Horrible Stick Welding

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I'm having a devil of a time laying down a clean bead with a stick welder. I'm currently trying to weld a 3/4" x 3/4" x 1/8" strip of angle iron to the top of a 1.25" x 1.25" x 1/8" strip of angle iron. As you can see, I'm getting tons of nasty inclusions and a thick, lumpy bead. Here's how I'm set up: I have a new Miller Dynasty 200DX. I'm using 3/32" E6013 electrodes with the Amperage set between 90-100. I'm dragging (not actually touching metal) the rod at a 45 degree angle. I'm also pointing the tip of the electrode into the joint at about a 45 degree angle. I'm watching the puddle and weaving very slightly on both sides of the joint. I get very heavy slag that's hard to remove. I know this weld looks terrible and I obviously need constructive criticism.Thanks.Tool Steel Attached Images
Reply:My guess is long arcing.  You need to really stick it in the corner with 6013.Both sides of the flux can lightly scrape the both sides.  No weaving needed on metal that thin.Run a few beads on flat metal and show us your form.Dave J.Edit: just noticed your drag angle.  I drag between 5 degrees and 15 degrees.  If hot enough on heavy metal, I'm straight in.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Dump the 6013. Those welds are typical. Even Jody from WTT doesn't like it.Try the same thing with 6011. Or if it is sparkling clean metal, try 7018.If you must use 6013 then weld at less angle (more vertical to the weld) and go slower.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveMy guess is long arcing.  You need to really stick it in the corner with 6013.Both sides of the flux can lightly scrape the both sides.  No weaving needed on metal that thin.Run a few beads on flat metal and show us your form.Dave J.Edit: just noticed your drag angle.  I drag between 5 degrees and 15 degrees.  If hot enough on heavy metal, I'm straight in.
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugI was about to say the same thing, let the rod drag on the steel a little. Also..Spiders don't weld very well, clean them off for best results
Reply:@ ToolSteel - never ran 6013s with my 200DX, but have ripped many a 7018s (3/32, 1/8) on 1/8" and 1/2" HRS with excellent results.  Lots of slag self-peals.From the body of knowledge.....6013 is also a drag-like rod, with the additional requirement for maintaining a tight arc with a slight weave pattern.  Your amperage figures look spot on.  Have you tried AC mode with the 6013s?  Have you ran any 7018s, or others, with the 200DX? Experience with SMAW?Your 45deg fwd (drag) angle seems WAY excessive.  Perhaps a more vertical angle, say 10deg off vertical,  with the 6013 would remedy the problem.  This angle is typical when ripping 7018s, 7014s, etc.No expert here bro, just trying to discern what may be causing your issues. I'll have to try out the 6013s.Last edited by ManoKai; 07-08-2013 at 10:46 PM."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:ManoKai - If you run 6013 on AC nice and hot, drag slightly on the metal - you'll get nice self-peals like you are used to with 7018 Run cold with a long arc = lots of problems.Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:I have heard Jody say that this is typical of 6013 run poorly. Lots of slag inclusions down the core of the weld, even if there is a pretty bead on top. I can't tell you how to fix your problem, except to suggest switching to a different rod. Also, with 6013, you can't back up at all, or you get slag inclusions. You must always be moving forward with the rod. So if, in your weave motion, you were accidentally backing up a little, that might be causing your issue. Maybe try running a straight stringer first and see if it's any better?Everlast PA160-STH... and that's about it!
Reply:I cant stand 6013 rod.I use 2 rods for carbon steel myself, 6010 or 7018.It looks to me from your first pic, your traveling too fast. You have decent fusion on the lower side of the angle iron but you have very little metal fused on the top part of the angle iron. Slow down and allow the puddle to wash up onto both sides of the angle iron.Hold your rod at  45 degree angle to the corner of the angle iron, then lower your hand just a little bit more to direct the end of the electrode slightly more to the upper side of the angle iron. Then lean the stinger slightly in the direction of travel so you are dragging the puddle behind the rod.Keep your travel speed, rod angle and arc length exactly the same all the way through your weld.I'm surprised to see the $$ you have into your welder for the stick welding skills you have.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Originally Posted by joshuabardwellI have heard Jody say that this is typical of 6013 run poorly. Lots of slag inclusions down the core of the weld, even if there is a pretty bead on top. I can't tell you how to fix your problem, except to suggest switching to a different rod. Also, with 6013, you can't back up at all, or you get slag inclusions. You must always be moving forward with the rod. So if, in your weave motion, you were accidentally backing up a little, that might be causing your issue. Maybe try running a straight stringer first and see if it's any better?
Reply:Originally Posted by snoeproeI use 2 rods for carbon steel myself, 6010 or 7018.
