under bidding projects and plain ol getting taken advantage of

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So my low budget welding table has been on the back burner 'till i could come up with some cash for the table top. In the meantime i have done a few welding side jobs to generate revenue,  I just want to ramble about a few things before i post  my current project. if you dont mind.So bare with me.  Mostly about bidding projectI have an ongoing client (my best friend). He has an original 66 shelby hertz car which his dad raced before passing, and also a  replica he is building for an upcoming race in the virginia city hill climb. It will be his first race, and it is on his bucket list, to follow in his fathers footsteps. So i was privileged to help. So far i have welded everything from the pan hard bar, rear slider springs, cut the floor open and tucked tube through the cab to brace the subframe front to back and stitched the body to it, this allowed more clearance under the body, added these boxes at the firewall that are found only the convertible mustangs which stiffen the body up more.  strengthened his front coilover supports, strengthened his cheesy bolt in roll cage by adding more support and fully welding it, and continued the cage through the engine bay to the spring perches and down to front of the subframe. Theres more i'm forgetting. But the detail, time, and $ that is going into this mustang is beautiful.  But my time was slowly getting sucked away by the countless weekends sitting in his garage, eating up my consumables and time.  i was ok with it.He paid ok, he insisted on paying. All i took was what i thought would cover the gas/wire i had used up.  I think i had probably about 40 + hrs into it at this point and i felt it was on me.Since then i have done small projects for him like welding seat brackets, building him solid motor mounts, and a bunch of various other things. All which i leave it up to him to name his price. He understands  that welding is a skill that most don't have. Which im affraid a lot of people don't acknowledge. My second  example is a cousin, He's a garage mechanic. Great at what he does, probably has at least three cars sitting in his driveway any given day. He took on a project to replace a trunk pan on a 65 Nova that was all rotted out. He isn't a welder. He had it all prepped and ready to go. Of course i get the call " i need your welder". I hate this. But he's my cousin so i let him take it. I go over later on and see he has 40% done, and its a bunch of birdsh*t welds, that "will hold and be fine". Ok. He asks if i want to give it a whirl. I do, blow through it in 2 hours. looks great.  Punch line, He's scoring $1400 off the project, and me $0... i hint that gas and wire isn't free, nor is my work. He avoids the subject and says well how much do you think that was worth... again how to bid? i say what do you think... answer ; maybe $20. Thats right, he's a mechanic with all the knowledge, and my welding skills anyone can do.  Never was paid and i get my welder back with less gas and wire.  ... on top of that i had to go pick my welder up, and when i did i got the attitude. Weird. Now for my post! sorry for the book, Here's a classic underbid. A friend calls and wants all the body wholes filled on his 66 dodge, all the emblems and molding holes. On the phone it was 25 holes... i think 20 little holes, 25 bucks.. not considering once again i have to load my welder up (which isnt the easiest task), time , and consumables. I get there and there were 40-50 holes. Some up to 3/8"!... my jaw dropped. He laughed and said he'd take care of me. Long story short, worked 6-12 day one, and 6-2 day two. when it came down to payement  i gave the what do you think its worth line. and how many hours you think i have into it .. he goes maybe 8 @ $20 and gives me $160. I'm okay with it , its my bad for not giving a rate.  but i need some advice on how yall bid!  Im thinking about $50 just to show up,especially if its dragging my lincoln 215 around.  No one borrows my welder from now on , Just trying to figure how to work the Gas and wire and a decent hourly rate.. what ya think? So far all the money i manage to make goes right back into the machine and fuel for my truck and im maybe left with enough to buy a slimjim and a 6 pack.  Enough of my whining already ...heres the latest project, which was fun when using a lincoln  215 with .045 wire!
