6013 vs 7018 rods

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Mainly welding on 1/4" angle iron and some 3/8" steel.  Not critical, but nothing I care to have fail.  Using a Lincoln Electric Precision TIG 225 in stick mode.   I keep reading how critical is it to keep the 7018 rods dry and free of moisture and to avoid high humidity.  I have some unopened rods, and kinda feel like opening them and not using them all will render them useless.  I have some PVC tubes made for various rods.  Would simply storing them insdie these be fine? Or, add some packets of dessiccant silica gel crytals be sufficient?  Our humidity gets into the 90% and above area during the summer months, so I am wondering if I may be better off using a 6013 rod?  When looking on several sites for info on different rods, different sizes and the recommened amperage ranges for use, I get pretty different findings.  Should I go to the manufacturer's website for accurate data, or go by data from the welding machine manufacturer?  Or, some other source?Thanks for the info.
Reply:If its not critical, 6013 will work.  Its a personal thing.  I have both, but prefer how 7018 runs.  I have used 7018 for years and just got a rod drier last year.  It does run better when dried, but......It also has to do with what works best on YOUR machine and the operator.You could also try 7014.  Its a nice rod.More of a personal preference than anything else.  When applied correctly, any of the above rods will be stronger than you need.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I'm curious to hear what some of the older guys have to say on this one.Before I knew any better I used old wet 7018 on a number of things that have not broken yet. I'm also pretty sure I've run some 11018 of questionable storage conditions on some highly abused equipment, and have not had to explain any failures. In hindsight, wet rods are much harder to run, but if I was happy with the welds they seem to hold up. I now take care to keep my low hydrogen stuff as dry as possible, but would also like to know what the real risks are.
Reply:Even if they get wet, they can be dried out.  Storing them in a sealed tube is always a good idea.  If it's a huge concern, simply throw them in the oven at 200 for 15-20 minutes to drive the moisture out.  This is true with any rod.ScottHaul a bike without straps - visit  www.mxtras.com  to see how!
Reply:If you have wet or damp 70-18 (110-18 ) any low hydrogen, run some practice beads on some scrap , and note how well  or  bad it welds . Then bake it in your oven an hour  or more ,(At about 300 degrees)depending on how damp you THINK it is. Then run another bead  (weld ) with the rebaked rod . You might notice a TREMENDOUS  change for the better.  I know I have .Then , after I take it out of the oven, still hot , I put it in a plastic rod can, or an aluminum can , put the lid or cap on , then tape it sealed . might even PRE-heat the can hot enough it's almost too hot to touch , before putting in the rod . sure stays dry that way .[SIZE="5"Yardbird"
Reply:I prefer lo-hy and buy it in 50# cans. I also use a 50# rod oven. What won't go in the oven when I peel a fresh can open goes in a rod tube like Roy said, taped with good 3M electrical tape.Normally all a rod will get is humidity and can be re-dried. If I actually get rod WET then it goes in the scrap bucket. Anything I have to re-bake becomes "general purpose" rod.Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:I try to run 7018's for practice at home and I have no rod oven. Even stored in tubes I dont use them anymore unless I bake them for an hour before I weld. night and day difference but it gets to be a pain...  So I just started using 6013's and 7014's for everything. I like the 18's but cant see myself using them much untill I buy a rod oven. the 6013's and 7014's hold up really good with no special prep work so they are my rods of choice and think either should work fine for you.I like to party!
Reply:Actually , i mistreat some of my 70-18 (the 1/8 size) . it's in an open can -50 lb.- on a bench in my garage , been open 3 or 4 years , stays dry ENOUGH to weld fine. Mind you, i would not use this in a x-ray weld test - but, for ordinary use , like welding on backhoe buckets , loader buckets, etc.  , it's done well. I usually don't notice any pinholes , if i do, thats when i'll dry it in the kitchen oven. I guess our humidity is not that bad ,in the Napa Valley. (i don't weld much anymore )[SIZE="5"Yardbird"
Reply:according to licoln, its 2 hours @ 250.  More time is fine, lower heat for a longer time will not make up the difference.   I don't keep my oven plugged in all the time, it has a foam gasket on the door.Daddy, I guess I am an older guy, I have had the same results as you.  It sure does run better fresh out of the oven but.....DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by David Raccording to licoln, its 2 hours @ 250.
