20 amp or 30 amp

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just read something about going to a 30 amp breaker and getting better penetration with a 110 volt mig. i have a millermatic 135 that calls for a 20 amp breaker and thats what i have it hooked up to. guess i could try a 30 amp breaker but dont understand how that would give the welder more power.
Reply:Unless you are popping the 20amp breaker going 30amps is pointless..Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:It's not that the bigger breaker gives you more penetration. It simply allows the machine to draw as much power as it can without tripping the breaker, so you can make the most of the machine. Many times other items on the same circuit suck up power that the welder might have been able to use. By going to a dedicated 30 amp breaker you remove the input power as the possible limiting factor and allow the machine  to run at it's maximum capacity..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by hotrod351just read something about going to a 30 amp breaker and getting better penetration with a 110 volt mig. i have a millermatic 135 that calls for a 20 amp breaker and thats what i have it hooked up to. guess i could try a 30 amp breaker but dont understand how that would give the welder more power.
Reply:As others have mentioned the breaker change won't do anything unless it's tripping. If you do change the breaker be sure you label the outlet "welder only" and it's the only outlet on the branch. The breaker is there to protect the wiring not the machine. Transformer based welder wiring can be derated based on duty cycle. A 20% duty cycle machine is factored by 0.45 so your little machine can draw nearly 50 amps and still meet code requirements. This can save a bundle in wiring. This has been discussed in depth:http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=115131I think the better question would be to understand what your welding. I have a small MM 175 and I normally run 0.24 wire because it runs hotter. What wire are you running? What material thickness are you welding?Can you preheat your items being welded? Attached Images
Reply:As said, if the breaker is not tripping, a bigger breaker doesn't get you anything 'more'.If the existing breaker -is- tripping, then a bigger breaker may let you turn the machine up 'higher' and that is where you would get better penetration (from more heat/power in the weld).  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:If you do go to a bigger external circuit breaker, be sure your wiring can support that current and make sure the machine (I don't know the Millermatic 135) has its own built-in circuit protection. Pulling 30 amps through the welder when it can't handle 30 amps may smoke your machine.XMT304 (school)SP125+ (home)HF 4x6 BandsawGood judgement comes from experience and much of that comes from bad judgement.
Reply:Ditto Wirehead, very important. The breaker is only there to protect the wire, not the machine.
Reply:Originally Posted by walker... not the machine.
Reply:all the answers are what id figured. machine calls for a 20 amp breaker, have a 20 amp breaker, going bigger isnt going to give the machine any more power. so times people state thing with such confidence that it sound like it has to be true.
Reply:Read the installation section of your machine's operation manual closely. Don't know whether Miller is similar, but my Lincoln has 3 recommended inputs, 15A "CSA", 20A "RATED", and 25A "MAXIMUM" (the welder has its own 25A internal circuit breaker) so there is some truth to what you heard, but it really depends upon the specific machineXMT304 (school)SP125+ (home)HF 4x6 BandsawGood judgement comes from experience and much of that comes from bad judgement.