Reply:Thanks for all the replies. It's very early in the morning here in Atlanta, so I'll wait until daylight to test out some of your suggestions.As for the 6011; I've tried it before, but it's very aggressive stuff. My thinking was the 6013 would be a little softer and more forgiving. Who knows? I have some 7018, but haven't used it much. I think it's the whole "dryness" issue with that electrode. But that's just me making up possible problems. I have more than enough real welding issues to deal with. I'll give it a try.I'm proud of the spider. It was very hard to tack weld her in place like that. Of course, I'm kidding.Now about the Dynasty. Yes it's expensive, and no, I don't have a welding skill set to speak of. I saved up for a machine I'd never outgrow. The plan is to work my way up to TIG. welding. Obviously, it will take a long time, but I'm approaching retirement and time is about all I have. Right now I'm working on setting up the argon in a basement workroom. Stick doesn't require that kind of shielding so I thought I'd see what the Dynasty can do. But to explain is to defend. One thing I noticed right away with the Dynasty and stick welding: there's a strange bit of audio feedback that may eventually help me keep a tight arc. If I back up farther than about the width of the electrode, the "eggs and bacon frying" sound is replaced by a soft but very distinct whine, which sounds sort of like a turbine. Move the electrode closer in, the sound goes away.Anyhoo... it's nice to be able to tap in to your collective knowledge. I appreciate it.ToolSteel
Reply:There has been some debate over whether it's necessary to keep 7018 in an oven if you're not going to do code work with it. On one side of the debate are folks who say that it causes hydrogen embrittlement in the heat affected zone that results in internal cracking and eventually, potentially, catastrophic weld failure. On the other side of the debate are folks who say, "I burned 7018 on structural steel projects for years, and there were plenty of jobs where there wasn't a rod oven in sight." You can do your own research and see how you feel about it. There are plenty of hobby welders who burn 7018 that has been stored on a shelf and never seen an oven, though. Especially if you're not welding up anything where life or limb might be on the line, feel free to burn 7018, and don't stress about it. On the other hand, you can burn 7014, which is not a low-hydrogen rod, and which runs similarly to 7018.I also found 6011 to be harder to run, until I got a little practice with other rods and got a better feel for how to work the puddle. The "whip-and-pause" motion that's used with 6011 is challenging, compared to the more straightforward technique used with 7018 or 7014. But 6011 is a really awesome rod once you learn to run it, so don't write it off entirely.Everlast PA160-STH... and that's about it!
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveI've heard him say he doesn't like it.  For me it's just another rod - they all run different.
Reply:Looks like lots of long arcing.  Aren't the amps a bit too high?  Everything I've read puts 3/32 6013 amperage at 50-90 amps max.And kudos to you for buying a great machine right off the bat.  That move probably saved you more money than you'll ever know.  You won't have to be dissatisfied with the lack of features your machine doesn't have, trying to swap and sell machines, etc...Last edited by Drf255; 07-09-2013 at 05:45 AM.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:6013 is an excellent rod! Use a good brand rod, run it hot with a tight arc ...and drag at a consistent steady speed! To many people complain about them! In Europe their the most popular rod!
Reply:I have the same problems with 6013 alsoI like to start with clean shiny steel, but I use 7018 most of the time.Why not a spend a minute with a grinder and avoid that scale?Try 7014, it's a smooth forgiving rod that's great to learn with.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveManoKai - If you run 6013 on AC nice and hot, drag slightly on the metal - you'll get nice self-peals like you are used to with 7018 Run cold with a long arc = lots of problems.Dave J.
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255Everything I've read puts 3/32 6013 amperage at 50-90 amps max.And kudos to you for buying a great machine right off the bat.  That move probably saved you more money than you'll ever know.  You won't have to be dissatisfied with the lack of features your machine doesn't have, trying to swap and sell machines, etc...
Reply:The problem I have with 6013 is it is not a code certified rod here. It has shallow penetration and a very heavy slag covering. That heavy slag can be problematic for an inexperienced stick welder. As we can see, an inexperienced stick welder can bury that heavy slag easily.Last edited by snoeproe; 07-09-2013 at 08:57 AM.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Do you have the polarity correct?Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:ToolSteel, I noticed the spider right off.  While it may be just a harmless crab spider (can't see it that clearly in the photo) it looks like it could be a Brown Recluse.Since you are in Atlanta, Ga.................you live in Brown Recluse territory.You (and everybody) who live/work in areas inhabited by Brown Recluse need to be wary of how you store your welding gloves, your hood and jackets/sleeves between uses.Brown Recluse, as their name implies, are "hiders".  They hide from sight in whatever convenient object offers a place to conceal.Gloves just tossed onto a shelf or laid on top of the welder with the gauntlet open are a perfect place for a Brown Recluse to hide.Same goes for leather sleeves and jackets.I too live in an area where Brown Recluse are plentiful.It has become second nature for me to be aware of where a spider might be able to hide, so I watch for them to scurry whenever I move something in the barn or other storage places.I fold my welding gloves so the gauntlets are pressed shut and then lay a piece of flat steel on them to keep them shut.I store my hood inside a plastic bag that I spin shut and clamp off with a plastic spring clamp.My jacket gets stored inside cloth bag that has a draw string pull to close the end tightly, I then wrap the draw string tightly around the neck of the bag to further assure against a spider getting in.If you have never given any thought to the possibility of being bitten by a Brown Recluse, you might want to search the internet for some facts about Brown Recluse bites.  Statistically speaking, not a lot of people are bitten by Brown recluse.  But the people who do get a bite often go through a long and painful recovery period (up to a year in many cases) and have permanent scarring at the bite site.
