Need help on Inverter vs Transformer TIG...

admin

Please feel free to direct me to any other discussions on this topic. I did some searching but did not find any recent info on the topic...I'm looking to replace my '96-ish Lincoln SquareWave 255 Transformer machine. It's been good, but I may have an opportunity to pick up a new machine at a great price. Plus, I'm moving 1000 miles away and it'd be great to not move it.I'm looking at the equivalent Lincoln Precision Tig 275 (so I can get the optional pulser unit, one more sophisticated than the stock built-in pulser) and also Lincoln's Inverter machines. It appears that their Ivertec 205 has a more basic pulser with no available upgrade. The Invertec 311 looks like it has a fully-adjustable pulse unit, but the details are lacking on their site.I'm going to be using the machine for Bicycle frame building (.025-.040 steel, mainly) and some automotive and farm usage. Great performance at lower amperages is most important. I will be doing some aluminum, too.I'm interested in feedback from anybody who has time in on both types of machine.Thanks!
Reply:I'm very happy with my TA300 acdc but it's expensive. From what you say your going to do the TA 185 or 200 for about 2k might do ya. Got pulse built inGood luckG
Reply:Didn't they stop making the 311??Miller Dynasty 700Miller 350P with Aluma-pro push-pullMiller 280 Dynasty with expansion card Dynasty 200 DXMigMax 215 Enuff power and hand tools to create one of anything..... but mass produce nothing!!!
Reply:How about this.  Buy a Dynasty 200DX.  That has all the features you'll ever need.  Make sure you get the one with "Blue Lightning" for better control of the starts.   Its more than enough for thin wall tubing.Don't get so hung up on a feature by feature comparison.  For example, while there are plenty of places that will tell you what each of the settings do (at least in theory), none of the places even talk about how to optimize the settings or even a good starting point on the settings.  For aluminum, they all say - 75% duty cycle, 120Hz.   Which is basically what the Miller Diversion does out of the box.Bottom line, it will take a lot of trial and error to really understand all the various settings and how they affect the weld.  The different waveforms might help you punch through anodizing - or maybe even oxidation.  I don't know, I clean the joints.  On DC, pulsing does give the puddle a chance to freeze, maybe better if you welding upside down.  High speed pulsing is supposed to focus the heat - I say supposed to because on 16 gauge stainless, the HAZ looks pretty much the same (pulsing up to 400Hz).AFAIK, only inverters will pulse faster than say 25Hz.The Dynasty 350 allows a little more control over AC welding - like different currents for negative and positive swings.  (Allows a slightly smaller electrode - sharper point - about as close to DC welding as you can get).  Its a lot more cash though.If you think you might need to do heavier stuff, keep your old machine.As for Miller vs. Lincoln vs whatever.  They are all decent enough machines.   A miller 200DX current resale value is about $2200 on Ebay.  So its a pretty safe investment (that's what I tell my wife).Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:It's so cool that you make bicycle frames.  I am an avid bicyclist, I hope to some day make bicycle frames myself.  I've wondered many times on how to make a frame, I know how to fit up pipes, but I imagine there being a few tricks to the idea.  Where are you from?Inverters vs transformer is an interesting question, I am surprised there wasn't more posts.  When I first started looking into welding, I read that a lot of people scoff at inverters, they seem to believe they are junk or something.  I have come to the conclusion that they seem to work great.  As you seemed to hint at, they weigh dramatically less than transformer style welders.  A big bonus, if you do a lot of welding, is how much you can save in the long run in terms of how much it costs to operate it.  Inverters consume a lot less electricity than transformers do, some say that they are capable of producing a weld more quickly.  So what this means is time, gas, and electricity can all be saved by using an inverter.  It is an infallible truth that inverters use less electricity, other things might be argued, I don't know for sure.I think the rest of the differences seem to be pretty clear to you, the features are a pretty awesome step up, greater control of the arc is wonderful.  And seeing as how you may work with aluminum, it seems the benefits are slightly more exaggerated with the features often found on an inverter.If you can afford it, I'd get one tomorrow and ditch the transformer.  The only plus side, that I can see right now, to transformers is that you wouldn't have to spend anywhere near as much to get into really high amp capacities.  You can get some older transformer machines for much more affordable prices that crush inverters duty cycle unless you are willing to spend a fortune on a comparable machine.The pulse feature freakin rocks, by the way.  It makes creating the stack of dimes or ripple effect a snooze fest, they say you can also use it to help prevent warping and such, I don't know about that stuff myself.  All I know is that it seems like an awesome feature if your customer, or you, really values that stack of dimes look in a weld.There is a lot of other features that inverters seem to have standard that are priceless in my opinion, but I wouldn't begin to know how to explain them, or really even compare them other than saying, generally most transformers completely lack or fall short on these areas.Miller 330 a/bp water cooledI believe in gun control, I hold my gun with two hands.  If you want to know why, click here.Buy American or bye America.