Reply:Running it on a 30 amp breaker or just bolting the wires directly to the buss so it doesn't have a breaker is not going to effect the performance.  All its gonna draw is what its designed to.But if you want to help performace give it the best power supply you can to decrease voltage drop and heat build up in the wire. Depending on distance, upping the wire size to #10 helps a lot because it ensures your welder is getting proper voltage when the circuit is loaded.I run my 140 on a 20 amp circuit with #12 wire and it performs flawlessly. I have hit duty cycle a few times and it never tripped the breaker. But the plug I use for my welder is 10 feet from the panel and I don't use an extension cord
Reply:If you change the BRAKER you have to change the WIRE also. 12 gauge wire for 20 amp braker and 10 gauge wire for 30 amp braker.www.georgesplasmacuttershop.comPlasma Cutter and Welder Sales and Repairs--Ebay storeTec.Mo. Dealer Consumables for the PT and IPT torch's
Reply:A 20 amp braker on 10 gauge wire won't help because it will still trip if the welder draws more then 20 amps.www.georgesplasmacuttershop.comPlasma Cutter and Welder Sales and Repairs--Ebay storeTec.Mo. Dealer Consumables for the PT and IPT torch's
Reply:A lot of the 3rd and 4th hand advice you pick up on the internet is a mutant of what was, probably, some good solid advice before it made the rounds from a message board to a couple of guys in a hobby garage, to the bar, back through a few 4X4 groups then back to the point of origin. Never recognize the original advice. Voltage drop. Voltage drop is a key element here. Somebody said that if you move your 120v welder off that cheezy overloaded 15 amp circuit (circuit is another key word) to a nice solid 20 amp circuit, it will probably perform a little better. They may have suggested that you shuck that 50 foot of 18 awg extension cord too. All good advice. By the time the above makes it back to the guy handing out the advice its morphed into "just swap the breaker", "put in a 30". Remember, we talk in terms of welding/equipment circuits, not necessarily breakers only. A breaker is an over current/short circuit protection device. A circuit is comprised of a breaker, some wire and a receptacle."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:It's kinda like higher-octane gas.If the engine wasn't knocking or pinging with the lower-octane gas (or trying to knock/ping before the knock sensor retarded the ignition), then going to higher-octane gas won't give you any more power.In fact, since octane is often boosted by adding more alcohol to the gasoline, you'll actually be getting less energy per mass unit of fuel.
Reply:whats scary is that some of these people actually think they know what there talking about. i just had a guy who works at a  local hardware store tell me that now way could i run 220 volts off a dual 20 amp breaker. yet my friend who was a electrical contractor wired my shop from a dual 20 amp for my compressor = 220 vollts. he also wire another dual 20 amp for a big window ac unit. both which have worked for years. but he swore up and down you could get 220 volts for a dual 20 amp breaker. now what im meaning by dual 20 amp is the type that takes the place of two breakers, has four breakers in it which two are hooked together for a 220 volt source. youd think he might of thought i was saying you can run 220 from a single 20 amp, not so, i showed him the breaker and he  said no way, guess the two 20 breakers connected together were for fun. anyway ill go with what my friend  said, and does, for a living.
Reply:yeah like voltage to spark plugs, 50,000 volts = good, 100,000 must be better. and some people actually believe it.
Reply:Originally Posted by mechanic416A 20 amp braker on 10 gauge wire won't help because it will still trip if the welder draws more then 20 amps.
Reply:Originally Posted by hotrod351yeah like voltage to spark plugs, 50,000 volts = good, 100,000 must be better. and some people actually believe it.
Reply:Check this out mechanic.Now I didn't make this up. An electrical engineer went over the design and concluded that this welder would run properly on a dedicated 20 amp circuit. This is a hobart handler 140 amp model. 140 amps is about the most powerful 120 volt welder I know of so it should work for just about any of them.So going on what the engineer came up with, I'm betting that if you have a breaker tripping its either a weak breaker or you have wiring issues. I'm not saying its a bad idea to run it on a 30 because evedently there is some leeway on wiring supply for welders in article 630 of the nec, BUT what I am saying is that if the wiring is up to snuff a 30 isn't needed.
Reply:Originally Posted by mechanic416  A 20 amp braker on 10 gauge wire won't help because it will still trip if the welder draws more then 20 amps. jamesyarbroughI take it you are aiming this at meOther then not hitting spell check, can you find something wrong with that statement? My first post was for hotrod telling him you must change the wire as well as the breaker. You just can't be putting a 30 amp breaker in a 20 amp circuit. Unless I misread his question.  As far as a electrical contractor license, I gave it up when I retired from my business back in 2002 but if I can find a old copy I will post it JUST FOR YOU.www.georgesplasmacuttershop.comPlasma Cutter and Welder Sales and Repairs--Ebay storeTec.Mo. Dealer Consumables for the PT and IPT torch's
Reply:While on the topic can somebody clarify for me. The Hobart 140 manual says a 20 amp circuit is required...BUT...the 20 amp requirement to me looks like what is required at the RATED output which is only 90amps output. Does that mean to hit the max output of 140 amps a circuit larger than 20 amps would be required?  If thats the case most welder tags I see are rated similar with their ratings related to the rated output and not the max output.  These ratings on the tags on the welders confuse me. Thanks. Last edited by ProCharger; 06-01-2013 at 06:18 PM.
