Unions.... Explain them please?

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Hello! I've done a search about the differences between union and non union jobs and I still seem to be confused? So I was wondering if anyone could give me a thorough explanation on Union or non union jobs and some facts on which is the better option. I know this might be a question that inflames some forum members but my intentions aren't too make someone have a crappy night. Just trying to learn as much as I can. From what I know I see unions as the guys that go around protecting workers wages and human rights. If school has taught me right, unions started around the industrial revolution did they not? Why is it years later they're still around? Are union jobs better than non union jobs?
Reply:aav1996"I've done a search about the differences between union and non union jobs and I still seem to be confused?" Your question is serious - Consider these readings as a primer:Adam Smith's  -  The Wealth of Nationshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_NationsKarl Marx  -  Das Kapitalhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_KapitalIgnore  -  Mein Kampf  -  World History's most recent labor failure.Start with these, and read 'all the way through' to  -  todays:Levitt & Dubner's  -  Pop Magnus  -  Freakonomicshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreakonomicsThese readings will give you some idea why your question - is still a question. Opusp.s.Without unions America would never have had a Middle Class - albeit its fade.Last edited by OPUS FERRO; 10-16-2013 at 10:57 PM.Reason: ref.
Reply:This has been discussed a lot lately. If you search the forum (top right of the website) you can find information on these conversations.The question isn't which is better, but which is better for you. To be honest, to me, there isn't much of a difference between the two. The only reason I recommend the unions to anybody are for the apprenticeship programs. Valuable on the job and classroom (paid) training. And you learn so much more than just welding. "The power of labor unions rests in their two main tools of influence: restricting labor supply and increasing labor demand. Some economists compare them to cartels. Through collective bargaining, unions negotiate the wages that employers will pay. Unions ask for a higher wage than the equilibrium wage (found at the intersect of the labor supply and labor demand curves), but this can lower the hours demanded by employers. Since a higher wage rate equates to less work per dollar, unions often face problems when negotiating higher wages and instead will often focus on increasing the demand for labor."
Reply:Originally Posted by akabadnewsThis has been discussed a lot lately. If you search the forum (top right of the website) you can find information on these conversations.The question isn't which is better, but which is better for you. To be honest, to me, there isn't much of a difference between the two. The only reason I recommend the unions to anybody are for the apprenticeship programs. Valuable on the job and classroom (paid) training. And you learn so much more than just welding. "The power of labor unions rests in their two main tools of influence: restricting labor supply and increasing labor demand. Some economists compare them to cartels. Through collective bargaining, unions negotiate the wages that employers will pay. Unions ask for a higher wage than the equilibrium wage (found at the intersect of the labor supply and labor demand curves), but this can lower the hours demanded by employers. Since a higher wage rate equates to less work per dollar, unions often face problems when negotiating higher wages and instead will often focus on increasing the demand for labor."
Reply:I do not know currently if there are non union employers that provide a pension and health care when you retire. My UNION is providing me with the same health care being retired for around $300 a month for me and my wife. Besides a pension that is more then many guys make here.You may not think about this when your young but really makes a difference in later years.
Reply:Originally Posted by BD1I do not know currently if there are non union employers that provide a pension and health care when you retire. My UNION is providing me with the same health care being retired for around $300 a month for me and my wife. Besides a pension that is more then many guys make here.You may not think about this when your young but really makes a difference in later years.
