring leaving a gap equal to the thickness of the wall. So the answer is ..... to leave a gap equal to the thickness and then weld into the backing ring. You eliminate the risk of melting through and you ensure good fusion to both sides of the joint. Unless the tube requires to be smooth on the inside the above method is recommended and commonly used on hollow members over several feet across.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI built this lumber rack out of 16-GA square tubing. I used .023 solid wire with C-25. All I have are 15-feet long guns, the Mig machine I used at that time really had a hard time feeding .023 wire if I didn't keep the gun really straight. If I forgot while moving around, I'd have a bird's nest at the drive rolls.
Reply:Originally Posted by lotechmanMost people here have mixed things up over degree of penetration. The proper way to join structural tubing is to insert a backing ring inside the one end. The second piece is slipped over the projecting part to the ring leaving a gap equal to the thickness of the wall. So the answer is ..... to leave a gap equal to the thickness and then weld into the backing ring. You eliminate the risk of melting through and you ensure good fusion to both sides of the joint. Unless the tube requires to be smooth on the inside the above method is recommended and commonly used on hollow members over several feet across.
Reply:Originally Posted by lotechmanMost people here have mixed things up over degree of penetration. The proper way to join structural tubing is to insert a backing ring inside the one end. The second piece is slipped over the projecting part to the ring leaving a gap equal to the thickness of the wall. So the answer is ..... to leave a gap equal to the thickness and then weld into the backing ring. You eliminate the risk of melting through and you ensure good fusion to both sides of the joint. Unless the tube requires to be smooth on the inside the above method is recommended and commonly used on hollow members over several feet across.
Reply:Originally Posted by docwelderwas it hard bending that tubing in such a tight radius without kinking?
Reply:Am I correct, that one of the reason's there is flux core, is outside in the wind? I'm very far from good, but it sure made a splattery ugly mess. Maybe it was because of the brand (HF) wire, or that I didn't buff the metal 1st (and of course me being new)...but it really turned out ugly.
Reply:I have welded with flux core self shield wire when the wind was blowing so hard I couldn't hardly walk, and it did not effect the weld. Pick up a roll of Lincoln's NR-211, NR-212, or Hobart's Fabshield 21-B.Dont pay any attention to meIm just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI have welded with flux core self shield wire when the wind was blowing so hard I couldn't hardly walk, and it did not effect the weld. Pick up a roll of Lincoln's NR-211, NR-212, or Hobart's Fabshield 21-B.the man just told you which wire to get.i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:I have no idea, I've never bought wire from Harbor Freight.I've had good luck with Lincoln's L-56 wire. http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us...olnElectric%29Dont pay any attention to meIm just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Well if her gap gets to be over 2" then it is time to leave her for sure.
Reply:Originally Posted by docwelder18ga is a very far cry from structural imho
Reply:Originally Posted by docwelderthe man just told you which wire to get.
Reply:Originally Posted by drmaxI thought that was flux core. I want to know solid core....read man
Reply:I never buy HF wire, so I can't comment on how well that runs. With your HF machine however my guess would be most issues come from the machine, not the brand of solid wire.Personally I'll spend the few extra bucks to get decent wire for my projects and not worry about it. I usually get what the LWS stocks as they generally don't stock junk. I'd have to go dig and see whose wire I bought last time..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSW....FYI Lowes/Depot are usually the most expensive places to pick up steel. I bet I can get 2-3 times the length you got for the same money from one of the smaller places I deal with that sells steel. If I order a quantity at one of the bigger places, it's usually even cheaper.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWDepends...Tube that thin I probably wouldn't gap at all with FC wire ( run the .030 wire BTW). I'm betting you will have a tough time NOT blowing holes thru the edges, let alone having to deal with a gap. Most hobby welders I know usually can't do much thinner than 1/16" ( 16 ga) without blowing holes in the edges with FC wire. 18ga is probably ok with a bit of skill and practice.I'd only gap thicker materials, and for those that are not too skilled, I'd suggest a bevel rather than a gap. Also things like T's and laps, generally don't need gaps or bevels. It's usually only but joints that you have this issue.FYI Lowes/Depot are usually the most expensive places to pick up steel. I bet I can get 2-3 times the length you got for the same money from one of the smaller places I deal with that sells steel. If I order a quantity at one of the bigger places, it's usually even cheaper.