Reply:Originally Posted by fortyonethirtyDo you have the polarity correct?
Reply:Thanks for all the comments. After thinking about the pointers, I decided to do a series of test welds using different electrodes.I also substituted 1/4" angle iron for the 1/8" I used the first time. As before, I placed one piece of angle iron on top of the other, and slid it back about .50", giving me a practice lap joint on the front and the back. I should also note that I'm left-handed, so I weld from right to left.Once again, I tested out the 6013 3/32" at 90AI also welded with 6011 3/32"...at about 85A7014 1/8"... at 155Aand 7018 3/32" at 90A.This time I went very slowly, kept the arc as short as I could and decreased the drag angle to 20-25 degrees plus/minus.I don't want to load this reply with tons of photos... although I certainly have them... so I'll just include wide shots of my 6013A/B and 6011A/B welds.Picture 6013A shows a flat bead, but it's completely broken every inch of so by slag. This isn't the wormhole stuff I got before. It's not running horizontally across the top or bottom. It's a round bulls eye of slag.6013B has fewer slag inclusions and the ones I see are smaller, but they once again run mostly across the top of the weld.6011A shows how hard it was for me to control things. The bead starts lumpy and inconsistent. Toward the middle, it flattens out and I see some serious undercutting. At the far right, I somehow have a combination of undercutting and lumpiness.6011B is more consistent, although pretty flat... which seems to indicate things are too hot. It's deeply undercut along the top and the bottom. I have close-ups of all of these welds if someone wants to get a closer look. ToolSteelbut they Attached Images
Reply:Where you located ? If you are close to me,[Northern Illinois] come over or we'll meet and I'll give you some 6010 and 7018 to play with.Hi Toolsteel,check out this video from Chucke2009. I think this has helped me with my 6013 adventures[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2B36psoNQ4[/ame]You will probably find different brands of 6013 are like chalk and cheese. With my Kobe RB26 I can reduce the amps and do vertical up. The slag actually runs down and you think the weld must be horrible but underneath the weld can look OK (some days they look reasonable ). If I try with a 6013 rod called Satincraft 13 it just makes a complete mess, although they are nice on the flat. Some seem to penetrate better and have a more fluid slag, while other slags seem incredibly thick and viscous. So play with different brands and you might find there's one that is right for you.I agree with the point made about getting the puddle formed first ACROSS the two peices of metal at the start. The 6013 seem to "flow" better once the weld is warmed up so focussing on getting the puddle in place at the beginning is a good start. It's easy to go too fast stick welding.My problems seem to come if I let the flux get ahead of the weld puddle. A momentary movement of the rod tip and the flux can run over the top of the weld puddle. The Youtube video metioned above focusses a lot of keeping the slag pushed back.Play with different arc length, different rod angles, and try and see what is the weld puddle and what is the flux. Deliberately go two fast so you get those weld beads on each side of the weld with the flux inbetween, and you'll actually get to learn what it looks like while you are welding. I think one of the hardest parts of stick welding is reading what is puddle and what is flux.I personally find 6013 rods a bit challenging to weld with because of the slag problems. I feel I have to have good control at all times to win the war against the thick heavy slag. On the other hand I find the 6011s just blast through anything and slag problems just don't seem to exist, but they don't leave a nice looking weld. I have good and bad welds with 6013. It seems easy when I'm in a comfortable position and have a good view of the weld but I can stuff up when access is awkward and I'm looking at the weld at a less than ideal angle or at a distance. Your welds look like there's a lot of variation in your travel speed, and a bit of wavering about. With time you'll get more steady and as you start focussing on the puddle you'll be welding based on that rather than just moving along and seeing what it's like afterwards.All the above words said as an amateur myself. Keep at it, you will get better and it's quite rewarding.Another point, does your welding mask give you a nice clear view of the weld. That makes a big difference if you can clearly see what's happening.Keith.