TIG, questions for aluminum

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Hello to all! I'm very good with MIG and SMAW, but with TIG, I started the other day.Here are several questions for TIG welding aluminum:1) when welding aluminum by TIG, butt joint, how do you estimate that there is enough penetration. How do you avoid to either burn through or to make big sinking of metal on root side?2) Do you leave some gap at butt joint for better penetration, starting from some thickness?3) I am a confused about pointing the tungsten. At some places I found that more pointed tungsten stands for better penetration, but at some places that blunt tungsten stands for deeper penetration? What does your expierence said? Or to be precise, when welding really thin sheet, 0.040", do you use very sharp angle or blunt one?4) do you have better recommendation for starting amperage for butt joints of aluminum. Common recomendation 1A=0.001" is too hot for me...5) I am using HF for starting the arc, and once, a minute after I finished with welding, I felt light electric shock when touched the welding table with bare hand... Is it common, that some electric current remains in metal to be in touch with HF arc? If so, is there some time when it escapes? In my case, the metal table is placed on concrete floor.Thanks in advance!
Reply:Originally Posted by stiv9Hello to all! I'm very good with MIG and SMAW, but with TIG, I started the other day.
Reply:Well DSW, I feel you are right, but somehow I would like to go faster. I can solve all my problem with MIG and SMAW at steels, and consider TIG to be used only on Aluminum... Therefore I am trying to skip TIG at steel and go directly to alu... Maybe, there is some ego of mine, I think I can do it, I just need some advices and following the advices with hard work, maybe I manage to do aluminum in short time...
Reply:If you have someone who can sit down and teach you alum tig, it's possible to skip steel. Theres no way I know to explain how to back off the pedal to control the heat except to have someone try with steel 1st. With steel you can see whats happening and have time to make adjustments. You need to move almost twice as fast with alum, the puddle doesn't change color so it's harder to see, and the point between running a puddle and melt thru is a lot smaller. It's sort of like trying to explain to someone how to drive a car over the phone if they don't have any instruments to give feedback. There's no way to tell them how far down to push the gas or the brake to get the right speed, especially if the car is going up and down hills. The fast way to learn alum tig is to take a class. I'll bet they start you with steel. Most do. The reason is you get from A to B faster that way. If you are learning on your own, steel is the fastest way to understand the basics of whats going on.But hey if you want to learn to juggle by starting out riding a motorcycle on your head while trying to juggle a chainsaw, bowling ball and a feather.. Go for it.Last edited by DSW; 11-07-2010 at 07:10 PM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Looks like we have another one too headstrong for his own good, and destined to learn the Hard Way...Gotta crawl before you walk, and walk before you run.  It really doesn't matter how "Good" you think you are with GMAW and SMAW.If you "consider TIG to be used only on Aluminum" well, that is your choice, but you are missing the boat on a LOT.Doug gave you Good, Sound Advice... I respectfully suggest you heed it.Later,Jason
Reply:In answer to your questions: (and since you are in a learning mode vs a production mode)1) You can tell how much penetration you're getting by looking at your welds. In learning mode you should be welding coupons. Weld some at x amperage and then look at them and try to take them apart. Then raise or lower your amperage as needed. Also, with a band saw, make a cut perpendicular to your weld and again, just look at it.2) I don't leave a gap, but I do bevel the edges of butt joints. Of course this depends on the thickness of the material. I set the A/C wave balance to Auto Balance on my Lincoln Square Wave TIG 275. I go slowly around the areas either side of the joint and I believe I'm getting better penetration that way. Again, set up your machine, do some welds and then cut them up to see what you are actually accomplishing. I find the heat penetration in the HAZ provides for very good penetration in AL.3) I always sharpen the Tn to a pencil point on a grinding wheel that I use exclusively for Tn electrode grinding. I find the point starts with a more focused arc, however, no matter how sharp you make them, the Electrode will always ball up fairly soon. To keep it focused, I try to keep it as clean as possible. I sharpen a whole box of electrodes (typically 10/box) and I weld until I need a more focused arc. Then I change the electrode. Again, welding 1/4" Al will eat up electrodes where as welding sheet you can most likely use the same electrode for quite some time.4) When starting, use the pedal to start out with a low amperage arc and move the tip around in a small circle until you get the puddle started. Then up the amperage via the pedal and then add rod.5) Everey machiune is different. I would not be comfortable with a shock of any type whatsoever, so I would have someone come by and look at that before going on too much. Are you using thick rubber soled boots and dry leather gloves and a dry leather jacket? Don't fool around with this stuff if you haven't rectified that situation ASAP,
Reply:stiv9, I don't want to discount what anyone here as said but I taught myself how to tig aluminum and I've never had any welding training of any kind.  I'm sure I'm no expert but I can tig 2 pop cans together and I've heard that's not an easy trick.  Now I'm sure the "proper way" would be to take a class and start w/ steel but if u don't have the time or the means then there's no way around that.  Time on task is the best way to get a "handle" on something.  It is possible to learn to tig aluminum w/out starting on steel or taking a class. Hey I did it.  But like I said I don't want to discount what others have said.  Sometimes other peoples advice won't work for you even if its the best advice.  Keep on pluggin away and maybe find someone close to you that knows tigging alum. that can give u pointers.