Reply:You can do 16 ga with either one. If I was doing 16 ga and less mostly, I'd opt for the smaller wire. If I needed to do thicker stuff, then I'd opt for .030 wire..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by MondoI hear that argument here all the time and on the face it can't be challenged. But sometimes paying more saves on total cost.....The bottom line is you have to have money (and storage space) to save money. A lot of the professionals here seem to be unaware that some of us hobbyists and other part-timers do not consume enough per week, month, or year to justify the costs of buying in larger volumes hoping some new project may crop up requiring the excess we bought when doing the last little job. And that is only if we have the space to store it!
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI won't argue against that. My point was more that the new guy who is trying to practice can get more bang for his buck by going elsewhere for steel. It wouldn't pay me to drive all the way to Fazzio's in South Jersey for 6' of perforated angle I need to hang the garage door on Saturday unless I could combine the trip with other errands. However I do have several small suppliers near me that will sell by the foot for way less than the material will cost at say Depot.The big point being the only way you can learn to do this is to practice. I see a lot of guys who are handicapped by cost of practice materials. Being able to get 2-3 times the amount of "practice" in for the same money is usually a "win" for most people. You do have to figure in other factors like mileage as well.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWYou can do 16 ga with either one. If I was doing 16 ga and less mostly, I'd opt for the smaller wire. If I needed to do thicker stuff, then I'd opt for .030 wire.
Reply:Larger wire carries more volts, and thus usually lets you get more "heat" to the weld for better penetration and more strength. Miller lists 16 ga as falling right in the middle of the bracket for .030 wire. .023 wire is rated just under 16 ga in the same chart, but they also list settings on their machines for thicknesses grater than 16 ga. Like many things there's a lot more to things like this. Joint type and prep would make a big difference. If you are working to thin edges, you might find smaller wire to be more advantageous. If you are doing fillets like T's or laps, then larger wire and more "heat" might be a better choice.I keep .030 wire loaded in my 200 amp mig. I find it's a good compromise that I can use to do thin or thicker material. My small 110v mig stays loaded with .023 wire since I primarily use it for sheet metal work and the occasional light weld on small stuff..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWLarger wire carries more volts, and thus usually lets you get more "heat" to the weld for better penetration and more strength. Miller lists 16 ga as falling right in the middle of the bracket for .030 wire. .023 wire is rated just under 16 ga in the same chart, but they also list settings on their machines for thicknesses grater than 16 ga. Like many things there's a lot more to things like this. Joint type and prep would make a big difference. If you are working to thin edges, you might find smaller wire to be more advantageous. If you are doing fillets like T's or laps, then larger wire and more "heat" might be a better choice.I keep .030 wire loaded in my 200 amp mig. I find it's a good compromise that I can use to do thin or thicker material. My small 110v mig stays loaded with .023 wire since I primarily use it for sheet metal work and the occasional light weld on small stuff.
Reply:No my back is bothering me this week. I managed to get about 4 hrs of sleep from around 7pm before I had to get up due to the discomfort. I'll hit the sack again in a bit for another few hours if I'm lucky.But welds are tricky. they are the hardest for most students to get right. You need to either bevel or gap so you get max penetration, but have to be careful due to the "thin" edges that melt back fast. It takes practice to get good but welds without having poor penetration or blowing holes in stuff. You may find it helpful to try and find some material you can slip in the joint to back up the weld, tube in tube or some small pieces tacked up to fit the inside of the tube. Then you can "gap" the two pieces and weld both together with the backer all at the same time for max strength..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Between a cold and working additional hrs at my job, I have not started with gas yet. I heard from another that gas will make this even hotter. Is there some truth with this, as far as me being concerned with burn through? I had it in my head that there would be less chance of that happening, with gas.Also, instead of being able to run material inside, I bought a stick of 1" by 1/8th flat steel that I invisioned cutting 1" pieces...grinding the seam bead flat (that I will weld initially) then welding the pieces over the corners for additional strenght. Any though on this. Sorta leary of this, as that bead will be so small anyways. Just wanting to get off on the right tract, off the get-go.I may post a picture here of my project held together with magnets, to give help with your thoughts. DMLast edited by drmax; 01-19-2013 at 09:52 PM.
