Need pointer - tigging 1mm thick rail for cupboards

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OK, I've got some gear to get me into welding/metalworking but am still fiddlingat first base, not doing anything quite well and would like a pointer -maybe with this small task I'll get the floaties off and start swimming The rails for hanging cupboards come in 2m lengths and I have a leftoversmall piece together with which I would have enough length to avoidbuying another rail/using more bolts than necessary - plus it may be a goodlesson in tigging (I'll find some other material of similar thickness to practiceon - this has to be welded well otherwise a cupboard may fall on my head one day).Details:The picture of the rail is attached - I flap-sanded the (zinc) coating off the ends(hopefully this will be good enough to avoid any health problems ?).Rail thickness 1mmTig - Fronius MagicWave 2200 (has pulse,tac, spot and the usual functions)What procedures and parameters should I use for welding ?According to the general guide lines I understand it's 40A/mm of thickness / what about pulse etc./should I try it without filler if I do a good fit preparationForgot to add - have a 2.4mm electrode and no 6 cup. Attached ImagesLast edited by vjeko; 12-22-2010 at 02:59 PM.Reason: additional info
Reply:As I was waiting for some feedback,I spent the whole day playing with different settings trying to weld something similar in thickness (approx 3/4" tubing, 1mm thick wall).I played around with current, pulsing , tac and spot welding.Regarding spot welding I got a bit confused as to the difference between spotand tac welding as my aim at tacking was to weld for a short period of time / tackand this I could be preset via spot welding. The tack welding function allows pulsingfor any part of the whole tacking- so,  I felt a bit confusedwhich which was which Anyway, in the end I have no good results to show except for quite a lot ofburn throughs (things were improving but nothing good to show). On the other hand, I did get more experience sharpening the electrode, seeing the difficulty in welding thin material (especially tacking/welding without filler) and saw  importance of choosing the right thickness filler and electrode for a specific job (is it possible to weld 1mm with 2.4mm electrode and 2.4mm filler (for a newbie)?) and precise/clean preparation.As I was working on 1mm steel tubing, I tried currents from 40Adownward. 40A was way too high, 20A a bit low, so at the end I was around 30A.I would very much appreciate any pointer to move forward. Here'sa list of settings you can comment on.gas - argongas usage - 7l/minfiller - 2.4mm on the rod I see 1.5125 / 2ES62 - on a German web page, I see this translates toER70S6- electrode 2.4mm gold-start current = 35% main current = 11A- time for start current = off-time upslope 0,5 sec- main current 30A- time downslope = 1 sec- end current = 30% of main current = 9A- time for end current = off- gas preflow 0.4 sec- gas post flow 2.5 sec-gas high (increase in gas postflow time at main current) = auto-tack = off-frequency pulsing = off-duty cycle (for pulsing) - not applicable as pulsing is off-current - ground - NOT SURE WHAT THIS IS-mode - 2 step - using hand operation-spot = off- polarity negative- current correction = 0 (amount you can vary the set main current via remote)
Reply:Originally Posted by vjekoAs I was waiting for some feedback,I spent the whole day playing with different settings trying to weld something similar in thickness (approx 3/4" tubing, 1mm thick wall).I played around with current, pulsing , tac and spot welding.Regarding spot welding I got a bit confused as to the difference between spotand tac welding as my aim at tacking was to weld for a short period of time / tackand this I could be preset via spot welding. The tack welding function allows pulsingfor any part of the whole tacking- so,  I felt a bit confusedwhich which was which Anyway, in the end I have no good results to show except for quite a lot ofburn throughs (things were improving but nothing good to show). On the other hand, I did get more experience sharpening the electrode, seeing the difficulty in welding thin material (especially tacking/welding without filler) and saw  importance of choosing the right thickness filler and electrode for a specific job (is it possible to weld 1mm with 2.4mm electrode and 2.4mm filler (for a newbie)?) and precise/clean preparation.As I was working on 1mm steel tubing, I tried currents from 40Adownward. 40A was way too high, 20A a bit low, so at the end I was around 30A.I would very much appreciate any pointer to move forward. Here'sa list of settings you can comment on.gas - argongas usage - 7l/minfiller - 2.4mm on the rod I see 1.5125 / 2ES62 - on a German web page, I see this translates toER70S6- electrode 2.4mm gold-start current = 35% main current = 11A- time for start current = off-time upslope 0,5 sec- main current 30A- time downslope = 1 sec- end current = 30% of main current = 9A- time for end current = off- gas preflow 0.4 sec- gas post flow 2.5 sec-gas high (increase in gas postflow time at main current) = auto-tack = off-frequency pulsing = off-duty cycle (for pulsing) - not applicable as pulsing is off-current - ground - NOT SURE WHAT THIS IS-mode - 2 step - using hand operation-spot = off- polarity negative- current correction = 0 (amount you can vary the set main current via remote)
Reply:I would go down to a .040 electrode and clamp both pieces to a piece of brass, 1/4 -1/2 inch thick.  This will suck up some of the heat and allow you to better control the throttle to get the puddle going.  I use copper and brass often, as a backing, when welding really thin material.
