Labor Pool Question

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I work for a small shop.  Owner and three employees.  We are not a welding shop but there is a need someone with those skills.  The owner is not in the shop most of the time he is out bidding or getting materials ect.  So we are expected to be able to keep things going regardless of his presence.  Before saying anything bad about the other employees I should say that they are reliable.  They show up every day, on time.  We have a time clock but that is only for pay purposes, there is no set time for us to start working.  If we are a couple minutes late we are not going to get counselled or anything like that.  We all punch in about 20 minutes early and go to work.The two other guys in the shop though show a complete lack of respect for tools.  They break them, lose them and don't care in the least bit.  It is almost getting to be a real problem where everything they touch gets torn up.  I am not sure what the reasoning is.The one guy has been there for years and years.  It seems to me that when he doesn't want to work he will break the tool he needs to accomplish the task.  I am not sure that he is breaking things because of ignorance or laziness but in either case there is a problem.  He also cannot make a decision without approval.  Even the most simple decisions he will not make without getting a nod from someone else.  I don't know if that is lack of confidence or needing an escape if things go bad.  Even the simplest of things.  Yesterday he was doing some cosmetic work and thought he had a better idea.  I asked him if it would be faster?  Would it cost more money?  Would it turn out a better product?  Are there any downsides at all to your idea?  Then do it, we have sound reasoning for it and if the boss asks tell him if he gets mad I would take the heat for it.The other guy is a twenty something felon.  He got a job there as a favor to his father.  He needs constant management otherwise his hands end up either in his pockets or on the keyboard of his I-phone.  He knows nothing about anything.  He is currently angry because he is not held in high enough regard from his coworkers.  Anything he accomplishes he needs praise.  Whatever he is currently paid is twice as much as he is worth.The boss has told me that he has trouble finding people that will just show up for work.  Then some had to go across the street to the liquor store to get a bottle for lunch or smoked pot right in the dang shop.Is this really the best of the labor pool?  People that are either incapable of making decisions or too scared to do it?  That need to be constantly managed?  Where have critical thinking skills gone and problem solving skills gone?
Reply:I don't think there's an easy answer, but it does make you think that this is why a lot of places either pay based on what you get done, not the time you spent, and make you bring your own tools...right or wrong, to some people it's extra incentive to do a good job and put food on the table.I also think that the wages across all career fields are skewed pretty bad and it just creates some weird situations like this.  Before I found my current job, I was looking for tech jobs and all I could find was $9/hour crappy computer repair gigs with no benefits.  I have a college degree and a lot of years of experience, I know a lot of really technical stuff, why does your typical person in the legal/medical field with the same or less qualifications as I have "deserve" to earn way more?It's ****ty, and it's depressing, and I can imagine that if you get caught in a rut, it'd be real easy to just give up and not care about what you're doing...personal/mental issues, substance abuse and legal issues could potentially make it exponentially worse.Anyway, my opinion is no, there are a LOT of highly qualified people out there that would fit in with your shop really well...they just already have jobs where they are valued and are paid accordingly or are self employed and loving it.  Gotta find the right person at the right time I think!
Reply:I agree branger.  There are many qualified and capable people in this world.My complaint mostly is that many people in this world have lost the ability to make a sound decision.  We don't work in a trauma center where decisions need to made in a split second, we have time to work out the problems and consider the alternatives.  I was not hired to be a supervisor.  But if nobody in the shop is willing to make a decision the whole process comes to a halt.  Want to see a boss get really mad, have him come into the shop and see everyone sitting on their tailbones waiting for him to make a trivial decision.  I find that I am the only one who is willing to put his nutz on the chopping block and make a decision to keep the entire process in motion.  The boss isn't an unreasonable guy. The guys in the shop seem to be under the impression that at night the boss sleeps on a mattress stuffed with money and if something gets ruined they have an awe heck he can afford to go buy another one attitude.