Reply:confuse said " For aluminum, they all say - 75% duty cycle, 120Hz. Which is basically what the Miller Diversion does out of the box."Not sure if you are referring to the Diversion or the Dynasty 200 as recommended at the start of your post. The duty cycle on the Dynasty 200 is just 20% @ 200 amps.The Dynasty is nice little welder though, have been using my neighbour's recently  to do some AL welding for him and quite like it, lots of features (and lots of $).On DC I would be equally happy using either it or my DC Everlast , both are super easy to weld with.
Reply:Thanks for the replies, all!I'm a professional bicycle frame builder (NC), so it's all I do. I mentioned it because it means a lot of low-amp work. Not 5amp low, but pretty low with lots of starts, so great arc initiation (esp on steel) is really important. Of course I want the machine to handle some bigger stuff, but if I need a plow welded, I can find somebody to do it (;I bring up the pulser because the built-in pulser on my SquareWave is lousy. It only has pulses per second and the increments are too great. I also need the background current adj and  on and off % if I'm going to effectively use the pulser in my work. Right now, I manually pulse, and it's pretty difficult to nail the fill rate this way.I'm just inquiring to see if the Inverters have reached and exceeded the Transformers' performance or do they have any weaknesses that will eventually be fixed with better technology. When I first heard of them, they had no hi-freq start, so that ruled them out back then. I just want to see if now is the time.I think my connection limits me to a deal on a Lincoln. I loved the transformer Miller 350(?) machines I used a long time ago, but I've got to follow the deal...Thanks again. Y'all are good folk.
Reply:have you thought about going the gasfluxxer route &O/A instead?  I see some very nice work done this way on custom steel bicycle frames.
Reply:Originally Posted by bystickelI'm just inquiring to see if the Inverters have reached and exceeded the Transformers' performance or do they have any weaknesses that will eventually be fixed with better technology. When I first heard of them, they had no hi-freq start, so that ruled them out back then. I just want to see if now is the time.
Reply:Originally Posted by worntornconfuse said " For aluminum, they all say - 75% duty cycle, 120Hz. Which is basically what the Miller Diversion does out of the box."Not sure if you are referring to the Diversion or the Dynasty 200
Reply:bystickel, If you have a deal with Lincoln why don't you try to make arrangements to test drive the two ( transformer vs inverter) side by side and see what you think?The invertech 205 has a much higher duty cycle then the dynasty 200 but Miller points out that the 205 is limited to 170 amps above a certain ac hz frequency. With bike tubing that is not going to be an issue. My guess is that if you were handed a torch and couldn't see the brand that you were welding with you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Ken
Reply:As far as O/A goes, I just don't enjoy silver brazing (lugged construction) or fillet-brazing (low-fuming bronze). I enjoy the challenge of laying down beautiful, even beads, and the lack of post-process clean up that I get with TIG. I do use the torch for small items attached with silver.I imagine that I'd be happy with any modern machine. I just wanted to hear the latest from folks who know. I made one goof when I chose my first machine and didn't want to repeat it. I'll do what I can to get some seat time in on an inverter and to play with the controls.