Reply:Here's the deal, the coating on low hydrogen rod was designed to help prevent hydrogen induced cracking in "higher strength" steels.  If the rod is damp, hydrogen will be introduced into the weld and HAZ, and may cause cracking.  The coating ingredients produce proper shielding gas for the weld when the coating is kept dry.On the other hand, cellulose electrodes like 6011 etc. are purposely designed to contain 2 to 3% free moisture in order to produce the proper shielding gas in the arc.  The moisture in these rods mainly helps produce the sheilding gas, although some hydrogen may enter the weld, so these rods are not specified for critical high strength welds.  These rods are not designed to be dried.According to the AWS D1.1 Structural Welding Code, this is how to properly store and use 7018.1. Shall stored at temperature of at least 250 F.2. If exposed to atmosphere for more that 4 hours must be redried (baked).3. Bake for at least 2 hours at 500 to 800 F.4. Electodes shall be rebaked no more than once.5. Electrodes that have been wet shall not be used.Obviously, people use 7018 all the time which has not been stored as recommended and is therefore damp.  Basically, if a low hydrogen rod such as 7018 has been specified for a job, the intent is that it be properly stored and dry.  If you don't care to do this properly, you are at risk of producing hydrogen cracking, depending on the steel alloy and welding conditions.So, if you have a non-critical weld on mild steel, use your damp 7018 if you want.Hydrogen induced cracking is a brittle fracture also called "cold cracking", "delayed cracking", and "underbead cracking", because it can generally occurs quite some time after the weld is cold, in the HAZ of the weld.  You'll know it when you hear a sharp "ping" ring from your weldment. Attached Images
Reply:I live in New Orleans where the humidity is always high and I don't have an oven. I buy Lincoln Excalibur in 50lb cans. When I open them I fill my 10lb o-ringed rod tube and then seal the can with heavy plastic sheeting and duct tape. I do the same with my 7024. I haven't had any problems with moisture from the cans, the same can't be said from the tube though. If I were required to use them for code work then I would get an oven. Most of the work I do with them is seriously abused and I have had no problems. I guarantee the work and feel comfortable doing so.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:For mild steel a 6013 will be all you need.  I personally run mainly 7018, but it is completely personal preference.  Alot of times I use the 7018 even though a 6013, 7014 would work fine.  Just what you get used to.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Originally Posted by TxDocMainly welding on 1/4" angle iron and some 3/8" steel.  Not critical, but nothing I care to have fail.  Using a Lincoln Electric Precision TIG 225 in stick mode.   I keep reading how critical is it to keep the 7018 rods dry and free of moisture and to avoid high humidity.  I have some unopened rods, and kinda feel like opening them and not using them all will render them useless.  I have some PVC tubes made for various rods.  Would simply storing them insdie these be fine? Or, add some packets of dessiccant silica gel crytals be sufficient?  Our humidity gets into the 90% and above area during the summer months, so I am wondering if I may be better off using a 6013 rod?  When looking on several sites for info on different rods, different sizes and the recommened amperage ranges for use, I get pretty different findings.  Should I go to the manufacturer's website for accurate data, or go by data from the welding machine manufacturer?  Or, some other source?Thanks for the info.
Reply:Originally Posted by daddyI'm curious to hear what some of the older guys have to say on this one.Before I knew any better I used old wet 7018 on a number of things that have not broken yet. I'm also pretty sure I've run some 11018 of questionable storage conditions on some highly abused equipment, and have not had to explain any failures. In hindsight, wet rods are much harder to run, but if I was happy with the welds they seem to hold up. I now take care to keep my low hydrogen stuff as dry as possible, but would also like to know what the real risks are.