Reply:I can relate, I guess that is the difference between you, I and "those" co-workers...I try to run the place like it was my own when I'm left unsupervised...the tree is only as strong as its roots, so to speak.Not that it makes it right but I can see how people don't care about tools and stuff, friend of mine works for a place where the boss is a multi millionaire and pays his help $10/hour.  They can't understand when he goes on about how bad the old Hummer that he just traded in on a new one was when they're having trouble feeding the kids, I probably wouldn't care for his stuff much either.Clarke 85EN converted to gasClarke 180EN20th Century AC/DC transformer stick welderCentury 110v AC buzz box
Reply:Where is this shop with the employees that have no initiative?  I may have a "live wire" to send you way.I offer three choices: Good, Fast, & Cheap. You may pick two.Hobart AC/DC StikMate LXHarbor Freight AD HoodHarbor Freight Industrial Chop SawDeVilbis 20 Gallon, 5 HP Compressor
Reply:I commute 170 miles a day.  So when I took this job we made a deal that the only way I figured I could make it work was by working a lot of hours and fewer days.  My boss pays fairly.  I am not in the market for a tropical island but also not worried about putting food on the table.  I figure he fulfills his end of the bargain when I cash his check and it doesn't bounce.  My end of the bargain is to go to work, and make him money all day.I stay later than any other of the help so many times we will talk about things. I will see the pressure and the amount of stress he is under that the other guys don't see.  He will vent to me about jobs that went horribly wrong and were a loss but had to be honored.I figure that I can take some stress off him by telling him not to worry about the shop.  Go bid work for us and we will get it done, one way or another.  In these times I would rather have a problem with deadlines and too much work than have stress about cash flow and keeping the doors open.
Reply:Originally Posted by nadogailWhere is this shop with the employees that have no initiative?  I may have a "live wire" to send you way.
Reply:Where are you located ?  Is there that much work in your area ?  What is the quality of the tools and equipment  ?  How can one shop have such a elite work force in one group ?    It sounds like a   ''HELP WANTED'' sign needs to be posted outside. These guys need some motivation, either $hit or get off the pot !  If they don't know how or what to do, You or someone must tell them. If a drawing is required, it must be explained to them. Do not let them decide how to do it , direct them on what to do. They are there to paint and not pick the color !
Reply:Convince the boss that if he fires the young felon, the rest can get the jobs done faster. Maybe the old guy will take the hint. Course cutting either of them to 32 hours works wonders too. That way they have to prove themselves worthy of 40 hours.It's all about the burden they put upon you guys that can produce and have to carry their burden.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonConvince the boss that if he fires the young felon, the rest can get the jobs done faster. Maybe the old guy will take the hint. Course cutting either of them to 32 hours works wonders too. That way they have to prove themselves worthy of 40 hours.It's all about the burden they put upon you guys that can produce and have to carry their burden.
Reply:round here we cant find any help that will show up. if they do decide to show up, they dont know a fjling thing about manual labor. if it doesnt involve a computer or a smartphone they are screwed. is this really what we are all gonna have to depend on later in the workforce future ? i learned to just shut my mouth and do it all myself. i dont know if il hire helpers again.MM 251MM 135Lincoln Pro cut 55Bobcat 250Miller Thunderbolt ac/dcolder ac forneyJackson nexgen 3n13-Smith OP setups97 Dodge dieselMakita chopsawJet swivel head bandsawlincoln tig 300/30030a spoolgunpuma port. gas air comp.
Reply:I'm a little older and don't work with young kids in my field (office job) and my wife and I dont' have kids, so been reading this with interest, since I just don't know what young kids are like coming out of high school.  But this sounds to me like Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerburg ruined the US labor market right along with meth, pot, and cheap overseas imports.Don't get me wrong, cheap overseas imports don't bother me so much as long as the working conditions are half decent and the wage is decent for where someone lives.  But, If I see one more group of kids walking across the street with their heads down and faces glowing from an iphone screen I'm going to scream.  Seriously, WTF is it??  Can anyone explain?Don't mean to say the Old Days were better, but I grew up in a decent neighborhood with good parents around that had jobs.  Yet all the lawns were mowed by neighbor kids.  You got your allowance if you did your chores, and you charged the retired couple 2 or 3 dollars for a regular yard, and maybe 4 if you raked and bagged leaves.  After 9 year at my current house, not one kid has come over and asked to mow the lawn, rake, weed, paint, nothing.  Well, there was one little kid that offered to pick up dog poop for "25 cents small, 50 cents large"  I'm very very fortunate in life.  When food shows up in front of me, i look at it and think about how much there is, how fortunate I am and the millions of people who eat nothing on most days.  All generations have their entitled kids but something about today seems rampant.The kids that do get up and go are awfully impressive, so they get a Big Thank You and Cheer from me.ps, go with the Help Wanted sign.  That was brilliant. Last edited by RodJ; 02-15-2013 at 09:55 AM.