Reply:Obama care doesn't apply to anyone that already has insurance- therefore since he has insurance it doesn't matter for him.Google pension Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERROaav1996"I've done a search about the differences between union and non union jobs and I still seem to be confused?" Your question is serious - Consider these readings as a primer:Adam Smith's  -  The Wealth of Nationshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_NationsKarl Marx  -  Das Kapitalhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_KapitalIgnore  -  Mein Kampf  -  World History's most recent labor failure.Start with these, and read 'all the way through' to  -  todays:Levitt & Dubner's  -  Pop Magnus  -  Freakonomicshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreakonomicsThese readings will give you some idea why your question - is still a question. Opusp.s.Without unions America would never have had a Middle Class - albeit its fade.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Obama care doesn't apply to anyone that already has insurance- therefore since he has insurance it doesn't matter for him.Google pension
Reply:aav1996  -  And the welding relevance  is . . .Your question is deeper than your Robo answers - and your premise veils your knowledge and intent.AKA - Clupea harengus le rouge.Opusp.s.   Say hello to HALLast edited by OPUS FERRO; 10-17-2013 at 01:32 AM.Reason: ling.
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERROaav1996AKA - Clupea harengus le rouge.Opus
Reply:" ...My summary, there is no easy, correct, irrefutable answer on unions. ..."In absolute terms that is a very true statement.However, we are trying to help a young person make a decesion that will impact the rest of his working life.Disclaimer: I work for a union benefit office, but I am not a member of the union. The union 'answer' for anybody comes down to how well they can protect themselves from their employer: - Can you negotiate a good wage & benefits package before you start working for them? - Can you set up a pension plan that will be there when you want to stop the daily grind? - Can you pay for health care coverage for you (and your family, when that happens) regardless of who you are working for? - Can you find re-emplyment within your skills set when work slows down or the employer goes out of business?If you can answer "yes" to all of these questions then joining a union may not be for you.However, if you want someone else to be responsible for these aspects of working life, regardless of who is your employer then join the union, participate in the meetings and have a kind of piece of mind that non-union workers will never know.So the answer is a personal one, based on whether you feel the need for the the kind of protection and stability a good union offers. But, if you are of 'go-getter' or are particularly individualistic the constraints of by union membership may not be for you.Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:I have not received any change on my health care. Obama care should not apply to me. My pension retirement fund is set up where the EMPLOYER pays a dollar amount to the union toward pension and welfare for each hour worked. It does not come from my check. For ever hour you work  each year it goes to being a credit. So many hours equal one credit. Each credit represents your dollar amount in money received each month upon retirement. If you have 40 credits and each is worth say a $ 100.00 , you would receive a check for $ 4000.00 a month. This is not a 401 K. The Employer contributes into that too for every hour you work. You can also have a percentage taken from your check too. It doesn't matter how many different employers you have in a lifetime, THEY ALL PAY. Each UNION has it's own policy. Mine is awesome !
Reply:I wanted to comment but have decided to just enjoy my popcorn and watch the show...- MondoMember, AWSLincoln ProMIG 140Lincoln AC TombstoneCraftsman Lathe 12 x 24 c1935Atlas MFC Horizontal MillCraftsman Commercial Lathe 12 x 36 c1970- - - I'll just keep on keepin' on.
Reply:Originally Posted by BD1I have not received any change on my health care. Obama care should not apply to me.... Each UNION has it's own policy. Mine is awesome !
Reply:Originally Posted by mike837goBad news for you. Obamacare has already impacted union welfare plans. Several years ago, all existing plans had to start covering offspring (natural and adopted) of the covered member up to age 26. The federal definintions and groupings of different kinds of coverage has caused certain changes in what is and isn't covered by the union's plan.And there is more to come.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonYes, much more to come. No one even knows the extent of ObammaCare.
