vertical fillet with stick..tips

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So i have been trying the vertical up fillet with 6013 stick..Consistently i just can not get the hang of it..Here are some pics of today..you can see i had a dirty slag hole at the start..If you guys could have a look and see what i could do to make it better that would be great I used 3/8 steel with 3.2 6013 on ac set at 115 amps..Can you guys put up some tips on how to do a good vertical weld..amps,angle of rod, technique, etcIvan  Attached Images
Reply:Under cut also seems to be a big problem for me on vertical up..i can literally see the puddle eating into the sides on the way up..
Reply:Pause longer on the sides, watch the puddle not the slag.REAL TRUCKS DON'T HAVE SPARK PLUGS
Reply:I don't run a lot of 6013, but have played with it a little. I build shelf first, then point the rod down slightly, and let the puddle lay on the shelf, this forces the slag down. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:My guess is you can't yet read the puddle and are trying to do "timing" patterns. That won't work with vertical. If you are getting under cut on the sides with that hump in the middle, it tells me you are doing timing patterns and can't read the puddle. I'm a bit pressed for time right now, so I'll cut and paste a few replies I've done before for others on this subject. Hopefully they won't seem to repetitive or disjointed.One of the biggest issues I've found with new welders and vertical is that they haven't yet learned to read the puddle. On flat and horizontal, they can get away with what I refer to as timing patterns. That doesn't work with vertical. If you can't read the puddle and manipulate it, you won't get far at this point.Undercut I usually find comes from them not waiting until the puddle catches up to the arc on the sides to fill. I usually tel them to pause on the side until they see the puddle catch up to the arc and then quickly swing over across to the other side and pause again until the puddle catches up and repeat. The second big issue is usually holding too long an arc length, possibly due to poor rod angle. With stick, arc length will play a big part of whats going on with the puddle. Being able to see and understand exactly what is happening with the puddle as you manipulate the rod will be critical to getting the results you are looking for. If your arc length is too long, you'll melt more material than you will fill. Someone who can read the puddle will recognize this issue and be able to tighten up to cool things off and fill more before moving on.Pay close attention to the puddle not the arc. Most newer welders watch the arc not the puddle around it. It's easier to watch this say doing a flat weld where you can concentrate on the puddle. Try and distinguish between the slag and the puddle and start to note what happens as you manipulate the rod. I prefer to do a side to side motion on vertical filets. I pause at the side and watch the puddle. As soon as the puddle catches up to the arc, I'm quickly swinging across to the other side and then waiting for the puddle to catch up again. I find "e's" a bit harder to do vertical and get the fills right. Straight vertical is tough as you have to watch both sides fill at once as you go up. There are all sorts of movements you can use to do vertical. V's, upside down V's, U's both up and down, Z's and so on. The key to all of them is that you pause on the sides long enough to fill and quickly cross the center. Remember you will cross the center two times, once going from left to right, and once come back to your start point. That means if you run a standard "timing" pattern like many try to do, you spend 2x as long in the center as you do on the sides and have a humped weld. If you read the puddle and adjust your motions based on what you see, then you end up spending as much time in the center as you do on the sides. ( you go across the center 2x as fast as most new guys normally would) At this point motions don't really matter, because you are constantly making adjustments based on what you see, and a good welder can make any of those shapes work.I usually suggest students use a Z shape or a sideways U, where they run a short horizontal across left to right, pause until the puddle catches up to the arc, then move up 1/2 a rod diameter and move back across to the starting point and pause again until the arc catches up to the puddle, move up and start the whole thing all over again.... All of this is done very fast. I demonstrate this using a very exaggerated "weave" running horizontal about 2-3" on flat plate then pausing and moving up before going back across. Otherwise most students simply can't pick up the subtle changes that happen so fast when I'm welding. I tell the students to really concentrate on what happens every time I hit the end of the horizontal pass so they can pick up what I'm looking at and "seeing".The key with stick and FC is telling whats metal and what is slag when looking at the puddle. Most times guys get "scared" of the dripping slag and either turn down the amps or go to fast. As far as settings, again if you can read the puddle, this becomes somewhat of a non issue. A good welder adjusts as needed based on what he sees, speeding up if things are a bit hot or tightening up the arc, and slowing down or lengthening the arc if things are a bit cold. If anything I usually run the same amps as flat/horizontal or maybe just a bit hotter. I find too many guys are scared of the dripping slag and want to run cold when it's usually easier to run a bit hotter. Same goes with overhead. I usually find 125-135 works well with 1/8" 7018 on the machines I run. Note different brands of rods and different machines will all weld different....No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:DSW....great information and description.  Waiting for the puddle to catch up has been my biggest problem.  "Patience, grasshopper"...I guess