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Reply:lj408,Well, its sounds like your heart's in the right place. But not for business. Obviously you are like most human beings I have met (myself included) willing to lend a hand and help out a friend or relative. Nothing wrong with that. I do it all the time and am glad to do it. But, the other side of the coin is that it is also human nature to take advantage of deals, bargains and good natured people. If you give it away, people are going to take it. Bottom line. What is your time worth? If you can't answer that fundamental question for yourself you are never going to be able to bid a job correctly and like most people, will develop a serious resentment towards those that are trying to get something for nothing. There are lots of previous threads about bidding jobs and figuring costs so I won't repeat what's already here. I do know that I also struggle with pricing a job for friends and family. So, I have a normal rate and a "nephew" rate and I stick to them. Its always better to turn down a job than to risk ruining a good friendship over the outcome. Also, there's a good reason why many will caution against going into business (or taking a substantial amount of work from) either close friends or family. Many people will say that they understand that "its just business, nothing personal" but when it comes down to the end of the job, they still want it for free.Good luck. Eric
Reply:Hello LJI am not a welder but am a builder ( general contractor ) in Australia, I'm thinking the bottom line is do you want to be paid for your work ( at a fair rate ) or do you want to " help " your friends and rellies. If it is the former then you need to work on a cost per hour for your inputs, did someone give you the welder? do you want a new one? how about a work vehicle?? is it your full time job?, yes to any of the above WILL mean you have to serious about what you charge. If you just want to help your friends then you can charge less, but, if you feel you want to be recompensed for your costs, again you need to work out your costs. My experience was that if you run a business you can offer your friends a discount, but, it is rarely if ever received with thanks. Usually it is with some sense of entitlement that " they " think they are due your time and money.I got out of the habit of " helping " friends ( what really did it for me was to be asked to help but when some real building work was to be done I wouldn't be asked to quote or if I was the free work counted for nothing ) but did find that charging everyone meant I paid my bills and " they " were happy.Final story - I once lent a Ramset gun ( uses a 22 charge to drive a hardened pin into steel or concrete ) to a friend to " help " one of his friends, the " friend " ( a motor mechanic ) thought the $1.00 per I wanted for the pin ( $0.76 ) and the charge ( $0.24 ) was a rip-off, so he paid me nothing, never lent tools again after that. ( and thought little of mechanics too )Ed
Reply:With any discipline, welding, construction, computer repair, etc. it can help to use a checklist to build your bids until you are familiar enough with the process to do it in your head.This list needs to be yours, but try something like this:1. Travel time to job (many use a flat rate but set a travel distance limit) - say $702. Consumables (don't forget grinder wheels, saw blades, gas, electrode), + 20% markup (it took you time to get them and store them)3. Time "working", say $25/hr4. Materials, get an actual quote on the steel - allow for some waste5. Specialty changes (e.g. unusual task that requires special tools/skills)Add items 1-5.The magic part is sticking to the bid.  When the scope of the job creeps - your bid changes or you don't do the work.  You have to be nice, but clear and firm about what you are doing and how much it will cost.  Above all you must be prepared to walk away from a job if it doesn't fit the bid - this is the only way to avoid loosing money.A lot of guys loose money on each job and think they can make it up in volume - all they end up doing is multiplying their losses.  Be careful about the bid - take your time to actually put the estimate together and then stick to it.Hobart LX235Victor 250 Oxy-Acetylene Rig (welding and cutting)Bobcat 773F-350, 1999, 4x4, 16' 10K# trailerOutdoor Wood Burner - 10 cords/year
Reply:I am not the best example, but I learned my lesson welding on a riveted john boat that was only going to take an hour, it took several hours, and I lost my butt!  I sat down and figured out how much I needed to break even for one hour.  My expenses are lower than most people, because I drive a Scion XB and pull a small trailer.  If I travel and weld I need a minimum of $75.00 for the first hour, and then I adjust accordingly if it takes 3 hours I would just charge $50.00 an hour.  I have a floating rate, if the job is easy $40.00 - $75.00 an hour for more difficult (tig) jobs.I have learned that customers always say its a small job, and I have only had one actual small job.I do give a quote for the job before I start.I mark up materials 35%-50% because it takes 2 hours for me to purchase steel, to and from my home.Sometimes you have to read people and maybe quote them higher if they are going to be more trouble than they are worth.Welding lenses, grinding disc, cut off wheels, soapstone, safety glasses, consumables, welding wire, welding rods, etc add up very quick.  This eats into your profit.I do not mind helping out a friend at all.  I have two friends if they needed my I would not charge.  If it took me a week I would not charge them.  They have been there for me in some hard times, and rescued me from hurricane katrina.  Welding for them would be the least I could do, but these two friends are the best friends you can find in life, and I am lucky to have them as friends.  You have to look at the friendship.  If someone asks me about welding, I tell them how much I have invested, and that it is a business.I personally stay away from body work, because that takes way too much time, and few people are willing to pay your hourly rate. A guy called me last week for some type of body swap, I told him I am not a body man.