Reply:At the risk of becoming embroiled in an argument, I'll contribute my opinion to the discussion...What follows is my OPINION and mine alone.  Let the OP make of it what he will.  If you disagree with me, please agree to disagree privately, and do not quote my posting in an attempt to refute my opinion or change my mind.  If you have a different perspective, please share it without using my post as the basis for an argument.I believe (I do not state this as fact because I do not know with certainty) that unions are an evolution of and merger of the old system of guilds of tradesmen with certain necessities created by the industrial revolution.  Guilds in the middle ages were groups of tradesmen formed for mutual benefit and protection.  Guilds defined who was skilled at a particular trade, ensured that apprentices(new tradesmen) were given proper training, and ensured that journeymen and craftsmasters conducted their business with some integrity and honesty.  Guilds also acted to protect their members from unfair manipulation by nobility, governments, and in the case of European society, explotation by religious institutions.  In return, guild members paid money to the guild and agreed to follow guild rules.Over centuries, governments in western society evolved away from monarchies and feudal systems to democratic republics or limited monarchies that provided certain basic rights to individual citizens.  Guilds were no longer vital as individuals were able to better fend for themselves.  Then the industrial revolution started and changed the fundamental economies of most western nations.  Farming had been the major source of work for most people.  But advances in efficiency meant that fewer farmers could produce enough food for everyone.  Factories that paid workers in currency became commonplace.  Working conditions were bad, as technology and economics outpaced society and government.  Factory owners made little or no provision for worker safety.  Hours were long and hard, work was exceedingly dangerous.  Children were employed and for some jobs even preferred over adults.  It wasn't uncommon for factory workers to work 14 hours a day, 6 days a week.Unions evolved out of a need for workers to gather the power needed to negotiate for safer working conditions and better pay.  By controlling who worked, when they worked, and how much pay they received, unions could negotiate on level footing with business owners.  If this sounds simple and easy, do some research into the conflict between coal mining companies and miners in the Appalachian Mountains of West Virginia, Kentucky, and Tennessee during the early 1900s.  Or Ford Motor Company and the Pinkerton men who busted unions for Henry Ford.You need to realize that the conflict between business, union employees, and everyone else has plenty of blame to go around on all sides.  It's complicated and talking about unions means talking about politics, religion, and philosophy all at once.  Sex is about the only taboo subject that doesn't come up regularly in a conversation about unions.Today many would say that the pendulum has swung back and that workers are better shielded by law and social norms than they were 100 years ago.  Unions are on the decline because of this.  Unions are fighting this decline using a variety of strategies and tactics.Today, unions strive to ensure a good wage for their members, provide health care benefits, and a means of saving for retirement.  Unions ensure a safe work environment and negotiate very specific rules with employers for what tasks union members perform for their pay.  The union also provides a channel for communicating problems to their employers.  The employers who hire union employees pay for all of this.  The union members pay a small portion of their earnings back to the union to pay for all the people who make a union function.  Unions provide training for new members and generally ensure that their members perform work to minimum standards.  For employers this means that although union labor is expensive, it generally is good quality labor and the union can provide more or less people on short notice.  It can be a very good arrangement for union members.  In my experience, Union jobs tend to be safer, better managed, and more efficient as a result.  When one job is done, the union leadership has been working in the background to find another job or jobs for it's members to do.  Local union chapters will support their fellows by sharing workload.  If a big job comes to a union hall in a big city, and they don't have enough members to staff the job, they'll invite other union halls to send unemployed workers or even invite non-union workers to work on the job.On the other hand, Unions are made up of people; and people are imperfect, flawed.  Unions can be hotbeds of protectionism, nepotism, favoritism, corruption, and greed.  Local chapters vary and if you're going to be a union member you need to pay attention to what union management is saying and doing in your name and with your dues.  Unions have been found bribing politicians and local officials, using blackmail to win work contracts, and using violence to intimidate business owners and non-union workers.  I suspect they feel justified in doing so because every non-union job or worker erodes their power base for negotiating pay and benefits for the members.  A union is only satisfied if 100% of the workers are members of the union and working full time.  Bad union leadership will not protect their workers safety, will favor some workers over others(with and without just cause). This could go on a lot longer... So let me see if I can get to the heart of your question...IN GENERAL, If you work for an employer who does not hire union employees:1 you get pay and benefits that are decided primarily by the employer.  