Reply:Hey drmax. I've been following your project thread. I am a hobby welder and been welding about 6 years. I think you are getting a lot of different advice and getting mixed up a little. Use the .023 solid wire with gas. Practice on some scrap until you can control the puddle. Then just weld it. It probably will not be perfect but each project you will get better. I'm surprised no one else jumped on the fact you are making a towbar for an airplane. That sounds like critical welds to me. Maybe that is not a good first project. Or else find an experienced welder to help. Good luck and post some pictures.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:If you have a machine that doesn't like thin steel, or wire that doesn't like thin steel..............go up a ga to 14ga material. Real simple in most cases. Or outfit your machine for thinner stuff.On butt welds.....just cut the stuff, and butt it up. Then weld it. Leave the weld proud (don't grind it flush), and you have a good joint. The guru's will cry about stress raisers, but in most cases you'll be allright. Remember you're dealing with pretty thin stuff here."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Say drmax, I welded up some 16 ga to bed frame to 16 ga DOM to 1/4 " angle using 0.035 FCAW. I use what I have. No problems and burn thru was only when I cut parts off to change design twice.Now that your already setup for MIG/ gas 0.025, you might as well stick with it. It does work better for thin stuf according to the charts/authorities. Remember to change your polarity from fluxcore to MIG/gas. Also, fluxcore leaves slag so you drag the torch. For MIG, you need to push the torch for better penetration. At least thats what LINCOLN saiz in chapter 7 of New lessons in ARC WELDING. I dont know what your gas pressure should be but more is not always better. I would go for minimum flow. You didnt mention your settings. I would start at 40% of your 180amp machine and wire speed slow then adjust to your preference. I would try to design your tow bar so that the load goes thru the frame and not the welds where ever possible.The advice from lotechman is a good idea for avoiding burn thru. I dont completely understand what he said but basically, theres another piece of metal inside the tubing. Some tubing will fit inside another piece of tubing. See if you can find the next size down from what you plan to use and see if it slides inside. That should satisfy the suggestion by lotechman.
Reply:Originally Posted by wb4rtHey drmax. I've been following your project thread. I am a hobby welder and been welding about 6 years. I think you are getting a lot of different advice and getting mixed up a little. Use the .023 solid wire with gas. Practice on some scrap until you can control the puddle. Then just weld it. It probably will not be perfect but each project you will get better. I'm surprised no one else jumped on the fact you are making a towbar for an airplane. That sounds like critical welds to me. Maybe that is not a good first project. Or else find an experienced welder to help. Good luck and post some pictures.
Reply:The airplane is 1100lbs??Forget the drama, and do the towbar out of 11ga tubing. Sturdy stuff, and up to the stress.Anything thinner is foolish.Tubing is used to counteract torque, the thicker the walls the better resistance to twisting. And there's gonna be some real twisting torque on a towbar.Get into 11ga, and you can throw the wire welder out with the bathwater, and step up to a stick welder.And you're dealing with tearout problems too. Thin crap, no matter how well it's welded, will tear out under a load. You have any idea how much stress is generated when you change directions when towing something..........side draft. 3/16 wall wouldn't be an overbuild on this type of thing. You're only talking maybe 2-2 1/2" tubing after all, not all that heavy in a heavier wall design.Crappy design will kill ya before crappy welds, believe me"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Finally getting around to practice. Using the 16 gage tubing as previously posted, my settings of mig are 15 gas, B temp, 4 wire speed using .023. It appears to be good penentration, but will continue to use my practice flat 16 gage to ck this out. My tip on gun....is my question. The inner tip is recessed perhaps 1/4" behind the outter shield.I thought I read where this is suppose to be nearly flush with each other. As it is, I'm almost touching the gun on the material, to make a good weld. Seem if I'd grind the outter shield down and get the inner tip to protrude a bit, I'd have better results. Please advise on gas settings and tip. Thx, DMPS...no blow through, so my mind is a bit more at ease...(-:
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammThe airplane is 1100lbs??Forget the drama, and do the towbar out of 11ga tubing. Sturdy stuff, and up to the stress.Anything thinner is foolish.Tubing is used to counteract torque, the thicker the walls the better resistance to twisting. And there's gonna be some real twisting torque on a towbar.Get into 11ga, and you can throw the wire welder out with the bathwater, and step up to a stick welder.And you're dealing with tearout problems too. Thin crap, no matter how well it's welded, will tear out under a load. You have any idea how much stress is generated when you change directions when towing something..........side draft. 3/16 wall wouldn't be an overbuild on this type of thing. You're only talking maybe 2-2 1/2" tubing after all, not all that heavy in a heavier wall design.Crappy design will kill ya before crappy welds, believe me
Reply:I changed my setting down to "A" for 30 amps and 3.5 on wire speed. (the .023 wire seems to like this setting) This "appears" to give propper penetration and lays out a nicer bead. No way there'll be a stack of nickels on these short thin distances without blowthrough, which I was able to accomplish with a higher amp setting. After doing 4 sides, I was not able to break the weld in a vice. He is my 1 pic. DM Attached Images |
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发表于 2021-8-31 23:37:22