Reply:I used to hear 6011 and 6013 refered to as "farmer rods" by a lot of welders that considered themselves as real hotshot welders. Every rod has a use. I always preferred low hydrogen (7018) over 6013 because it was more useful for the type of work I did. Lots of hi-pressure piping and lots of magnitized stuff. When I first went into business I needed some pipe clamps and didn't have any money to buy any. I built mine, 2, 2 1'2, 3, and 4 inch out of 3/4" magnitized sucker rod. I had some 6013 so I used that on the 2" clamp as an experiment to see if it would hold. It did so I built the others with it too. I built them in 1970 and have used them ever since. None of them have ever broke. That makes me think 6013 is pretty good stuff even though I still use 7018 and haven't bought any 6013 since I used up what I built the clamps with.
Reply:I have a whole bunch of old, loose 10018, 9018 and 7018 rods.  I don't use them for critical welds, but they have many uses.  Sticking stuff onto bases or stands is one of them.  A full bead will warp the bottom plate anyway.  I just made a billet of pallet strapping and bandsaw blades.  The old 10018 was just fine.  There were a few holes in the beginning of the bead, but that doesn't matter.  As soon as the first hit sticks the billet the welds are unnecessary (except the one for the porter bar).  It is funny how easy the weld moves under the hammer compared to the billet, due to the inferior steel quality.  After the blank is forged, you grind off all that weld metal anyway.  Any rod will do (not brazing rod ).
Reply:pulser is the best reply here I've seen.  It's all about hydrogen embrittlement and inclusion.  The low hydrogen rods are intended to avoid the problems that other rods incur, which is the addition of hydrogen to the weld area.  If you get them wet, they no longer provide those properties and it can cause the hydrogen to enter the weld, which on some high strength steels will cause it to crack.  I'm pretty sure it can be said that a humid 7018 is at least as good as eg a 6013.  And if you're just welding mild steel, shouldn't cause any problems.I have read also that heating the weld for 8 hours or something at around 800F (?? from memory) will allow the hydrogen to escape.See also:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement
Reply:Originally Posted by Slowpulser is the best reply here I've seen.  It's all about hydrogen embrittlement and inclusion.  The low hydrogen rods are intended to avoid the problems that other rods incur, which is the addition of hydrogen to the weld area.  If you get them wet, they no longer provide those properties and it can cause the hydrogen to enter the weld, which on some high strength steels will cause it to crack.  I'm pretty sure it can be said that a humid 7018 is at least as good as eg a 6013.  And if you're just welding mild steel, shouldn't cause any problems.I have read also that heating the weld for 8 hours or something at around 800F (?? from memory) will allow the hydrogen to escape.See also:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement
Reply:Thanks for all the replies. I have printed them out, so I can spend more time re-reading. Have a great weekend!
Reply:I’v used 7018 for years on every thing never put the rod in an oven until we became a code shop; we have to keep the rod in an oven. The deference's I have noticed is the rod not kept in the oven spit and popped and had more spatter, When X-rayed there was more porosity in the weld. The oven rod, smooth running  (0) defects. I use only Lincoln rod and use there recommend setting end then tweaks them to fit whatever I'm welding.
Reply:I used to prefer Atomarc 7018 when it was made in the US. I was welding a lot of sch. 180 pipe and the flux was a little easier to get off than Lincoln's Jetweld 7018. Then they moved production to Mexico and it didn't take me long to quit Atomarc. Now as far as I'm concerned ( you do know about opinions?) Lincoln's Excalibur is the best stuff out there. That does not include their 7018AC. Bought 10 pounds of it one time when the WS was out of Excalibur. That was enough to do me. Probably 90% of my welding has been with 7018.
Reply:This conversation is really cool...The only thing I recall with 7018 and diffrent conditions was that it would weld OK untill the flux would fall off in the middle of a choice weld like the rod was bent but was not..But that was few and far between..I'm sure the moisture factor had something to do with it anyway..We have no special storage area..The conditions are what they are..I'm pretty sure everyone else has their rods in a correct atmospheric condition at all times.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by OldtimerI used to prefer Atomarc 7018 when it was made in the US. I was welding a lot of sch. 180 pipe and the flux was a little easier to get off than Lincoln's Jetweld 7018. Then they moved production to Mexico and it didn't take me long to quit Atomarc.