Reply:^ to the post above, im 21 years old. brought up right (id like to think). i get up and get to the job early everyday. sometimes out of state, so be it. i love what i do. (ironworker apprentice). sure i have an iphone, but that stays in the lunch box until lunch break. and goes back in till work quits. to be honest, its a hassle in my pocket, and a distraction. i choose to put it away. though i don't see many other kids my age doing the same....its the generation before us that ruined my generation. spoiled the crap out of their kids.to the OP, its weird i read the entire thread... i worked at a shop with almost the SAME issues. tools were once there, once nice. attitudes were good for some, terrible for others. boss was incredibly smart, trying to run an entire company alone (office, field, shop). not a small company either. most people were laborers and nothing more. some wanted to learn from the old guys, most didnt care. and the ones that wanted to, did to many drugs and were so hungover they couldn't retain any information.. really a shame.i can't understand why one wouldn't want to learn from experienced guys. im like a sponge. if they're willing to teach im there....in my eyes knowledge is key. so is experience but i have the rest of my life for that LOL.Miller ab/p 330Hobart champ 16Miller 140Lincoln Power Mig 255Lincoln SA-250
Reply:Originally Posted by j440^ to the post above, im 21 years old. brought up right (id like to think). i get up and get to the job early everyday. sometimes out of state, so be it. i love what i do. (ironworker apprentice). sure i have an iphone, but that stays in the lunch box until lunch break. and goes back in till work quits. to be honest, its a hassle in my pocket, and a distraction. i choose to put it away. though i don't see many other kids my age doing the same....its the generation before us that ruined my generation. spoiled the crap out of their kids.to the OP, its weird i read the entire thread... i worked at a shop with almost the SAME issues. tools were once there, once nice. attitudes were good for some, terrible for others. boss was incredibly smart, trying to run an entire company alone (office, field, shop). not a small company either. most people were laborers and nothing more. some wanted to learn from the old guys, most didnt care. and the ones that wanted to, did to many drugs and were so hungover they couldn't retain any information.. really a shame.i can't understand why one wouldn't want to learn from experienced guys. im like a sponge. if they're willing to teach im there....in my eyes knowledge is key. so is experience but i have the rest of my life for that LOL.
Reply:Originally Posted by michandeI thought a lot about this last night.  I am probably being too hard on the kid.  There is a difference between you and this kid.  You have found your craft.  You aren't doing it because you are good at it, you are doing it because you enjoy doing it.  If you enjoy doing something becoming proficient at it comes with time.  This kid is still lost.  He is treading water in a job that he probably hates, but needs.  The reason I thought about this last night is that I talked to a friend I went to college with.  We was terrible in school.  Now he is a head chef.  It took him flunking out of college to go do something he was interested in.  Heck he has his own garden so he can put fresh herbs in foods, his own chickens, and reads cooking magazines.  He is a kitchen geek.  That is what everyone should hope to find.  Their craft.But in today's society we teach kids that they shouldn't work with their hands, they are supposed to be above that.  They are groomed to be middle management at fortune 500 company.  Not that it is a bad thing, but not everyone is built for a cubicle and not everyone can occupy the top floor.  You are absolutely correct about knowledge.  That is something that nobody can take from you.  A divorce or bankruptcy can take all your stuff, but the most valuable thing is your knowledge and is untouchable.
Reply:Originally Posted by michande... Where have critical thinking skills gone and problem solving skills gone?
Reply:Originally Posted by michandeI thought a lot about this last night.  I am probably being too hard on the kid.  There is a difference between you and this kid.  You have found your craft.  You aren't doing it because you are good at it, you are doing it because you enjoy doing it.  If you enjoy doing something becoming proficient at it comes with time.  This kid is still lost.  He is treading water in a job that he probably hates, but needs.  The reason I thought about this last night is that I talked to a friend I went to college with.  We was terrible in school.  Now he is a head chef.  It took him flunking out of college to go do something he was interested in.  Heck he has his own garden so he can put fresh herbs in foods, his own chickens, and reads cooking magazines.  He is a kitchen geek.  That is what everyone should hope to find.  Their craft.But in today's society we teach kids that they shouldn't work with their hands, they are supposed to be above that.  They are groomed to be middle management at fortune 500 company.  Not that it is a bad thing, but not everyone is built for a cubicle and not everyone can occupy the top floor.  You are absolutely correct about knowledge.  That is something that nobody can take from you.  A divorce or bankruptcy can take all your stuff, but the most valuable thing is your knowledge and is untouchable.
Reply:Ahhh pride in yourself and what you do.  I think that is getting to be a pretty rare thing.  Just look at people abusing the welfare system and happy to do.  Go watch tv and watch the reality stars trading their pride for a pocket of money.  But you are absolutely right again, everything you do has a signature of yours on it.  It should be done so you aren't embarrassed to see it go out the door.  I bet I am not the only one thinking this.   You are the kind of guy I really like working with.  I would bet your boss is happy he has you.