Reply:You do understand that it will be cheaper in the long run to just buy more rails and scrap the cutoffs, than to prep each cutoff piece, and weld them together into franken-rails.It will be very difficult to produce a straight rail that way (even with elaborate jigging), and after the cost of filler and flap wheels (not to mention the time involved), this is a dubious venture at best.If you want to learn to TIG weld, I'd say to forget about this, and just find clean metal to join.
Reply:what is the purpose of welding those railings?your tungsten is too large for the material thickness and amps .try a 1,6mm or 1mm tungsten and .8mm mig wire and 25A--------------------------------------------------------------www.becmotors.nlyup, I quit welding.. joined welder anonymous
Reply:OK, thanks !I'm using a gun with hand trigger/now using 2 step mode i.e. hold- on/release -off.Then I'll first have to get the thinner rod and electrode.Other than the actual steps on how to do it, can you also comment a biton the other settings / need for pulse and what we want/don't want to achievewith up/downslope and maybe some other settings (dave indicates to turn up/down slope off - I this means to start  from 0Amp and go directly to main current and at end down to 0Amp - don'thave a feeling for what we will achieve with this)(also maybe clarify difference between spot/tack function)I am especially interested in whether the rod/electrode size  reduction and low currentwill make this work (if I do it right and have the right prep) or is it good to introduce pulseor focus on some other setting - particularly interested in avoiding burnthrough.Oh BTW, I'm a firm believer in need of practice for everything imaginable to be good at it- it's the builtin imperfection in life, and welding is no different nor is it the easiest to master.rlitman:I'm starting to think this is the hard end to start learning but I just wantedto join only that one piece since i had it lying around - will persevere a little moreand give up if I see I'm being stuck too long.Donoharm: since you mentioned it and to avoid me digging around for the answer -what's the diff between .8mm mig wire and tig rod ?Last edited by vjeko; 12-23-2010 at 03:28 PM.Reason: additional info
Reply:firstswitch to 4takt(and get used to it) , 2takt is only for taking things together.up/downslope and pre/post flow are needed for more critical weldments and at a higher experience level i would leave those settings as they are right now.it can be done without pulse why complicate things?yes, the electrode and current reduction will make it work and make it easierabout being a believer in the need for practice.. well first you need the theory then practice, i must say practice NEVER ends in welding .I never found tig rod below 1mm, don't think they make it, there is no difference between them as far as I know--------------------------------------------------------------www.becmotors.nlyup, I quit welding.. joined welder anonymous
Reply:They don't make TIG rod that small, BUT, you can buy MIG wire in those smaller diameters, and cut to lengths that you like.  ER70S-6 is the same, no matter how it is packaged.I didn't want to sound like a naysayer, but I think you'll find that no matter how good your welding is, the final part won't be as straight as you need unless you have a massive alignment jig, and a robotic factory setup.
Reply:Originally Posted by vjekoOK, thanks !I'm using a gun with hand trigger/now using 2 step mode i.e. hold- on/release -off.Then I'll first have to get the thinner rod and electrode.Other than the actual steps on how to do it, can you also comment a biton the other settings / need for pulse and what we want/don't want to achievewith up/downslope and maybe some other settings (dave indicates to turn up/down slope off - I this means to start  from 0Amp and go directly to main current and at end down to 0Amp - don'thave a feeling for what we will achieve with this)(also maybe clarify difference between spot/tack function)I am especially interested in whether the rod/electrode size  reduction and low currentwill make this work (if I do it right and have the right prep) or is it good to introduce pulseor focus on some other setting - particularly interested in avoiding burnthrough.Oh BTW, I'm a firm believer in need of practice for everything imaginable to be good at it- it's the builtin imperfection in life, and welding is no different nor is it the easiest to master.rlitman:I'm starting to think this is the hard end to start learning but I just wantedto join only that one piece since i had it lying around - will persevere a little moreand give up if I see I'm being stuck too long.Donoharm: since you mentioned it and to avoid me digging around for the answer -what's the diff between .8mm mig wire and tig rod ?
