You're doing it all wrong...

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Got a Jeep project going on - the tub is a right mess with rot in all the right places.  Perfect candidate for new panels.  I've got a medium sized OA rig with 0, 2 and 5 welding tips and a tombstone arc welder.  There's a MIG welder in my future, but not in time enough for this part of the project.  Skip the TIG testimonials, I've done plenty of reading and know their benefits AND the healthy starting price.The arc welder is too hot at the lowest setting for the sheet metal, so I'm left with the OA rig.  If you were doing this, how would you tackle it?  Tip size? Braze or weld? Any other suggestions?
Reply:I say Mig weld it (I am in the same boat with a Blazer) . I have a HH140 that works great on the thin sheet metalHobart Handler 140Chinese Multi Machine
Reply:Torch will do just fine, and actually on corroded steel would be a much better choice than Mig. Cant tell you where to start with tips without knowing the torch brand as there is no "standard" for numbered tip sizes.-Aaron
Reply:Makoman -Forgot to mention that - it's a Victor knock-off.  Gentech I believe...I've also got a HD Lincoln torch (Harris) - needed a replacement acet regulator on short notice and that was the only option..but I keep it set up as a cutting torch, so it worked out pretty well.Frogman -The HH140 is what I've been eyeballing - low amperage, comes with a regulator, says it's easy to reverse the polarity - it's a few months away though.
Reply:Cut out the rusted places and make appropriate sized patches of sheet metal. Clamp securely in place if you have the room.Work with a series of tack welds and skip around alot to equalize warping. Go slow and don't overheat. Wire wheel the area and paint to suit.Dont catch your garage on fire.Lincoln PowerMig 180cVictor O/ABandaids and aspirinI don't know what I don't know!?
Reply:Put the "project" on hold until you have the proper tools and experience to do it properly.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIPut the "project" on hold until you have the proper tools and experience to do it properly.
Reply:Well if Gentec copied Victor, then a number 0 and 00 are common in for autobody work. As for aquiring skill, well that has to come through learning, self taught or otherwise. There is some good information out there to get you an idea of where you are going, through covell, kent white, and others there are videos. Other than that, get the welding skills in shape on the bench, then go from there. Personally I use all butt welds. If you dont have them, get a decent Martin cross pein body hammer and a track dolly, they will be your best friends and a good place to start. Luckily Jeeps are pretty flat and easy to work on. RG-45 filler is fine for body work. Tack welds are good, and remember the golden rule of welding, all a weld can do is shrink, and planishing stretches. So if you find that the tacks are pulling the parts together, hammer out the tacks and everything stretches back into place. Another tidbit, avoid square patches, make everything as round as possible. straight welds concentrate shrinking forces in 2 directions for more distortion. So if you have to make a square patch, round the corners. There is lots more........much more....
Reply:http://www.hoopersupply.com/tipchart.htmlGrab some sheet metal from the Junk yard and start practicing.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:if your arc welder is DC then you can tig with it and all you need is a torch and a bottle of argon
Reply:When I was young and foolish I would gas weld with any pair of sunglasses that were handy.Made the ugliest welds imaginable!Put on a pair of real welding glasses and said 'Oh look! There is the puddle!'Made all the difference.Now I have to put glasses under the glasses just to see the broad side of the barn.tractor,loader.dozer,backhoe,and all the tools to keep em movin
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Well if Gentec copied Victor, then a number 0 and 00 are common in for autobody work. As for aquiring skill, well that has to come through learning, self taught or otherwise. There is some good information out there to get you an idea of where you are going, through covell, kent white, and others there are videos. Other than that, get the welding skills in shape on the bench, then go from there. Personally I use all butt welds. If you dont have them, get a decent Martin cross pein body hammer and a track dolly, they will be your best friends and a good place to start. Luckily Jeeps are pretty flat and easy to work on. RG-45 filler is fine for body work. Tack welds are good, and remember the golden rule of welding, all a weld can do is shrink, and planishing stretches. So if you find that the tacks are pulling the parts together, hammer out the tacks and everything stretches back into place. Another tidbit, avoid square patches, make everything as round as possible. straight welds concentrate shrinking forces in 2 directions for more distortion. So if you have to make a square patch, round the corners. There is lots more........much more....
Reply:Originally Posted by getndirtyOne last thing - someone said put the project on hold until I have the right tools - I'm pretty sure body-work was done without the assistance of MIG/TIG at some point, so unless I'm missing some manual/power tool or tip/filler rod/????, I've got a good chunk of the right tools, I just need the skills and a point in the right direction.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Thats the right attitude. And what do you mean WAS used? Its preferred by many of the best metalworkers in the world. Many times people seem to like to use tools as a crutch, and excuse. Craftsmanship is in the hands and mind of the person, and as long as the equipment is correct and functioning, thats all thats needed. As for your repair in specific, throw some pictures up when you get that far. There are times I will drill out spot welds, and use rosette welds to replace the part. Or it might be a combination of butt welding, rosettes, and ??? in the same part.
Reply:Torch welding was used for some really "hardcore" repairs back in the day! Check out some of the books archived here. They are free to download, and go into considerable detail. Here's the "acetylene welding" search string. Check out "railway shop" etc for even more info.http://www.archive.org/search.php?qu...lene%20weldingI usually download the .pdf, but when those aren't scanned well, I download the djvu file and use a (also free) djvu viewer. http://djvu.org/resources/(Go to the "All Files HTTP" link' on the left, then right-click "save as" to save the djvu file rather than just view it.)This one's a great read on automobile welding repair. The equipment isn't all that different today and there is no reason the techniques wouldn't work. http://www.archive.org/details/autom...ldin00dunhrichLast edited by farmall; 07-07-2010 at 11:56 AM.
Reply:Wow!  See ya'll in a few months! That's a great resource - I'll definitely be downloading a few this evening and spending some time reading. Originally Posted by farmallTorch welding was used for some really "hardcore" repairs back in the day! Check out some of the books archived here. They are free to download, and go into considerable detail. Here's the "acetylene welding" search string. Check out "railway shop" etc for even more info.http://www.archive.org/search.php?qu...lene%20weldingI usually download the .pdf, but when those aren't scanned well, I download the djvu file and use a (also free) djvu viewer. http://djvu.org/resources/(Go to the "All Files HTTP" link' on the left, then right-click "save as" to save the djvu file rather than just view it.)This one's a great read on automobile welding repair. The equipment isn't all that different today and there is no reason the techniques wouldn't work. http://www.archive.org/details/autom...ldin00dunhrich
Reply:Originally Posted by getndirtyHa! I was thinking of OA and coat hanger repairs when I typed that.  I'm a huge fan of the right tool for the right job, but sometimes even the right tool isn't worth $hit if you don't have the skills to get it to perform like you need it to.  Let's talk about hand cutting off-angle mortise and tenon joints for a reproduction Stickly Morris chair - I'm comfortable doing that, but I spent a few months learning that skill (not mastering, just learning).Thanks for the vote of confidence.  If I don't have anything to add to the conversation, I try to keep my mouth shut (that's a tall order) - saying it can't be done that way and not offering an alternative idea is just poor form.I'll grab a few shots of the rust bucket this evening and put them online.
Reply:I also started body work with O/A, but my experience was that MIG (even with a really cheap unit)  works better.  Any time you heat metal up, especially when it stays hot for a while, you increase the chance that it's going to rust, badly.  This is especially bad when you can't get to the backside of the welded repair and the rust really gets going if it hasn't been treated. That, and the chance of warping the panels is why I stopped using o/a for body work.Personally, I have tack welded steel repair panels with my stick welder by using the smallest rods available and not being too heavy on the amp setting.  You can do almost anything with stick if you are experienced and careful.My preference for this type of auto body repair is MIG.  You can get a cheap little MIG unit at Harbor Freight and use some gas core wire and you will get nice strong welds and the panel won't get heated as badly as with gas, and rust won't be as big a problem on the backside.  I wouldn't try to weld anything over 1/8" thick with one of those 110v HF MIGS, but they work very well on body patch panels. My first MIG welder was a little Italian SIP machine that had feeding problems from day one, but the $90 HF with .020 wire turned out to be better for panel work.  Best of luck on your projects.DougMiller Syncrowave 350Millermatic 252/ 30A spoolgunMiller Bobcat 225g w/ 3545 spoolgunLincoln PowerArc4000Lincoln 175 Mig  Lincoln 135 Mig Everlast 250EX TigCentury ac/dc 230 amp stickVictor O/AHypertherm 1000 plasma
Reply:DATx and Sundown have the best two opinions, not saying to put it on hold though, their is still alot of prep.Sandblasted rust and put into some weld thru primer, you need clean metal, otherwise you spend to much time w/OA.The jeep has lots of flat panels when they warp they begin to run away on you with OA, and you end up chasing them all the way around the rig, then filling them.The reason for migs is because of HSS cannot be welded with OA, the haz has become so large that the benfits are lost when you turn everything back to mild steel.Insurance companies realized that OA bodywork on prior repair was secondary damage on any new accident and costing to much to get what would normally be a routine repair correct.I know it is easy to talk when you have the equipment.Try buy a good used mig, a unispotter stud welder off ebay($150.00) for anything you cannot access to pull straight.Consider bonding agents in some rust prone areas.Use your oxy-acetylene torch on dime sized shrinks to get control of your sheetmetal.Might have to drop down to 00 tip size to keep your OA heat down and stop that torch spitting and popping.If you gotta use what you have.Consider getting a better tub.Primer all bare metal with organic zinc of zinc chromate primers.Good Luck.
Reply:i use to o/a weld on cars to repair body rot with wire coat hangers to fill or weld the area. then grind it and get a bunch of lead soldier and drip it on top (high build) go back over it with a air file to smooth it and prep for paint (better than bondo).good luck
Reply:Since when did Jeep use HSS in its bodies?? Especially older models? Everything in life is a trade off, you get more shrinkage with O/A, but a softer weld that can be worked out easily. Mig causes less shrinkage ( not less stress, just shrinkage ), but typically the bird poop welds require grinding and tend to harden the metal. Pick your evil. When you want to start talking weld strength.......well thats a lost cause. You either have annealed base material, or a series of tacks, cold starts, inadequate penetration etc. Unless someone has REAL test data that says one process is better than the other for strength in these applications Id love to see it. So far not one regulating body in the matter I have talked to has such information.
Reply:MIG has been suggested by a few friends and I've seen it on here as well.  I've also heard what Makoman said - the weld beads are harder to work back down to flush compared to OA.  Frankly, the thought of using an older technology to do the body work is appealing.  I've got access to a MIG through a friend, all I have to do is fill the bottle and replace the wire that I use - pretty cheap entry fee if you ask me.I grabbed some 16 gauge this weekend and practiced a little - everything finally wound up in the round file.  I'll grab some more this week and try again - butt joints are going to be the toughest.  Seems like if I heat the edges up to just before the point that they'll fuse, back off for a fraction of a second and then introduce the filler, the weld holds and I don't leave a trail of holes.  Hard to explain - but the rhythm almost feels like a weaving motion with a slight pause right before the filler is introduced.  That and everything seems to need to happen at double-time on the thin stuff.One last thought - a new(er) tub would be the smart way to go, but I can practice on this one all I want and not worry about it.  If I totally destroy it, I can scrap it and get the new(er) one.  Nothing like a no-stress practice environment.The rust bucket:Anyone digging through the pics will see a cameo of the 74 cj5 in much better shape with some "test" paint on it - and notice that I'm already painting body parts on the '75...don't kid yourself, that's one coat of Rustoleum enamel - call it Yard Nazi Camouflage.Last edited by getndirty; 07-12-2010 at 01:18 PM.
Reply:I think where people are getting into trouble with distortion, is either not putting the welds in the right place, not tacking enough, or some other habbit. Tack lots, every inch, sarting at one end of the seam towards the other. Sometimes "bumping" each tack with the hammer and dolly is good as it keeps the panels from pulling together as you go. The tacks will prevent the panels from pulling on top of each other. Also weld from the center out towards the ends of the seam if you can. If its a rectangular patch, weld opposiite sides ( i.e. top, bottom, right, then left ). When you get done welding, the patch, use the hammer and dolly just along the weld itself. It stretches the shrunken area and like magic almost all the distortion goes away ( since you just reversed the cause of it ). Ideally OA welds on body work are flat, and once worked (planished) with the hammer and dolly, little to no griding it required before a light touch of filler and primer. Making holes in test welds is good, lets you know your close to having it down. Sheet welding is like making and then filling the hole. Usually at first thats what it seems like, as you get morse practice the hole making and filling happen at the same time and you litereally walk a "kayhole" accross the seam. When you are working on corroded steel use a 1x reducing flame on the torch, it helps consume surface oxides, and adds lost carbon back into the surface of the steel to promote corrosion resistance.Good Luck!!-Aaron