Benefits might include insurance and some kind of subsidy for retirement.  If you don't like them, it's up to you and you alone to improve your game and convince your boss to pay you more.  It's that or leave and work for someone else paying more money or offering more benefits.  This mysterious thing called "The Market" determines how plentiful work is.  Success is your responsibility, with a dash of luck.  If 'The Market' is busy, and workers are scarce, you can make more money.  If the economy is slow, and there are lots of workers competing for a limited number of jobs, you will likely earn less.2  You and/or your employer will provide any training you need.  Good companies train their workers to be safe and efficient.  Bad employers don't.  It's better for them since good help is hard to find without a union feeding the employer a steady source of skilled workers.3  In most states your employer can fire you with or without a reason, at any time.IN GENERAL, If you become a member of a union:1  The union tells you how much you're worth(what you'll be paid); based on your membership time, the training you've received, and to a limited extent the drive you've demonstrated.  You may be the hardest working, best welder in the hall.  But if you're a 1st year apprentice, you make less money than the other members.  Usually, only time will change this.2  The union tells you who you work for and between them and the company, what you're going to do each day.  Don't like the work, tough.3  If 'The market' is slow, you and other union members may sit without work or pay.  Some unions may have benefits to help or you can collect federal unemployment benefits under some circumstances.  Regardless, most unions expect you to jump when they call and say there's work.  If you take a job in an unrelated business, you must quit if you want the union work.  Most unions have very strict rules and customs when it comes to union workers going rogue and working for a non-union employer.  It's seen as a betrayal to take the union's training and work for an employer who doesn't hire union employees.  You WILL be treated badly by fellow union members if you do this, and it's likely you'll get kicked out of the union if you're caught working in that trade for a non-union employer.  There was a time in the past where you risked being hurt or possibly killed for this kind of behavior.  I do not believe this is likely to happen today.Most of the conflict surrounding unions comes from the pressure unions feel, and in return exert, to survive.  More people today do not feel the need for the protection offered by a union.  Unions in response are struggling to maintain, let alone grow, their membership. A union's power is derived solely from it's membership.  Fewer members means less negotiating power and influence with employers. This pressure on unions to survive results in unions doing things that serve the interests of the union first, not necessarily the best interests of the United States, or the interests of the individual citizens who are union members.  Union leadership and loyal members would likely disagree strongly with this statement.  Putting myself in their shoes, I think they believe that whatever is best for the union is best for the nation and it's citizens.  You'll have to decide for yourself which viewpoint is more valid.I believe that the founding principles of unions are valid.  Protection of union worker safety, providing training so union members do quality, value-added work, and ensuring that members are paid a fair wage for the work they perform.IN MY OPINION, if unions, in general, limited themselves to the first two priorities, I think they would thrive and flourish.  It's the third principle, relating to compensation, that brings unions into conflict with the Free Market and society. Ours is a society that still values freedom and choice(I hope), it's society that is in direct conflict with the union drive to bring all people in a given trade into their membership.  In two words, it's collectivism vs capitalism.  In this context, every skilled tradesman who is NOT a union member is a crack in the foundation of the union and a drag on their negotiating power and influence.  You can debate the pros and cons of unions in much greater detail than I've listed here.  What I've said probably doesn't apply to every union in existence.  Some are undoubtedly better than I've portrayed them to be here.  Some are also worse...  I've worked union and non-union companies over the last 20 years.  I feel qualified to say I've seen the good and the bad of both sides.  The one thing I know for sure is this:You can succeed by following either path.  The key to that success is to work hard, keep your wits about you, and learn as much as you can along the way. Originally Posted by aav1996Hello! I've done a search about the differences between union and non union jobs and I still seem to be confused? So I was wondering if anyone could give me a thorough explanation on Union or non union jobs and some facts on which is the better option. I know this might be a question that inflames some forum members but my intentions aren't too make someone have a crappy night. Just trying to learn as much as I can. From what I know I see unions as the guys that go around protecting workers wages and human rights. If school has taught me right, unions started around the industrial revolution did they not? Why is it years later they're still around? Are union jobs better than non union jobs?
