Same Weld, Different Welder, Different Helmet Settings?

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I have two welders in my garage right now, and I'm switching back and forth, to see which one I like better and just to learn how things work.  One is my Syncrowave 180, and the other is a Diversion 165.  Something strange ( and slightly painful ) just happened, which I don't understand, so I'm here to ask experts.   I setup two of the same weld ( 1/16th steel scrap, lap weld ).  I hit the first with the Sync, and everything was fine.  I switched to the Diversion, using the same tungsten and amperage ( well, close, since the Diversion dial is vague ).  Also, I'm using a foot pedal with each unit, so amps are not precise anyway.  I had max set to ~80, and was probably around 3/4 throttle.   I didn't change anything on my helmet, which is an HTP Striker CFB that I picked up from HTP a few weeks ago.  It was relatively cheap ( $75 ) but has worked fine since I got it.  It is set to "middle" delay, maximum sensitivity, and DIN 11... "weld" mode obviously.   When I made the second weld, with the Diversion, my helmet barely darkened at all.  I was just able to see enough to weld for a couple inches, but I was left with a decent spot in my vision afterwards.  It's gone now, but I'm not anxious to repeat that experiment.   My question is, is it possible that the same weld should require completely different settings on my helmet ( ie cranked up to DIN 13 ), just because I switched power sources?  Or is my helmet broken?  Or both?   I'm going to re-try the experiment ( carefully ) with the Sync in a few minutes, and see what happens with the helmet.   Thanks.__David Hillman
Reply:Your hood may not have the sensitivity to react to an inverter based welder.
Reply:Some auto darkening hoods don't react well to TIG welding, especially low amp TIG. The smoother the arc, the worse it is. You need a hood with a TIG setting.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jay OYour hood may not have the sensitivity to react to an inverter based welder.
Reply:Originally Posted by David HillmanThat's kind of what I was wondering about.  I don't really understand how the arc can be so different, though.    Are there other hood models which are known to only work with transformers?  I'm probably going to take this hood back on Monday, and I'm sure they are going to think I'm crazy when I explain why.      Thanks.
Reply:Thanks... learn something every day.  Any idea about the Jackson W40 Element?  I can't tell if it's a new or earlier model.   Hi-jacking my own thread now... say, what's Bonnie doing these days?  Reading reports from Bonneville on the Alfa list and other places was one of the fires under my dream to make a land speed run someday.  I haven't had an Alfa in years, though so I don't hear any news anymore.  I thought I was going to start helping build a friend's car this year, but that project has fallen apart and he sold the chassis.__David Hillman
Reply:Originally Posted by David HillmanThanks... learn something every day.  Any idea about the Jackson W40 Element?  I can't tell if it's a new or earlier model.
Reply:Originally Posted by 4sfedI don't know about that one . . . maybe they will let you test it.  It's been 7 or 8 years.  Maybe all the current Jackson production is okay.
Reply:Tranny type machines operate at 60 hz but inverter machines take that 60 hz and increase to something like 20,000 hz and somewhere in there your hood may not sense it. I could be wrong.
Reply:I hate getting flashed!  I only use and old school flip down lid. I don't trust electric lids to darken in time, right darkness, and not lighten up when shadowed.
Reply:Usually, the Tig hood problems are with low amperage and sensitivity.  There should be no other problems as the sensors respond to the light from the arc, not frequency of the arc.  Maybe your sensors were blocked somehow.  Some hoods have 4 sensors, others just 2.  The 4 will allow better pickup without masking due to position.  The inverter frequencies are internal to the machine for better efficiency in power conversion.  When welding, DC is still DC whether from the inverter or a transformer machine.
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTI hate getting flashed!  I only use and old school flip down lid. I don't trust electric lids to darken in time, right darkness, and not lighten up when shadowed.
Reply:This helmet has four sensors, which is one of the reasons I bought it.  I can't see how all four could've been blocked... only when I used the Diversion.  It worked fine in the same position minutes earlier with the Sync.   And there's no realistic way those sensors could've been blocked anyway.  I was sitting on a stool, welding coupons flat on my table.Last edited by David Hillman; 05-08-2011 at 10:42 AM.__David Hillman
Reply:Originally Posted by David HillmanThis helmet has four sensors, which is one of the reasons I bought it.  I can't see how all four could've been blocked... only when I used the Diversion.  It worked fine in the same position minutes earlier with the Sync.   And there's no realistic way those sensors could've been blocked anyway.  I was sitting on a stool, welding coupons flat on my table.
Reply:Originally Posted by GerryR Some hoods have 4 sensors, others just 2.  The 4 will allow better pickup without masking due to position.  The inverter frequencies are internal to the machine for better efficiency in power conversion.  When welding, DC is still DC whether from the inverter or a transformer machine.