Reply:Hey Doug(DSW) & Jason(Black Wolf),Listen, you're input is really not needed, so says the OP, as he is "very good with MIG & SMAW" & "I feel you are right", but really he doesn't need any relevant data from any experienced weldors. He will be doing himself the best by simply "skipping" around. As you can see.....this is a perfect example of "an effort in futility". Maybe he & SJC can get together to share the vast knowledge base they have.DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Originally Posted by yorkiepapHey Doug(DSW) & Jason(Black Wolf),Listen, you're input is really not needed, so says the OP, as he is "very good with MIG & SMAW" & "I feel you are right", but really he doesn't need any relevant data from any experienced weldors. He will be doing himself the best by simply "skipping" around. As you can see.....this is a perfect example of "an effort in futility". Maybe he & SJC can get together to share the vast knowledge base they have.Denny
Reply:Originally Posted by yorkiepapHey Doug(DSW) & Jason(Black Wolf),Listen, you're input is really not needed, so says the OP
Reply:I started in on TIG a few months ago. After stick and O/A welding for 40 years, I thought(hoped) TIG would be fairly easy to pick up.  Although the progress has been steady, it has been one of the more difficult things I've tried to learn. I would put it on par with learning to play to piano well.For me at least, learning to make a decent TIG weld has been a slow process so far.I've gotten some very good advice from this forum and from Jody Collier's site, also from Jody directly.I just started in on aluminium two days ago. After all of the hours on steel and SS, it went reasonably well doing beads on some 11 gauge aluminium coupons. I think it would have been pretty frustrating to have started in on thin  Aluminium sheets with zero experience tig welding.  In my case, I probably would have given up.But I'm not one of those people who could sit at the piano first time ever and play a perfect "Fantasie Impromptu" by Chopin.Last edited by worntorn; 11-08-2010 at 11:05 AM.
Reply:First of all let me say that I meant no disrespect in my comments here.  Obviously there is a reason classes and instruction and skill building over time.  I wasn't trying to say "forget what these guys say".  I was just trying to tell stiv9 that what he was trying to accomplish was not impossible.  If stiv9 is anything like me then life hasn't afforded me the luxuries of proper schooling and systematic training.  I (and I'm sure others here too) have had to work with what I've got in the time I've got.  And if that means teaching myself something then so be it.  So I'm sorry if I haven't been able to take the same steps as YOU guys to get ME were I need to be.  If you read his posts he uses words like "trying" and "maybe".  He never said "screw what you guys say".  Guys like you with knowledge and experience are the reasons people sign on to be apart of the forums.  They respect and admire your achievements and hope to gain something for having conversed with you.  Another thought: if the answer to evrey question was "Go get the proper training" then why would we need thede forums?  Everyone would already know what the needed, just a thought.  I just wanted to say I meant no disrespect.  Guys like you are the reason guys like me are on here in the first place.  To learn as best I can.  And remember just because someone can't or won't heed your advice or follow your suggestions that dosen't mean they are disrepecting you.  No one answer in best for everyone.  There's more than one way to skin a cat.  If anything they respect you thay much more for taking time out of your day to inject something into the subject (that's how I feel anyway).
Reply:Originally Posted by stiv9Hello to all! I'm very good with MIG and SMAW, but with TIG, I started the other day.Here are several questions for TIG welding aluminum:1) when welding aluminum by TIG, butt joint, how do you estimate that there is enough penetration. How do you avoid to either burn through or to make big sinking of metal on root side?2) Do you leave some gap at butt joint for better penetration, starting from some thickness?3) I am a confused about pointing the tungsten. At some places I found that more pointed tungsten stands for better penetration, but at some places that blunt tungsten stands for deeper penetration? What does your expierence said? Or to be precise, when welding really thin sheet, 0.040", do you use very sharp angle or blunt one?4) do you have better recommendation for starting amperage for butt joints of aluminum. Common recomendation 1A=0.001" is too hot for me...5) I am using HF for starting the arc, and once, a minute after I finished with welding, I felt light electric shock when touched the welding table with bare hand... Is it common, that some electric current remains in metal to be in touch with HF arc? If so, is there some time when it escapes? In my case, the metal table is placed on concrete floor.Thanks in advance!