Reply:@A_Dab_will_doBeautifully written, just what I was looking for. I'd like to thank you for taking the time to type all of that out I imagine it must've been a hassle. Although it cleared my interpretations upon union vs. non union jobs and I have an idea of which side of the spectrum I'd like to be on. Once again thank you and everyone else who posted, I greatly appreciate it  I was debating on whether or not to post this thread in the general section then I read the little footnote below the General Welding Questions and thought it'd be ok to post it here.
Reply:Glad we could help you make an informed decesion.Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:Originally Posted by mike837goBad news for you. Obamacare has already impacted union welfare plans. Several years ago, all existing plans had to start covering offspring (natural and adopted) of the covered member up to age 26. The federal definintions and groupings of different kinds of coverage has caused certain changes in what is and isn't covered by the union's plan.And there is more to come.
Reply:Originally Posted by mike837goBad news for you. Obamacare has already impacted union welfare plans. Several years ago, all existing plans had to start covering offspring (natural and adopted) of the covered member up to 26.
Reply:Originally Posted by A_DAB_will_doAt the risk of becoming embroiled in an argument, I'll contribute my opinion to the discussion...What follows is my OPINION and mine alone.  Let the OP make of it what he will.  If you disagree with me, please agree to disagree privately, and do not quote my posting in an attempt to refute my opinion or change my mind.  If you have a different perspective, please share it without using my post as the basis for an argument.I believe (I do not state this as fact because I do not know with certainty) that unions are an evolution of and merger of the old system of guilds of tradesmen with certain necessities created by the industrial revolution.  Guilds in the middle ages were groups of tradesmen formed for mutual benefit and protection.  Guilds defined who was skilled at a particular trade, ensured that apprentices(new tradesmen) were given proper training, and ensured that journeymen and craftsmasters conducted their business with some integrity and honesty.  Guilds also acted to protect their members from unfair manipulation by nobility, governments, and in the case of European society, explotation by religious institutions.  In return, guild members paid money to the guild and agreed to follow guild rules.Over centuries, governments in western society evolved away from monarchies and feudal systems to democratic republics or limited monarchies that provided certain basic rights to individual citizens.  Guilds were no longer vital as individuals were able to better fend for themselves.  Then the industrial revolution started and changed the fundamental economies of most western nations.  Farming had been the major source of work for most people.  But advances in efficiency meant that fewer farmers could produce enough food for everyone.  Factories that paid workers in currency became commonplace.  Working conditions were bad, as technology and economics outpaced society and government.  Factory owners made little or no provision for worker safety.  Hours were long and hard, work was exceedingly dangerous.  Children were employed and for some jobs even preferred over adults.  It wasn't uncommon for factory workers to work 14 hours a day, 6 days a week.Unions evolved out of a need for workers to gather the power needed to negotiate for safer working conditions and better pay.  By controlling who worked, when they worked, and how much pay they received, unions could negotiate on level footing with business owners.  If this sounds simple and easy, do some research into the conflict between coal mining companies and miners in the Appalachian Mountains of West Virginia, Kentucky, and Tennessee during the early 1900s.  Or Ford Motor Company and the Pinkerton men who busted unions for Henry Ford.You need to realize that the conflict between business, union employees, and everyone else has plenty of blame to go around on all sides.  It's complicated and talking about unions means talking about politics, religion, and philosophy all at once.  Sex is about the only taboo subject that doesn't come up regularly in a conversation about unions.Today many would say that the pendulum has swung back and that workers are better shielded by law and social norms than they were 100 years ago.  Unions are on the decline because of this.  Unions are fighting this decline using a variety of strategies and tactics.Today, unions strive to ensure a good wage for their members, provide health care benefits, and a means of saving for retirement.  Unions ensure a safe work environment and negotiate very specific rules with employers for what tasks union members perform for their pay.  The union also provides a channel for communicating problems to their employers.  The employers who hire union employees pay for all of this.  