Reply:I'd be very interested in what would cause it.  Most of what I have seen in hood advertising is a sensitivity adjustment if it is to be used with tig.  An interesting aspect that you bring up, though.  Even though the output source is DC, once the arc is struck, there is a multitude of high- frequency hash generated in the arc, which would be in the light generated by the arc.  If the manufactureres provide some source of filtering to "smooth out" the light response of the electronics, I guess that is a possibility of why one hood may react differently than another.  I would think that any arc-generated noise would be the same in either case, but never having put an O'scope on the electronics, I could be totally wrong.
Reply:Originally Posted by GerryR I would think that any arc-generated noise would be the same in either case, but never having put an O'scope on the electronics, I could be totally wrong.
Reply:I was really refering to the output of the photosensor as it responds to the arc, but after thinking about this a little more, I'm leaning toward something in the actual electronics of the hood that is being interfered with by the inverter electronics that is preventing it from responding to the photosensor input, like noise that is causing a continual reset, or the like.  However, this is just conjecture, not knowing the ADF design and not being able to hook it up to a scope.
Reply:David, a couple of thoughts along the lines of possible interference.  Make sure your Diversion is properly grounded (check that the case is at earth ground).  Also, try welding as far from the unit as your cables will allow.  If EMI from the Diversion is messing up the hood, the added separation might allow it to work and will tell you what is going on.
Reply:Originally Posted by GerryRIn this case, I would be looking at the sensitivity adjustment or it may just be a defective helmet.  (I thought the Striker CF only had 2 sensors (?).)
Reply:Returned helmet to HTP today.  They didn't seem too surprised, and in hindsight, I guess I shouldn't be either.  It's a cheap helmet, a mistake I won't make again.  For the record, Jackson DOES NOT make the Striker CFB.  They do make the higher-end Striker models ( which say "Jackson" right across the chin ).   It's a little bit disconcerting that some helmets aren't, apparently, tested all that much.  I would have thought that a helmet advertised as suitable for TIG down to 20a or whatever, would darken when tigging at 60-100a.  I don't like testing other peoples' equipment with my eyes!   Damn, it took me a while to settle on that helmet the first time, now I have to shop around again.__David Hillman
Reply:I've dealt with HTP (USA Weld) and found them great to deal with.  Glad you got it staightened out with them.  It's funny that their catalog says that helmet has two sensors, their website says it has four sensors, but the pictures on their website and in their catalog both show only two sensors.  Well, sorry you had problems, but it is a good heads-up for everyone else.  I know they are expensive, but the Miller Digital Elite is what I use mostly now, and I TIG small parts in the 7 to 25 amp range quite frequently, as well as the higher amperage 125 to 175 range.  No problems with the hood at all.
Reply:HTP has been nothing but top notch in my several dealings with them, including, for example, me showing up just after closing time on a Friday afternoon, and finding the door locked... but having the only guy in the building, THE BOSS, come out and help with a stupid little order for some consumables.   Unfortunately, I don't like the lack of neck protection on any of their Jackson-made helmets.  That was another selling point for the Striker CFB.  I checked out all their other helmets while returning mine today, but didn't find one I want.   I think I'm going to go buy a Speedglas 9002 tomorrow, unless someone convinces me that a 9100 is just as good for my use.__David Hillman
Reply:David, everyone is a little different, so this may not apply and only looking through a hood will you know for sure.  I had a Speedglas (top-of-the-line model) which I sold so I could get the Digital Elite.  The contrast was much better for my eyes than the Speedglas, and because I do a lot of low amperage welding, I needed to get to a shade 7 and 8, which the DE could do.  Just something to think about.
Reply:dim the lights a little in your shop and see if that helps. The inverter machines can hold a smoother arc at less amps and your hood may not be sensing the arc transition.Problem solved.  Like many problems, it just required the application of money    I bought a Speedglas 9002X today, and just tested it ( with both machines ).  It works perfectly, and it's amazing how much more I can see in lightened state, nevermind darkened.  Both are vastly better than my previous cheap hood.  So far, the only things I liked better about the Striker were; the price  and it flipped better.  Even though I'm wearing an AD helmet, I have a tendency to flip it up constantly, even to the point of nodding it down before welding, like it was a fixed shade.  The Striker went up and down better, but that's kind-of not-the-point for an AD helmet.   I can see all kinds of puddle details that I had never knew where there, previously.  I know you can't buy skill, but I'm a better welder today than yesterday just because I can see what the heck is going on, even if I don't yet know why or how.   Gerry, I will at some point have to try some other hoods to see if one suits me better, but for the time being, and probably the next year of practice, I can see more than I know what do with, which should keep me busy.   Thanks.Last edited by David Hillman; 05-10-2011 at 11:51 PM.Reason: typo__David Hillman
Reply:Originally Posted by 4sfedYou're protected from the harmful radiation even if the lens doesn't darken, and with some experience you'll learn how to adjust the sensitivity and delay so you don't get flashed.  A good 4-sensor lens just might save you time and prevent that pain in the neck from flipping the lens down.
Reply:Originally Posted by VPT . . . as long as I didn't forget to flip it down it has never allowed me to get flashed.
Reply:Originally Posted by 4sfedMaybe you'll change your mind when you're older and your memory begins to fail -jim