Reply:Geez what I would have paid to receive that explanation and advice back in 1970-1971 when I was getting my first real trade school welding courses.We were all "taught" to time our stitches as "swing left pause- up 1/2 rod, swing right pause- up 1/2 rod, swing left pause (ad infinitum).It's very good to place emphasis on watching the puddle, but our instructors seemed to say little about watching it after we advanced from O/A to arc welding.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWMy guess is you can't yet read the puddle and are trying to do "timing" patterns. That won't work with vertical. If you are getting under cut on the sides with that hump in the middle, it tells me you are doing timing patterns and can't read the puddle. I'm a bit pressed for time right now, so I'll cut and paste a few replies I've done before for others on this subject. Hopefully they won't seem to repetitive or disjointed.One of the biggest issues I've found with new welders and vertical is that they haven't yet learned to read the puddle. On flat and horizontal, they can get away with what I refer to as timing patterns. That doesn't work with vertical. If you can't read the puddle and manipulate it, you won't get far at this point.Undercut I usually find comes from them not waiting until the puddle catches up to the arc on the sides to fill. I usually tel them to pause on the side until they see the puddle catch up to the arc and then quickly swing over across to the other side and pause again until the puddle catches up and repeat. The second big issue is usually holding too long an arc length, possibly due to poor rod angle. With stick, arc length will play a big part of whats going on with the puddle. Being able to see and understand exactly what is happening with the puddle as you manipulate the rod will be critical to getting the results you are looking for. If your arc length is too long, you'll melt more material than you will fill. Someone who can read the puddle will recognize this issue and be able to tighten up to cool things off and fill more before moving on.Pay close attention to the puddle not the arc. Most newer welders watch the arc not the puddle around it. It's easier to watch this say doing a flat weld where you can concentrate on the puddle. Try and distinguish between the slag and the puddle and start to note what happens as you manipulate the rod. I prefer to do a side to side motion on vertical filets. I pause at the side and watch the puddle. As soon as the puddle catches up to the arc, I'm quickly swinging across to the other side and then waiting for the puddle to catch up again. I find "e's" a bit harder to do vertical and get the fills right. Straight vertical is tough as you have to watch both sides fill at once as you go up. There are all sorts of movements you can use to do vertical. V's, upside down V's, U's both up and down, Z's and so on. The key to all of them is that you pause on the sides long enough to fill and quickly cross the center. Remember you will cross the center two times, once going from left to right, and once come back to your start point. That means if you run a standard "timing" pattern like many try to do, you spend 2x as long in the center as you do on the sides and have a humped weld. If you read the puddle and adjust your motions based on what you see, then you end up spending as much time in the center as you do on the sides. ( you go across the center 2x as fast as most new guys normally would) At this point motions don't really matter, because you are constantly making adjustments based on what you see, and a good welder can make any of those shapes work.I usually suggest students use a Z shape or a sideways U, where they run a short horizontal across left to right, pause until the puddle catches up to the arc, then move up 1/2 a rod diameter and move back across to the starting point and pause again until the arc catches up to the puddle, move up and start the whole thing all over again.... All of this is done very fast. I demonstrate this using a very exaggerated "weave" running horizontal about 2-3" on flat plate then pausing and moving up before going back across. Otherwise most students simply can't pick up the subtle changes that happen so fast when I'm welding. I tell the students to really concentrate on what happens every time I hit the end of the horizontal pass so they can pick up what I'm looking at and "seeing".The key with stick and FC is telling whats metal and what is slag when looking at the puddle. Most times guys get "scared" of the dripping slag and either turn down the amps or go to fast. As far as settings, again if you can read the puddle, this becomes somewhat of a non issue. A good welder adjusts as needed based on what he sees, speeding up if things are a bit hot or tightening up the arc, and slowing down or lengthening the arc if things are a bit cold. If anything I usually run the same amps as flat/horizontal or maybe just a bit hotter. I find too many guys are scared of the dripping slag and want to run cold when it's usually easier to run a bit hotter. Same goes with overhead. I usually find 125-135 works well with 1/8" 7018 on the machines I run. Note different brands of rods and different machines will all weld different...
Reply:Are you welding vertical up or down? Most rods with heavy flux like 6013, 7014 and 7108 you generally weld vertical up and gravity keeps most of the flux off the puddle. 6010/11 can be run vertical up or down..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWAre you welding vertical up or down? Most rods with heavy flux like 6013, 7014 and 7108 you generally weld vertical up and gravity keeps most of the flux off the puddle. 6010/11 can be run vertical up or down.
Reply:Originally Posted by PaddypowerAnother thing I can't get my head around for vertical welding is rod angle!Instructors say to keep the head of the rod pushed up, I would of always thought u would keep the head of the rod down below 90degress so I'm pushing the slag down and away from the puddle?Correct me if I'm wrong !
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI think most people put way too much angle on the rod for vertical up hill welding. Almost like they are forcing it up hill.  6013 and maybe 7014, (been a long time) are the only rods I point the rod down just a touch. The slag on 6013 can make a fool of you in short order!
Reply:Originally Posted by PaddypowerWas that grove done with 6013s?