The union members pay a small portion of their earnings back to the union to pay for all the people who make a union function.  Unions provide training for new members and generally ensure that their members perform work to minimum standards.  For employers this means that although union labor is expensive, it generally is good quality labor and the union can provide more or less people on short notice.  It can be a very good arrangement for union members.  In my experience, Union jobs tend to be safer, better managed, and more efficient as a result.  When one job is done, the union leadership has been working in the background to find another job or jobs for it's members to do.  Local union chapters will support their fellows by sharing workload.  If a big job comes to a union hall in a big city, and they don't have enough members to staff the job, they'll invite other union halls to send unemployed workers or even invite non-union workers to work on the job.On the other hand, Unions are made up of people; and people are imperfect, flawed.  Unions can be hotbeds of protectionism, nepotism, favoritism, corruption, and greed.  Local chapters vary and if you're going to be a union member you need to pay attention to what union management is saying and doing in your name and with your dues.  Unions have been found bribing politicians and local officials, using blackmail to win work contracts, and using violence to intimidate business owners and non-union workers.  I suspect they feel justified in doing so because every non-union job or worker erodes their power base for negotiating pay and benefits for the members.  A union is only satisfied if 100% of the workers are members of the union and working full time.  Bad union leadership will not protect their workers safety, will favor some workers over others(with and without just cause). This could go on a lot longer... So let me see if I can get to the heart of your question...IN GENERAL, If you work for an employer who does not hire union employees:1 you get pay and benefits that are decided primarily by the employer.  Benefits might include insurance and some kind of subsidy for retirement.  If you don't like them, it's up to you and you alone to improve your game and convince your boss to pay you more.  It's that or leave and work for someone else paying more money or offering more benefits.  This mysterious thing called "The Market" determines how plentiful work is.  Success is your responsibility, with a dash of luck.  If 'The Market' is busy, and workers are scarce, you can make more money.  If the economy is slow, and there are lots of workers competing for a limited number of jobs, you will likely earn less.2  You and/or your employer will provide any training you need.  Good companies train their workers to be safe and efficient.  Bad employers don't.  It's better for them since good help is hard to find without a union feeding the employer a steady source of skilled workers.3  In most states your employer can fire you with or without a reason, at any time.IN GENERAL, If you become a member of a union:1  The union tells you how much you're worth(what you'll be paid); based on your membership time, the training you've received, and to a limited extent the drive you've demonstrated.  You may be the hardest working, best welder in the hall.  But if you're a 1st year apprentice, you make less money than the other members.  Usually, only time will change this.2  The union tells you who you work for and between them and the company, what you're going to do each day.  Don't like the work, tough.3  If 'The market' is slow, you and other union members may sit without work or pay.  Some unions may have benefits to help or you can collect federal unemployment benefits under some circumstances.  Regardless, most unions expect you to jump when they call and say there's work.  If you take a job in an unrelated business, you must quit if you want the union work.  Most unions have very strict rules and customs when it comes to union workers going rogue and working for a non-union employer.  It's seen as a betrayal to take the union's training and work for an employer who doesn't hire union employees.  You WILL be treated badly by fellow union members if you do this, and it's likely you'll get kicked out of the union if you're caught working in that trade for a non-union employer.  There was a time in the past where you risked being hurt or possibly killed for this kind of behavior.  I do not believe this is likely to happen today.Most of the conflict surrounding unions comes from the pressure unions feel, and in return exert, to survive.  More people today do not feel the need for the protection offered by a union.  Unions in response are struggling to maintain, let alone grow, their membership. A union's power is derived solely from it's membership.  Fewer members means less negotiating power and influence with employers. This pressure on unions to survive results in unions doing things that serve the interests of the union first, not necessarily the best interests of the United States, or the interests of the individual citizens who are union members.  