Reply:I agree, I refuse to use the Atom-arc rods.  I have been pleased with the murex 7018MRI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......No wonder I got 20 lbs of 3/16 7018 Atom Arc dirt cheap.  Its the only 3/16 I have run, nothing great.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Zapster, that is one of the problems with Atomarc. Its not uncommon to open up a new box and a third will have the flux cracked off the ends. Another was it's annoying habit of having a good bead going and it just make a sputter and stick. I hate that that. Also it seems really hard to stike an arc and get a bead going withput a porous mess right at the start. I like Airco and Murex but they haven't been available at LWS for years. Excalibur is still better in my opinion.
Reply:well lads i may as well speak up on my rod of preference,just lately our company started work on an incinerator plant,this is keeping me in the shop,and there is plenty to do.ive been playing myself tig, 6010, and 6013 roots.ill just post pics as they come.this job has pipe 4 to 16 inch .i know that most is in position but i have welded some of the more awkward stuff 5g and i think i can show some root shots.by the way good to see you back jackson. ps these are 6013. pipefitter
Reply:i am going to be able to cap like that again real soon.   nice welds pipe fitter.
Reply:That is the way it is supposed to look. Good job.
Reply:Atom arc is all they wanted to use when I worked construction. We had just started a plant and I told the QC in charge of purchasing consumables to get rid of it and get some excalibur, or anything else for that matter because there would be problems on x-ray. Twentynine of thirty welders were complaining about the rod, but because one said he had no problems they stayed with it. First bunch of x-rays I was gone, too many defects (a total of two out of 300 welds). I later found out it had nothing to do with my welding, but with a total of 3000 welds and a 90% failure rate there was a really big investigation and they changed to Excalibur. I also like McKay, Harris and Uni.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Originally Posted by pulserHere's the deal, the coating on low hydrogen rod was designed to help prevent hydrogen induced cracking in "higher strength" steels.  If the rod is damp, hydrogen will be introduced into the weld and HAZ, and may cause cracking.  The coating ingredients produce proper shielding gas for the weld when the coating is kept dry.On the other hand, cellulose electrodes like 6011 etc. are purposely designed to contain 2 to 3% free moisture in order to produce the proper shielding gas in the arc.  The moisture in these rods mainly helps produce the sheilding gas, although some hydrogen may enter the weld, so these rods are not specified for critical high strength welds.  These rods are not designed to be dried.According to the AWS D1.1 Structural Welding Code, this is how to properly store and use 7018.1. Shall stored at temperature of at least 250 F.2. If exposed to atmosphere for more that 4 hours must be redried (baked).3. Bake for at least 2 hours at 500 to 800 F.4. Electodes shall be rebaked no more than once.5. Electrodes that have been wet shall not be used.Obviously, people use 7018 all the time which has not been stored as recommended and is therefore damp.  Basically, if a low hydrogen rod such as 7018 has been specified for a job, the intent is that it be properly stored and dry.  If you don't care to do this properly, you are at risk of producing hydrogen cracking, depending on the steel alloy and welding conditions.So, if you have a non-critical weld on mild steel, use your damp 7018 if you want.Hydrogen induced cracking is a brittle fracture also called "cold cracking", "delayed cracking", and "underbead cracking", because it can generally occurs quite some time after the weld is cold, in the HAZ of the weld.  You'll know it when you hear a sharp "ping" ring from your weldment.
Reply:Originally Posted by Roy HodgesIf you have wet or damp 70-18 (110-18 ) any low hydrogen, run some practice beads on some scrap , and note how well  or  bad it welds . Then bake it in your oven an hour  or more ,(At about 300 degrees)depending on how damp you THINK it is. Then run another bead  (weld ) with the rebaked rod . You might notice a TREMENDOUS  change for the better.  I know I have .Then , after I take it out of the oven, still hot , I put it in a plastic rod can, or an aluminum can , put the lid or cap on , then tape it sealed . might even PRE-heat the can hot enough it's almost too hot to touch , before putting in the rod . sure stays dry that way .
Reply:Probably works good. Self dispensing out the bottomMillermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer