welded t joint joint for a job today. didn't go so well.

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Ok well I was out looking for a welding job since im done with welding school. I went to one shop and the guy wasn't looking for welders at the moment, but I offered to weld for him to show him I knew how. well it didn't go so well. I just welded a t-joint with a 3 bead cap, something I did a bunch of times in school. When I was in school I always would do a 6010 root, 6010 hot pass then a 3 bead 7018 to cap it off. Well this guy brings me two pieces to weld together that are literally 3/4'' thick and wants me to weld it with 7018s from the root to the cap. He tells me they can't use 6010 on metal this thick. wtf?  So I went to school to weld bevel plate to pass those tests and then this guy gives me an easy t-joint which turns out to be an epic fail, how embarrassing. Oh well lesson learned I guess. Next time I'll bring my grinder and grind the plate down nice and shiny and practice a little bit to set the temp instead of welding like a moron without checking. I thought 100 amps would be a good starting point but I guess when you're really close to the machine you don't have as much amperage loss vs at school where you have 250 feet of cable before it gets to your booth. Does it mean you're running too hot when the slag won't chip off? I don't think I've had that problem running it cold so I guess so. What do you guys think? It had been about 6 months since I had stick welded cause I had been tig welding this whole time. Maybe I should stick to tig welding. lol
Reply:Just a thought but if you have only used inverters and then tested on a transformer or vice versa they can exhibit quite different welding characteristics with identical settings.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:how do you tell if it's a machine that has an inverter or a transformer?
Reply:You might want to think about going back 'hat in hand' and tell the guy that you really messed up and would like to try again.  Then pay attention to the details and do it.John
Reply:Originally Posted by weld master 23 When I was in school I always would do a 6010 root, 6010 hot pass then a 3 bead 7018 to cap it off. Well this guy brings me two pieces to weld together that are literally 3/4'' thick and wants me to weld it with 7018s from the root to the cap. He tells me they can't use 6010 on metal this thick. wtf?
Reply:Slag qualities or lack there if can be caused by a mess of different factors. Including but not limited to: welding technique, brand of electrode, type of electrode, base metal cleanliness. For structural steel it's not uncommon to run 7018 all the way out. 6010 roots are more common with pipe, as you may know. You can almost always tell the difference between an inverter and transformer based on actual size of the unit. Look, for example, at a synchrowave versus a dynasty. The dynasty being the inverter and synchrowave, the transformer. The synchrowave resembles a monolith while the dynasty is quite small in comparison. They do burn rods differently but then again so will two different brand transformers many time. It's all about reading the puddle and knowing how to react to what it's doing.
Reply:I'm not sure if the rods were ruined from moisture but he never had them in the oven. I even pointed it out and said you don't keep them in the oven? I could run a nice bead but once the rod burned halfway down it started like sputtering and crackling and everything. It was no longer a crisp sound and that's when the weld went to crap. The rods at school were always in a oven and I didn't have that problem until the rod was almost used up.
Reply:I would find  some way to thank the guy for taking time with you.Beer drinker ?Coffee guy?Donuts for the shop.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by weld master 23I'm not sure if the rods were ruined from moisture but he never had them in the oven. I even pointed it out and said you don't keep them in the oven? I could run a nice bead but once the rod burned halfway down it started like sputtering and crackling and everything. It was no longer a crisp sound and that's when the weld went to crap. The rods at school were always in a oven and I didn't have that problem until the rod was almost used up.
Reply:Weld tests in a shop are a crap shoot.  Certainly if you know or suspect this is going to happen when you drop by and give your resume make sure you have all your gear in your vehicle.  I have seen people come in and test in their runners and shorts.   Always do a couple of test beads to dial in the machine.  I have also seen employees help people fail buy screwing with the machine settings, providing the dirtiest plate and no grinder etc etc.  I would give the guy some junk plate to check his machine and make sure the gas is turned on at the manifold etc.  My attitude was if the guy is going to fail it should be from lack of ability not because of the equipment or materials.  In some shops people become very territorial and any new guys are not welcome.
Reply:That may have been the main problem. I forgot with the 7018 rods, it's crucial that the material is clean. With the way I normally do it, the 6010 would have eaten through any millscale and it wouldn't have mattered as much. Since I started with the 7018 from the beginning no wonder it wasn't welding right. Also does it generally mean the weld is too hot if the slag won't chip off easily?
Reply:Originally Posted by weld master 23Also does it generally mean the weld is too hot if the slag won't chip off easily?
Reply:Originally Posted by lotechmanYes too hot and the flux bakes on.  The spatter next to the bead is also an indicator.  If you are beating like crazy and picking away with the point of your chipping hammer you are too hot.  The weld metal will be ok but the flux becomes a pain in the butt.  There is a sweet spot when the amperage setting is dead on and your manipulation is perfect.  The result is that the flux will peel off when cooling much like a long fingernail.
Reply:Originally Posted by weld master 23ok. Well I guess I learned something new now. So I guess for adjusting the machine, start off too hot and run beads until you see the slag practically peeling off before you even touch it with the hammer. In school I could never really get anyone to explain to me how you tell if the temp is too hot or cold and yet some people can walk over and immediately say just by looking.
Reply:You just experienced a difference between the school way of doing things and the production way of doing things in the field.  Often in the field you will have to do things creatively with inadequate equipment for bosses that just want something done as quickly and cheaply as possible. You need to learn to read the boss as well as the needs of the job.  Go back and ask to try it again and take a helper job if it is available.  You can only go up form there.  good luck
Reply:Originally Posted by weld master 23So I guess for adjusting the machine, start off too hot and run beads until you see the slag practically peeling off before you even touch it with the hammer.
Reply:that's what I was using was 1/8'' 7018.
Reply:1/8" 7018 at 100 amps?  That would be hard to run well on a fillet weld.My chart lists 110 - 165 for the amperage range.  125 is a pretty comfortable place to start and then adjust to your needs.Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:I was running it at around 100 or so and after a few minutes I said I was trying to set the amperage right and he told me he usually runs it about 105. He also said you can't go by the numbers since every machine is different. But judging by the amount of arc spatter and balls all over the plate, I think it was too hot still. I tend to weld kind of on the slow side compared to others so that gets things hot too. I agree him that each machine is different. Cause I went to two different compuses and one campus I would run it at 85-90amps and the other I would run it at about 120-130amps. It's funny cause they had the same machines, just the other schools machines were brand new.Last edited by weld master 23; 06-06-2013 at 12:00 PM.
Reply:He's right of course, machines are all different.Speed is something you can change with time under the hood.  Weld hotter, move faster. I don't think an employer would like it if you told him in an interview you weld slower than other people About a month ago I tried an experiment welding vertical up 7018 at 20-30 amps higher than I normally would.  Just pushing the limits of what I could do.My results were not picture perfect but weren't bad.  It showed me that speeding up can be done with practice.Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveHe's right of course, machines are all different.Speed is something you can change with time under the hood.  Weld hotter, move faster. I don't think an employer would like it if you told him in an interview you weld slower than other people About a month ago I tried an experiment welding vertical up 7018 at 20-30 amps higher than I normally would.  Just pushing the limits of what I could do.My results were not picture perfect but weren't bad.  It showed me that speeding up can be done with practice.Dave J.
Reply:When u test or interview ask what you can and use/do. Ask what he/she is looking for.  I would've tried to grind the mil scale off, even if I was using 6010 rods. I like welding with clean surfaces.. Also as said before, I would've ran some test stringers, adjusted amps accordingly. For 1/8 I'm at 125 to 130 amps.  Hot and fast..Also as someone mentioned, carry your tools with you when trying to land a job. This way you comfortable with your own tools, and if if it breaks, it's yours, not the owners.  No, once you get hired, pending on pay, and what not, to use your own tools is up to you..Good luck, don't get discouraged, many on here willing to post or not busted tests. It happens to the best and worst of us, more to the latter though..
Reply:Every machine and electrode brand is different.  I am always trying to force too much heat on my E 7018 and of course I find myself hammering like crazy.  The correct flux falling off heat is comparatively low and you have to pay attention to your rod manipulation because the puddle is smaller.   I was actually teaching when I noticed a very experienced "inmate" I was helping was just tapping his flux off his beads.  I started to lower my amperage also and found that sweet spot.  Actually a shame since I wanted him to start practicing pipe but he didn't have any confidence.
Reply:If its at all possible...take the guy a coffee and ask him if he would have a minute or 2 to help you with what you did wrong. A lot of guys would not go back but if you can it might just show you are willing and able to learn. Might just be a good thing.Regards Chris
Reply:Excellent advice snowshoveler Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.Originally Posted by snowshovelerIf its at all possible...take the guy a coffee and ask him if he would have a minute or 2 to help you with what you did wrong. A lot of guys would not go back but if you can it might just show you are willing and able to learn. Might just be a good thing.Regards Chris
Reply:Originally Posted by lotechmanEvery machine and electrode brand is different.  I am always trying to force too much heat on my E 7018 and of course I find myself hammering like crazy.  The correct flux falling off heat is comparatively low and you have to pay attention to your rod manipulation because the puddle is smaller.   I was actually teaching when I noticed a very experienced "inmate" I was helping was just tapping his flux off his beads.  I started to lower my amperage also and found that sweet spot.  Actually a shame since I wanted him to start practicing pipe but he didn't have any confidence.
Reply:Originally Posted by weld master 23how do you tell if it's a machine that has an inverter or a transformer?
Reply:Amp range for 1/8" 7018 is 110 to 165, FYI.
Reply:dont feel bad about failing a weld test tons of people fail welds every day but you learned from your mistakes and picked yourself up and are ready to go out thier and give it another go
Reply:Originally Posted by walkerAmp range for 1/8" 7018 is 110 to 165, FYI.
Reply:go and ask him if you can come by and after hours and borrow a machine weld scrap.  Tell him you would like to weld for him, but just got out of welding school and obviously am missing some things.  Ask him for the chance to retest in a month.  1  it would put you in the environment2  other welders will help you and if you don't get in the way, but ask a lot of questions during off time you will learn.3  He will see your worth and may throw you a bone.when your test time comes be ready!can't hurt asking.
Reply:Originally Posted by VydunasWhen I go vertical up, I go about 90 to 95.
Reply:Did you check the polarity on the machine? Places have been known to switch it to straight just to see if you have the ability to recognize the the difference !
Reply:Originally Posted by PetriDid you check the polarity on the machine? Places have been known to switch it to straight just to see if you have the ability to recognize the the difference !
Reply:Originally Posted by ShortbusWelderI'm about 117-119 pending on machine on vertical up. Overhead and flat, 125-130..    Everyone is different, but I think vert up,  95 is to cold.
Reply:Originally Posted by ShortbusWelderI'm about 117-119 pending on machine on vertical up. Overhead and flat, 125-130..    Everyone is different, but I think vert up,  95 is to cold.
Reply:Yes it would hold a arc! Did you check yes or no? You ask for help, one thing you should always do is check the machine settings and connections! I have seen guys weld for hours on the wrong polarity complaning the rod is junk the machine is junk ect.
Reply:Originally Posted by PetriYes it would hold a arc! Did you check yes or no? You ask for help, one thing you should always do is check the machine settings and connections! I have seen guys weld for hours on the wrong polarity complaning the rod is junk the machine is junk ect.
Reply:Don't despairIf you didn't learn to weld at school you can always make "how to" videos That was a really ugly commentAnyways.....try going somewhere, hat in hand, tell them you've been to welding school, probably really don't know your azz from your elbow, and would like a job as a helper and would work to move up to welding/fitting.  Be humble, it goes a long way in life, and there are good people out there who remember when they started and how difficult it was.Last edited by farmersamm; 06-07-2013 at 10:34 AM.Reason: spelling"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammDon't despairIf you didn't learn to weld at school you can always make "how to" videos That was a really ugly comment
Reply:Originally Posted by weld master 23Maybe i'll give it another shot at another place. I'm starting to think I need to pick another career. Welding is just a pita period.
Reply:Go set your machine on straight and weld with it and see if it acts like it did when you welded the T joint. If it did or didn't it will be a good lesson learned
Reply:I don't have a machine at home.the problem with being a helper is that they pay 10/he. I can't even get an apartment making that kind of money.
Reply:Maybe you were exp arc blow when you were at that shop. It sounds that could be the problem, welding going go good than all of sudden it goes to crap.  The school you went to should've showed you what that is and how to fix it..  As for only making 10 hr, what do you expect to make? You're green to the field, not sure why you busted your first test. Didn't ask the right questions when testing, didn't set the machine up for your liking,etc,etc..  Honestly, you're not going to making pipe welding wages unless you can weld pipe. I think the school you went to might of mislead you to thinking once you graduate from the school the clouds are gng to open up and drop 100 dollar bills from the sky.  I see this all the time..  Some it does happen, I mean graduate and go on to make a decent wage from the start,but for most they start at the bottom..If you want to give up after your first test/ interview, then I don't think welding is for you.  One needs to be thick skinned,and not afraid to fail, it happens,just learn from it..So get out there and try again..
Reply:I'm not expecting to make $30/hr but would like to make atleast $18/hr. Not sure if that's asking too much for someone trying to get his foot in the door out of school.
Reply:$18/hr? Hmmm ... what about a union apprenticeship? My first job inteview straight out of school I failed the welding test, Job was to be "light fabrication" of thin tubes this after spending a the better portion of a year welding plate steel with ZERO fabrication experience. Totally different animal. Anyway, the school found an ironworker's apprenticeship opening up and suggested I check it out. All excited, I started researching "ironworkers". Yah, right, not really a wise career move for me having suffered a spinal injury years ago and lost much sensation in my lower legs and feet making balance a best guess (even if heights were of no issue ), but it might work for you. And the pay might be about what you are seeking. Training is even provided. Check your local union websitesXMT304 (school)SP125+ (home)HF 4x6 BandsawGood judgement comes from experience and much of that comes from bad judgement.
Reply:Originally Posted by weld master 23I'm not expecting to make $30/hr but would like to make atleast $18/hr. Not sure if that's asking too much for someone trying to get his foot in the door out of school.
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugIt is asking too much if you can't weld a T-joint and can't read the weld to know what went wrong. Start at the bottom and work your way up, if you do good starting out ask them for a harder test so that you can weld the more difficult joints and make some more $$.
Reply:I welded t-joints just fine at school. I welded bevel plate too in 1-4g positions good enough to pass. Why it got so messed up when I went to that shop is beyond me. Like you guys said, it could have been anything from messed up rods to the wrong temp or even the polarity reversed on the machine. For some reason I just don't seem to have a good feeling about this career choice. I think that if i'm already starting to hate it when I haven't even started, something is definitely wrong. I should be happy and excited about this not frustrated and stressed out. Maybe i'll try carpentry instead since I know a whole lot about that. When something gets messed up, atleast I can explain the why, how, and what not to do next time. I don't know why I didn't just try to get a job doing carpentry in the first place. Oh well, it's funny how sometimes, you don't figure out what you really want to do until after you wasted a bunch of time and money in school.