Reply:Originally Posted by gwileyWith any discipline, welding, construction, computer repair, etc. it can help to use a checklist to build your bids until you are familiar enough with the process to do it in your head.This list needs to be yours, but try something like this:1. Travel time to job (many use a flat rate but set a travel distance limit) - say $702. Consumables (don't forget grinder wheels, saw blades, gas, electrode), + 20% markup (it took you time to get them and store them)3. Time "working", say $25/hr4. Materials, get an actual quote on the steel - allow for some waste5. Specialty changes (e.g. unusual task that requires special tools/skills)Add items 1-5.The magic part is sticking to the bid.  When the scope of the job creeps - your bid changes or you don't do the work.  You have to be nice, but clear and firm about what you are doing and how much it will cost.  Above all you must be prepared to walk away from a job if it doesn't fit the bid - this is the only way to avoid loosing money.A lot of guys loose money on each job and think they can make it up in volume - all they end up doing is multiplying their losses.  Be careful about the bid - take your time to actually put the estimate together and then stick to it.
Reply:I always make sure and let the other guy know that my bids are estimates and many times stuff changes the bid some.Like say a guy will want a single stainless exhaust on his car and asks how much. Without seeing the car I ask how many bends are in the stock exhaust and figure from there. If they say there are 5 bends in the exhaust I figure there are at least 7, figure each bend cost me $20 so I charge $25 = $175 for bends. At least 5' of strait pipe at $15 a foot, I charge $20 = $120 for the strait. At least a bottle of gas, $45, consumable wire and whatnot I normally don't worry about because it never exceeds $20. So $175 for bends $120 for strait and $45 for gas = $340 for materials (they sometimes pick out and buy their own muffler(s), resonators, cans). What I normally do then is just double the price for the quote and tell them the quote is within $50-$100 of the final price because surprises sometimes come up.
Reply:it is a progression of skills that need to be added. first you learn to lay a bead. then you wanna make something but it must be planned, designed, pieces  procured,measured  cut hammered sanded tweaked and cursed...more skills. then someone says they wanna buy it from you..pricing, yet another skill....
Reply:The reason why only 1 in 7 business make it through their first year is people "expect" to make money on every job in the beginning. When I started, I made a profit of like $3,000 my first YEAR! That was net, and I only bought 1 welder (MM210, I had an old tombstone). When I do jobs for friends, it goes 2 ways for me. Either I will do the job and expect to not get anything at all from the start (just welding stuff like you welding the holes in the car, no materials), or not do the job. It is normally up to the "guy doing the work" to keep the friendship happy.If you are just starting out in side business, I would not expect you to provide $50/hr for work. To me, that's crazy because you have no insurance, no real tools, and no real experience, so that totals the job taking longer, and less quality (in theory) then if I were to hire an established company. If a normal company said 50/hr + travel time @ rate, and 25% mark-up on materials (based on how far you have to go). I would say your rates would be $20-25/hr, $25 travel time total, and 25% mark-up.If you think that your not making any money at these rates, as long as you are a "side business" then you will be 6 in 7 that fail! You always have to think about how else can your customer go to get this job done.
Reply:Ask your friends to go get at least 1 estimate from a reputable welder first, then you have a better objective starting point to discuss your terms.No one can take advantage of you without your permission. Lastly, I never lend out tools.....Period.
Reply:I've been in the exact same spot as everyone has mentioned.  The way I got myself out of that spot is by setting some new rules.  True friend = couple bucks for me + materials + beerI charged a friend $50 for fuel and rod to help weld fence for 6 hrs one Saturday.  I didn't make money but now he owes me a solid and is the type to repay it.Friend of a friend = customer @ shop rate $75/hr + material + 35% markup, full fab shop, taxes, insurance, etc. that has to be paidKeep it simple, you know who your friends are, everyone else is a customer.If you don't have a rate yet, SET ONE, even if this is side work for you.  Charge markup on material, how much is up to you (you have to pick it up and pay out of pocket).I could be wrong on anything above, but I know I can stay at home and go broke!
Reply:First off, Ive lived in this place for 36 years. and pretty much know all my neighbors. so I charge some people and some I don't and the reason is I charge the ones that believe that its possible to get something for nothing from a friend. The ones I don't charge are the ones that fill my woodshed or bring me fresh veggies in the fall or take me out to dinner every now and then. There is a lady that raises horses and works at a veterinarian's office I fix her car she fixes my cat, I fix her solar system she buys me booze. People that take care of me get taken care of. One of my Oldest friends I charge every time because he values his life in dollars. Another friend I never charge because we do whatever it is together.   Mac
Reply:What I need to know before I can answer is this:Are you licensed, bonded and insured, or as required in your area to conduct this type of work?Are you operating this to be a business? Or are you just a guy with some skills and equipment out meeting folks and generally just enjoy welding as a hobby?
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardWhat I need to know before I can answer is this:Are you licensed, bonded and insured, or as required in your area to conduct this type of work?Are you operating this to be a business? Or are you just a guy with some skills and equipment out meeting folks and generally just enjoy welding as a hobby?
Reply:I ran an electrical contracting business for some years so I know all about how to price jobs but in your situation I have a different way of looking at it. If someone wants me to spend my time off doing work for them I consider how much I would make spending that time working for an employer. If they are not willing to pay me something similar ( taking in to account my costs) then I'll choose to work for a boss instead.   One of the things I've learnt is if you don't put a value on yourself then nobody else will either ( hence the attitude from the cousin)
Reply:One of the things I've learnt is if you don't put a value on yourself then nobody else will either ( hence the attitude from the cousin)
Reply:I'm in business.  A "friend" is one who will respect that and not expect my work to be free.  Immediate family gets whatever they need at no charge UNLESS it's something they're doing for profit.  One of my brothers owns a sign shop and they're always bringing frames, posts etc by the shop to be fit up and welded.  I charge him like any other customer but do give him a break of about 20%None of my buddies are going to help me make payroll, taxes, insurance or other overhead and none of them have anything I need that I'm not willing to pay for.If you're a hobby guy and are dong this for kicks, then by all means.  I'm a business man and here to make a profit.  $25 bucks an hour would put me bankrupt real quick.
Reply:LJ , my philosophy on loaning tools is like my one on loaning money i tell people i don't loan money that's what banks are for "I've been screwed before and learned my lesson" . on tools i say" i don't like to loan my tools out  "on the flip side of that i don't ask to barrow money or anybodies tools . as for the cousin  for the sake of keeping piece in the family keep that in your memory bank and "now you know why i don't loan my tools out" now you have a good reason not to loan yours out . i have a cousin that can weld pretty good and he used to do allot of welding for me and my  brothers and i could tell he was getting tired of doing it so that's when i took up welding . for the friends if you  consider each other  good  friends  then you should respect the guys time and him yours  and shouldn't have a problem with paying or trading to make each other happy .the people that expect something for nothing all the time are not friends .stay away from those guys the will just use you up . i know a guy kinda like  that and when you ask him to do something NO WAY IN HELL would he do it for free he has bills to pay ! I'll tell you how i handle those guys don't deal with them at all no matter  how much money they have they always try to get something for nothing!    good luck chris
Reply:Mates rates suck !I painted my whole brother inlaws house. Took me about 1 week and I did it for FREE, being family and all.When it came time to do some tiling in my house I called on him, again and again, and again. Reluctantly he finally came and did the tiling for me. Took about 12 hours to complete. Then out comes the hand for payment - WTF !!!!  I ended up paying him $500 cash, and he then had the gall to say "If I was doing this job for a customer I would have got $1,000"Never again Jose !!I don't care if god almighty comes along now, the rate is the going rate at the time as for any other tradesman, take it or leave it !
Reply:Gee, it sounds like several folks in this thread have met my loser of a brother. Sad, but true.Like JoeDirt, I usually tell someone to find out what it would cost to have it done by someone else, then I give them a break on the price for the same work. That makes them happy, and I don't get taken advantage of.PapaLincoln Idealarc 250 (circa 1962)Lincoln Weldpak 155 w/Mig KitLincoln Squarewave TIG 175
Reply:heh ....I do a/c work and it amazes me how many old friends that you havent heard from in years call you when there a/c breaks...starts out with small talk then its ...so do you think you could take a look at my a/c? its not working .... having done this for years and getting paid with a few beers for sometimes a few hours work  I tell them how much it would cost if they called the shop ....including the trip charge ... then say how bout half that....plus any parts, normally followed with I dont have any cash. I tell em check will work need me to hold it a week orso no problem. sometimes they cut me a check or suddenly find the cash or tell me their wife has the check book at any rate, what I do i do to pay the bills and put food on the table for my family, i dont do it for free anymore, you shouldent either,family is is free labor they pay for parts...remember charity starts at home!!
Reply:i dont loan out my welder, plasma cutter, or tig welder..  my brother called me about a month ago and asked me if he could borrow my welder, i hated to tell my brother no but i also asked him if he had a $1000 to replace the welder if something happened to it.  he got the point..tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:Originally Posted by eyspyMates rates suck !I painted my whole brother inlaws house. Took me about 1 week and I did it for FREE, being family and all.When it came time to do some tiling in my house I called on him, again and again, and again. Reluctantly he finally came and did the tiling for me. Took about 12 hours to complete. Then out comes the hand for payment - WTF !!!!  I ended up paying him $500 cash, and he then had the gall to say "If I was doing this job for a customer I would have got $1,000"Never again Jose !!Originally Posted by joedirt1966I would have said you can take what I owe you for your time and labor out of what you owe me for painting your house you ungrateful SOB.  Imagine the stunned look you would have gotten when you told him he still owes you the difference!
Reply:I tell my friends and neighbors the same thing.  "I will help you cut your grass, paint your house, I'll come get you if your stranded some where, but if I have to put on my hood you have to pull out your wallet. This is how I pay my bills and take care of my family."  They understand.Last edited by woodweld1; 07-20-2011 at 04:21 PM.
Reply:I can't help with the bidding part,but I do have the answer for the tool loaning thing. The sign in the top of my Roller cab says"The only two things dear in life are the tools of the trade and the dear little wife.So don't ask to borrow my tools and I wont ask to borrow your wife."
Reply:I love welding for my friends cause they normally try to pay me more then I would normally bill.. Generally I don't or try not to take it and just call it a favor, but for the most part I wouldn't be friends with the kind of  people who expect stuff for free.
Reply:First the word Friend is not something to throw around, You need to know the difference between friend and aquaintance, I am almost 50 and have made maybe 4-6 friends in my lifetime. You know when you need help they are there , on time, no excuses or expectations. The people you are quoting, have they and will they be there for you? If so you eat it and get it back some other way. As for a guy who does not weld, does not have a welder and takes on $1400 in weld and Fab work with your machine and labor, you better look at him real hard. Do not, I said, Do not loan your tools if you don't borrow tools. I buy a lot of tools so I don't have to borrow , That entitles me to say no when asked and I don't have to give a reason. Qoute: " l'll give you a price, a fair price, but a price"  you make that price on your terms for family, Friend, customer. My book, Good, I said Good, family members don't get charged."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Just charge everyone. Its easier that way.
Reply:I might get tired and I might get hungry, but I,m not gonna be tired and hungry!
Reply:Thanks for all the insight guys! i have tried making a stand lately, im just trying to get a feel for an hourly rate i should charge. I mostly weld as a hobby. And all my work is word of mouth , through my network of friends.  Im a pipefitter by trade, but in this economy i have been on the bench going on 6 months. I just bought a house and i need extra revenue. About the friend thing someone mentioned, you are correct, there are friends and there are acquaintances. The guy with the mustang is a great friend, who would be there for me through thick and thin.. no matter what. That is why i expressed how i had so much work put into the job and was satisfied with doing it on the house. I never asked for compensation , and he never once let me go home a day without at least $100 in my pocket. As far as the lending tools go , that has been stopped. The breaking point was when a guy asked to borrow my 4-1/2" grinder. It took a **** on his watch, I know i got a lot of use out of it and waived the offer to replace it, but the breaking point was when i had a nice shiny new one still sitting in its case without even being plugged in and guess who comes along asking to borrow it... "hey man, if you need a tool more than once, maybe you ought to think about investing in one" No more! I was curious today about the job i posted in this thread, so i called around to about 5 shops, strictly welding and grinding smooth, no body work, no paint.  Bids ranged from 600-1200.  So im gonna sit down and make myself a list for bidding, that and i'll have the client get at least one quote, "so they know im not ripping them off"
Reply:my favorite is when you weld something for free and they dont like the paint that it mesed up a couple inches fron the bead.......
Reply:Family and friends will take advantage of you if you let them and it will continue to get worse over time as you have experienced with your cousin.  Your a professional just as your cousin is and he would pop a rivet if you had him fix your truck by say replacing the throttle body and fuel pump and only paid him $30 knowing that the hourly labor rate is $70 - $90 and the parts run $400+.  In the instance of your cousin you helped him pocket a chunk of change yet got nothing out of it and fixed his crap work up.  $50 show up diagnostic service call, $50 remove the bad welds, $180 for 2 hours of labor, $20 for consumables/gas add it all up and thats $300 that you gave away.  Its one thing to fix your mothers hundred year old antique gas lamp because its a personal item but when you help your cousin to make money and not even get a thank you but instead get an attitude then thats when you know how that family member see's you.It's not a bad thing to have set rates for your close friends so long as they know and understand that you are charging them less than the going rate and that they should not abuse it.  I would not find an issue with charging for the cost of the consumables and truck fuel plus an hourly rate and leave some business cards with them to hand out.Welding Supervisor Department of Corrections.