Reply:Originally Posted by Donoharmfirst...I never found tig rod below 1mm, don't think they make it, there is no difference between them as far as I know
Reply:Dave- maybe I formulated my answer about my torch in an oversimplified manner.since I'm using everything in the simplest way for now  - it can continuously vary the current or some other active parameter . (here's a web page about it if interested: http://www.fronius.com/cps/rde/xchg/.../3022_4173.htmIt's the up/down modelI haven't gotten to the stage of adjusting the current on the torch - I just programthe low and high current and start her up rlitman: I get what you're saying and I guess I could have bought 10 new oneswith the time I have spent till now but I'm learning, so I have to pay the price somewhere.Not sure if I explained what I was doing precisely enough - I just need one rail, it'sactually for my garage - finally getting "workshop" in order and I'm missinga couple of inches to hang 4 cupboards and it doesn't matter if that end is a bit outas the adjustment on the cupboard on that side will easily take care of that (hopefully,I wont mess things up that badlyDonoharm: fully agree with you, I assumed everyone "heard my thoughts" that one needs the theory first. Have tried 4 takt, will get back to itOK, a little break now with practice on thicker material before I get the thinnerrod/electrode. Will post more pictures later for feedback before I go ahead anddo the weld (now that I think about it, have a few stainless lamps (thin material)I want to modify from side wall mount to ceiling mount, so will need the rod/electrodeand practice for that anyway.
Reply:[QUOTE=vjeko;451922]Dave- maybe I formulated my answer about my torch in an oversimplified manner.since I'm using everything in the simplest way for now  - it can continuously vary the current or some other active parameter . (here's a web page about it if interested: http://www.fronius.com/cps/rde/xchg/.../3022_4173.htmIt's the up/down modelI haven't gotten to the stage of adjusting the current on the torch - I just program the low and high current and start her up *************vjeko sez:"I haven't gotten to the stage of adjusting the current on the torch - I just program the low and high current and start her up "1-Apparently this torch can vary the current infinitely--it's not simply 'on' or 'off'2-The 'normal' way the old fashioned fools--TIG is:- to vary the current via variable hand or foot control-throw and vary the heat to create a puddle-vary the current to control the puddleBy only using pre-set current levels and ramp up/down on the machine,instead of instantly varying the current--to create and control the puddle,you're making this 10X more difficult to do.     Your current lack of un-satisfactory results bears this out.Suggest you turn off the slope or ramp up/down--and start usingthe variable current control on the torch--it's there for a reason.Just start trying to TIG, the way the old fashioned fools do it.It does produce consistent results.Last edited by dave powelson; 12-24-2010 at 04:16 PM.Reason: correctionBlackbird
Reply:Footpedal Man!!!!You need one.That is so easy with one..Set the amps at say 80 wide open and just hit "GO" with your foot.Ramp up until a puddle forms then just adjust accordingly.I am SO spoiled.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:guys , foot pedals are not that common in Europe--------------------------------------------------------------www.becmotors.nlyup, I quit welding.. joined welder anonymous
Reply:as a n00b I find sometimes practicing without variable control to be beneficial in some ways, I mean yeah, you won't be able to start up the puddles as quickly, but remember, welding is about consistency... I may need to play with dialing in my amps a few times up or down for the material but when I do get it dialed then I can run consistent beads a lot better than I would by blindly stabbing at a pedal without even really knowing what I should be seeing in the pool to begin with... after you know what your looking for & figure out how to run a puddle at a consistent amperage then it becomes easier to modulate the amperage because then you know what your looking for, I think for a n00b learning on there own, practicing welding at fixed amperage isn't so bad really...miller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:Right now I'm not able to spend any more money on a foot pedal andwould like to prove to myself that I can use the torch (would be a bit spoiledjumping from one "toy" to the next.)turbocad6 described my situation pretty well i.e. my logic was thatif I knew from theory approx how much current was needed for a particularthickness material, I played around that current range on a test pieceuntil I had what I wanted - it takes only a few goes to see whetherthe current is too low or so high that you can't keep up with it.I then used the 2 step mode to start the current up and lookedto see puddle forming and then controlled speed of movement,at the end release button and stop. I was at a point of just wantingto get going and practicing - that was the easiest way forward.I've practiced forming the puddle without filler as well asadding filler in 2 step mode and very little 4 step mode - there's6 variants of the 4 step mode on the machine, so I've gota lot of practice ahead of meDave: I wouldn't call it the fool's way - it's the proper way andI've been using the beginners way but am slowly going forward/improving.Sometimes I guess I may be afraid of going forward - not afraid of making mistakes but not sure how things should really be done.I like to know my theory and know each step pretty well beforeprogressing since I'm teaching myself - it's a bit slow, but nowI feel I've almost outgrown this phase, ready for some more progress.Well, I guess you guys aren't too interested in this really beginnerstuff, but I appreciate all your input. Unfortunately I'm in the neck of the woods where there are no welding schoolsand so I have to persevere on my own.Will revive this thread once I've practiced a bit more and have therod/electrode and something to show for commenting.
Reply:practice on some thicker (3mm) material buddy  Merry Christmas to all.--------------------------------------------------------------www.becmotors.nlyup, I quit welding.. joined welder anonymous