Reply:Yeah the problem with that statement is that no 120 volt welder should draw more than 20 amps....EVERIf that problem arises its a wiring issueAnd btw I totally agree that no one should just slap a 30 amp breaker on a 20 amp circuit.Last edited by jamesyarbrough; 06-01-2013 at 06:34 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by ProChargerWhile on the topic can somebody clarify for me. The Hobart 140 manual says a 20 amp circuit is required...BUT...the 20 amp requirement to me looks like what is required at the RATED output which is only 90amps output. Does that mean to hit the max output of 140 amps a circuit larger than 20 amps would be required?  If thats the case most welder tags I see are rated similar with their ratings related to the rated output and not the max output.  These ratings on the tags on the welders confuse me. Thanks.When you increase the wire size, you in effect decrease the resistance of the current through the wire, and thus could reduce the amp required to push the current through the wire in some situations (like a long distance run).  So if your house can supply 120 volts to an outlet, and the wire is too small, the volts can be reduced due to resistance created by the small wire size, which will increase the amps needed to deliver the current to run the device being used on that circuit.So increasing the wire size on longer runs may be the answer in some situation.  When I wired my dedicated 125 amp sub panel for my garage, I used the next size up in wire for everything, though it was not required by code, or engineering.  It gives me peace of mind when I am welding or grinding to know that at max load, the size of my wire is not creating any resistance.You see this when looking at the specs on any given welder.  Take the Lincoln Power MIG 256 for example, if the power source is 208v (many commercial power sources in the U.S), the amps need at 208v is 56 amps, Vs 52 amps at 230v (most residential power source in the U.S are 230v).  The actual voltage varies, the measured volts at my meter is 242.7 volts, which is great for residential use, and means the amps needed to push the current to my welder will be less then say the guy that has only 225 volts measured at his meter.http://www.lincolnelectric.com/asset...068-1/e755.pdfImagine if the wire size was creating resistance to your welder, the welder would then require more amps to run, and thus could trip the breaker if the amp exceeded the breaker size used, or it could melt the wire supplying the current to the outlet.I was an electrician 22 years ago, and still do all my own wiring.  I have an NEC code book, and I did go to school to learn how to apply electrical code.  But suggesting that people post pictures of their electrical contractor license proves very little.https://www.google.com/search?q=elec...FY-VjAKw2YDQAw  With that said, no one should take advice on electrical wiring for their home or shop from the Internet.  Hire a licensed electrician, or go to school and learn how.  And remember, people forget and miss speak or quote all the time, you do not want to take someone else’s brain fart, or typo to the realm of reality when it comes to something as important as wiring your shop or home to power a welder.GarLast edited by Gar; 06-01-2013 at 07:41 PM.Lincoln Electric, Power MIG 256Hypertherm Powermax 45 Miller Dynasty 280DXSmith O/A torchGenesis of a welding table
Reply:With that said, no one should take advice on electrical wiring for their home or shop from the Internet. agree. luck for me a good friend who is dead now, was a electrical contractor. but the problems come up when some one starts talking and sounding like they know what there talking about. i know about the surge but when being told that all 220 volt machine have to have dual 30 amp breakers because of the surge, well thats nuts. seeing s my friend wired a 220 volt compressor and a big 220 volt window ac for 220 and used dual 20 amp breakers for each unit.
Reply:Please!  There are so many inaccurate and misstatements in this thread that I hope no one takes it seriously and does more research before hooking up your welder.Gar, if you were a licensed electrician, you may have forgotten more than some of these posters ever knew, but please go back through your post and read it as though someone else had written it. You will find misstatements and wrong information all over the place. I and many others have posted detailed and accurate information about welding circuits many times. I am not inclined to repost it every week.Both Miller and Lincoln tech support will provide all the information you need or want that is accurate and safe for your particular welder.