Reply:By O/A brazing I was referring to this method:  http://www.gasflux.com/equipment.htmlMy understanding is that there is virtually no post process cleanup required with this method either, very similar to tig in that regard. The gasfluxer is Tee'd into  the torch hose and provides a shield gas around the O/A flame.I'm not sure of any other benefits to it, other than the appearance of the fillets which can be very nice, much larger than tig fillets. It seems to be a favourite method for a lot of custom bike builders right now, perhaps a bit of a fad.The Curtis frames are done with a Gasfluxxer O/A setuphttp://www.curtisbikes.co.uk/frames/...treet-main.jpgLast edited by worntorn; 10-30-2010 at 01:36 PM.
Reply:That aesthetic wouldn't fly in the custom mountain and road market here in the US. People want tidy welds or perfect fillets. Curtis' look is cool for BMX, where rough and industrial is accepted. (but, honestly, brazed BMX is not perceived by that market to be as strong as welded frames)I have seen really nice 'braze-like-TIG' work on frames. I wish I could braze like that, but when I already TIG...Now, gas welding... I have no idea how folks can do that.
Reply:Couple Links about Inverters- Miller thoughhttp://www.millerwelds.com/resources...Features-(Long)http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...iable-Polarityhttp://www.millerwelds.com/resources...-Applications/http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...r-performance/http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...ce-Distortion/Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by worntornBy O/A brazing I was referring to this method:  http://www.gasflux.com/equipment.htmlMy understanding is that there is virtually no post process cleanup required with this method either, very similar to tig in that regard. The gasfluxer is Tee'd into  the torch hose and provides a shield gas around the O/A flame.I'm not sure of any other benefits to it, other than the appearance of the fillets which can be very nice, much larger than tig fillets. It seems to be a favourite method for a lot of custom bike builders right now, perhaps a bit of a fad.The Curtis frames are done with a Gasfluxxer O/A setuphttp://www.curtisbikes.co.uk/frames/...treet-main.jpg
Reply:What is "Blue Lightning"?  Is the package deal with the foot control torch decent? Is it something to consider for one who is just learning TIG and won't be doing extended hours using a TIG torch?  Originally Posted by con_fuse9How about this.  Buy a Dynasty 200DX.  That has all the features you'll ever need.  Make sure you get the one with "Blue Lightning" for better control of the starts.   Its more than enough for thin wall tubing.Don't get so hung up on a feature by feature comparison.  For example, while there are plenty of places that will tell you what each of the settings do (at least in theory), none of the places even talk about how to optimize the settings or even a good starting point on the settings.  For aluminum, they all say - 75% duty cycle, 120Hz.   Which is basically what the Miller Diversion does out of the box.Bottom line, it will take a lot of trial and error to really understand all the various settings and how they affect the weld.  The different waveforms might help you punch through anodizing - or maybe even oxidation.  I don't know, I clean the joints.  On DC, pulsing does give the puddle a chance to freeze, maybe better if you welding upside down.  High speed pulsing is supposed to focus the heat - I say supposed to because on 16 gauge stainless, the HAZ looks pretty much the same (pulsing up to 400Hz).AFAIK, only inverters will pulse faster than say 25Hz.The Dynasty 350 allows a little more control over AC welding - like different currents for negative and positive swings.  (Allows a slightly smaller electrode - sharper point - about as close to DC welding as you can get).  Its a lot more cash though.If you think you might need to do heavier stuff, keep your old machine.As for Miller vs. Lincoln vs whatever.  They are all decent enough machines.   A miller 200DX current resale value is about $2200 on Ebay.  So its a pretty safe investment (that's what I tell my wife).