Reply:Originally Posted by SJCFirst of all let me say that I meant no disrespect in my comments here.  Obviously there is a reason classes and instruction and skill building over time.  I wasn't trying to say "forget what these guys say".  I was just trying to tell stiv9 that what he was trying to accomplish was not impossible.  If stiv9 is anything like me then life hasn't afforded me the luxuries of proper schooling and systematic training.  I (and I'm sure others here too) have had to work with what I've got in the time I've got.  And if that means teaching myself something then so be it.  So I'm sorry if I haven't been able to take the same steps as YOU guys to get ME were I need to be.  If you read his posts he uses words like "trying" and "maybe".  He never said "screw what you guys say".  Guys like you with knowledge and experience are the reasons people sign on to be apart of the forums.  They respect and admire your achievements and hope to gain something for having conversed with you.  Another thought: if the answer to evrey question was "Go get the proper training" then why would we need thede forums?  Everyone would already know what the needed, just a thought.  I just wanted to say I meant no disrespect.  Guys like you are the reason guys like me are on here in the first place.  To learn as best I can.  And remember just because someone can't or won't heed your advice or follow your suggestions that dosen't mean they are disrepecting you.  No one answer in best for everyone.  There's more than one way to skin a cat.  If anything they respect you thay much more for taking time out of your day to inject something into the subject (that's how I feel anyway).
Reply:SJC - Don' take my little commentary to heart - I wasn't berating you, or the OP directly, I was more making a general comment regarding the new generation of "Welders" that are coming behind us.Impatient.  Want it all.  Want it now.Never said OP couldn't start on Aluminum, but the learning curve ISN'T easy.  He would be better off to start with Steel, and get comfortable with the equipment, and the technique, BEFORE trying Aluminum, but he may do as he wishes - It's no skin off my nose.BTW - Life hasn't afforded ME any luxuries either - I've had to fight tooth and nail for every inch... I guess that makes me Jaded towards the fellas that want to bypass the sweat, and the valuable lessons learned along the way.Later,Jason
Reply:Originally Posted by Black WolfBTW - Life hasn't afforded ME any luxuries either - I've had to fight tooth and nail for every inch... I guess that makes me Jaded towards the fellas that want to bypass the sweat, and the valuable lessons learned along the way.
Reply:Originally Posted by FusionKingWhat hacks me, are the guys who want me to teach them how to use their welder they just bought, so they won't have to pay ME!!!!!!!!!
Reply:Its possible to be self taught at TIG welding (yes, even aluminum) and learn to do it well.  Easier/quicker to take a class?  With a good instructor, sure I'll bet it can be quicker than reading books/other resources and doing it on your own.  With a lousy instructor, it can be a waste of time and money.  It might also give the student a misplaced sense of confidence that they believe something is the "best way", simply because "that's how we did it in school", (which can later in a career, progress to "that's how we've always done it") without actually thinking why they do it that way.  Welding instructors are only human - can make mistakes too.  I am self taught, started oxy-fuel welding, then moved on to TIG; I thought the transition was pretty natural.  I have had a whole lot of fun with all of it.  Yet my brother, who both went to welding school (in the army, a trained "Metalworker") and even passed some welding certification tests, calls me to do his welding for anything tricky.  (He's a very smart and capable guy too, moved on to currently become a helicopter pilot.)  A school class is only going to be as good as the instructor makes it.  I've met some welding instructors, that in my judgement were clearly "lacking" in some knowledge I would consider basic / important to know.  For example, I have a friend who teaches TIG welding, but still thought (and was teaching his students) that tungstens needed to always be "balled" on AC mode, even with modern inverter power sources.  There is just no replacement for "hood time", while keeping an active, learning mind frame (thinking about when you get a bad result, why it happened that way, and learning from it for next time.)
Reply:Originally Posted by jakeruIts possible to be self taught at TIG welding (yes, even aluminum) and learn to do it well.  Easier/quicker to take a class?  With a good instructor, sure I'll bet it can be quicker than reading books/other resources and doing it on your own.  With a lousy instructor, it can be a waste of time and money.  It might also give the student a misplaced sense of confidence that they believe something is the "best way", simply because "that's how we did it in school", (which can later in a career, progress to "that's how we've always done it") without actually thinking why they do it that way.  Welding instructors are only human - can make mistakes too.  I am self taught, started oxy-fuel welding, then moved on to TIG; I thought the transition was pretty natural.  I have had a whole lot of fun with all of it.  Yet my brother, who both went to welding school (in the army, a trained "Metalworker") and even passed some welding certification tests, calls me to do his welding for anything tricky.  (He's a very smart and capable guy too, moved on to currently become a helicopter pilot.)  A school class is only going to be as good as the instructor makes it.  I've met some welding instructors, that in my judgement were clearly "lacking" in some knowledge I would consider basic / important to know.  For example, I have a friend who teaches TIG welding, but still thought (and was teaching his students) that tungstens needed to always be "balled" on AC mode, even with modern inverter power sources.  There is just no replacement for "hood time", while keeping an active, learning mind frame (thinking about when you get a bad result, why it happened that way, and learning from it for next time.)