Reply:Originally Posted by davido30093Please!  There are so many inaccurate and misstatements in this thread that I hope no one takes it seriously and does more research before hooking up your welder.Gar, if you were a licensed electrician, you may have forgotten more than some of these posters ever knew, but please go back through your post and read it as though someone else had written it. You will find misstatements and wrong information all over the place. I and many others have posted detailed and accurate information about welding circuits many times. I am not inclined to repost it every week.Both Miller and Lincoln tech support will provide all the information you need or want that is accurate and safe for your particular welder.
Reply:Originally Posted by jamesyarbroughYeah the problem with that statement is that no 120 volt welder should draw more than 20 amps....EVERIf that problem arises its a wiring issueAnd btw I totally agree that no one should just slap a 30 amp breaker on a 20 amp circuit.
Reply:from a 20 amp breaker:40 amps for 25 seconds30 amps for 60 secondsSo again, unless you have a machine that came with a 30 amp plug, dont use anything other than a 20amp 12 awg breaker.  But also, dont use an extension cord off of the tail end of a 5 outlet branch in the garage that is running on 14 awg 15 amp breaker either, or you will be tripping the breaker and not getting any output.Also fwiw, there is a thread here where someone did try and max out a 110v welder and measured the input current, and it was a bit more than 20 amps, but I think 110 amps was the highest he got out of a 135 amp machine in optimum conditions.miller syncrowave 250hobart handler 140home made 400 amp engine driven in progress...
Reply:Originally Posted by jdchmielThis is actually quite wrong.  A circuit breaker blows at its rated current X a specific amount of time, or a greater current for a shorter time.. So since the duty cycle of the 110v welders in teh 100+ amp range is so low, the breaker will not trip, the welder will cycle off and not allow you to keep welding until it cools enough.  10% duty cycle means welding for 1 min, cooling off for 9 min.  that means the breaker is also "cooling off" for those 9 min, as well as the 12 guage wire in the wall.  If you actually get 140 amps @ 15v the current draw is much higher than 20 amps.http://static.schneider-electric.us/...0600DB0105.pdf  this is a great chart showing some real numbers on a breaker and how a direct short is dealt with very quickly, but a large startup motor draw can pass through, or a medium large welder draw can work with a recovery time.The safest and most true statement for 110v welders is to run it on a regular 20 amp circuit, and dont dick around with things. They are designed to pull the most they can safely from the 20 amp breaker, for the amount of time they are allowed to.
Reply:manual says rated output is 90 amps at 18.5 volts, which requires 20 amps at 115 v, which they say is 2.5 KW. ( my math says 2.3kw input) that output is 1.67kw, so you can pick one of the two inputs and figure out efficiency if you want, and then use that to figure out what power you need to pull in for 140amps at 15v.72% or 67%, lets just call it 70%. (140*15 / .7) = 3kw input power. 3000/115 = 26 amps input.Rated output is not max output. If it really matters to you enough, search these forum for the thread where someone was good enough to max out his machine and measure the power.  A 20 amp breaker will give 30 amps for a full minutes by design.  Duty cycle can take advantage of that.miller syncrowave 250hobart handler 140home made 400 amp engine driven in progress...
Reply:Originally Posted by jdchmielsome real numbers on a breaker and how a direct short is dealt with very quickly, but a large startup motor draw can pass through, or a medium large welder draw can work with a recovery time.
Reply:Breaker type matters as well - thermal trip breakers will take the surge, but notmagnetic trip.  Magnetics are used on electronics simply because they do trip fast . . . So check what you have!- Tim
Reply:As said above, go the 30 amps on a 120 you need to change the wire conductors or they will be the fuse. 12 guage is not adequated and 14 is definately a no no. Most people today running 120 wiring use 14 to save a buck and it is good to 15 amps. Put a 30 amp breaker on it and the wiring will heat and fail before the breaker, not good.  Using dual 20 amp breakers for 220 will work, but not a good practice, each breaker will supply one leg of the 220, however if you trip 1 breaker, you will only get 120 volts to the equipment, call that a brown out or dropping 1 leg. This can damage some sensitive equipment and I would think inverters would fall into the sensitive equipment category. Use a dual pole single breaker in the right amperage. Don't know how big you compressor or welder is but 20 amp isn't much, my compressor draws 26 amp when it was new, My TiG, 125 amp draw when maxed."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400