Union leadership and loyal members would likely disagree strongly with this statement.  Putting myself in their shoes, I think they believe that whatever is best for the union is best for the nation and it's citizens.  You'll have to decide for yourself which viewpoint is more valid.I believe that the founding principles of unions are valid.  Protection of union worker safety, providing training so union members do quality, value-added work, and ensuring that members are paid a fair wage for the work they perform.IN MY OPINION, if unions, in general, limited themselves to the first two priorities, I think they would thrive and flourish.  It's the third principle, relating to compensation, that brings unions into conflict with the Free Market and society. Ours is a society that still values freedom and choice(I hope), it's society that is in direct conflict with the union drive to bring all people in a given trade into their membership.  In two words, it's collectivism vs capitalism.  In this context, every skilled tradesman who is NOT a union member is a crack in the foundation of the union and a drag on their negotiating power and influence.  You can debate the pros and cons of unions in much greater detail than I've listed here.  What I've said probably doesn't apply to every union in existence.  Some are undoubtedly better than I've portrayed them to be here.  Some are also worse...  I've worked union and non-union companies over the last 20 years.  I feel qualified to say I've seen the good and the bad of both sides.  The one thing I know for sure is this:You can succeed by following either path.  The key to that success is to work hard, keep your wits about you, and learn as much as you can along the way.
Reply:It's a place where the master machinist makes $26/hr and the one eyed gimp who sweetz da flo and cleanz dat toilet gets $24.77 and all the OT he wants.Bubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:Tuesday morning I roasted my left eye helping my partner with some tack up work, I woke up yesterday with a cherry tomato where my eye used to be. By mid day I said F this I need some drops i'll go see my eye dr. after work. Low and behold the receptionist told me they don't accept my coverage anymore. I said WHAT! Then put me under Obamacare and book me for three O clock! I heard a giggle and then silence. I told her my problem and asked how much for a standard visit and she said she's not sure, but it's $175 to walk through the door. I hated to be rude but my $15 dollar union covered visit was now gonna cost a fortune so I gave her a couple sweet words and hung up and stole a bottle of eye wash flush from work and it's fine today. WTF man this shlt is getting out of control.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboysthanks A Dab will do,Very well spoken...i meant writtenNow i have a much better understanding of union.
Reply:You're welcome.  If you got something of value from what I wrote, then my time was well spent.  Regardless, good luck with your career pursuits. Originally Posted by aav1996@A_Dab_will_doBeautifully written, just what I was looking for. I'd like to thank you for taking the time to type all of that out I imagine it must've been a hassle. Although it cleared my interpretations upon union vs. non union jobs and I have an idea of which side of the spectrum I'd like to be on. Once again thank you and everyone else who posted, I greatly appreciate it  I was debating on whether or not to post this thread in the general section then I read the little footnote below the General Welding Questions and thought it'd be ok to post it here.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeTuesday morning I roasted my left eye helping my partner with some tack up work, I woke up yesterday with a cherry tomato where my eye used to be. By mid day I said F this I need some drops i'll go see my eye dr. after work. Low and behold the receptionist told me they don't accept my coverage anymore. I said WHAT! Then put me under Obamacare and book me for three O clock! I heard a giggle and then silence. I told her my problem and asked how much for a standard visit and she said she's not sure, but it's $175 to walk through the door. I hated to be rude but my $15 dollar union covered visit was now gonna cost a fortune so I gave her a couple sweet words and hung up and stole a bottle of eye wash flush from work and it's fine today. WTF man this shlt is getting out of control.
Reply:Originally Posted by BurpeeNext time grab a piece of bread, tear a hole in it, lay on your back, slap the bread over your eye and get someone to pour some milk in the hole.BLINK BLINK and blink more.Old School.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeback on the topic, medical coverage is getting worse on a daily.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPLooks like my oldest daughter is going on strike. She is the manager of a Starbucks coffee shop, inside a grocery store. She has worked for the grocery store chain every since high school, (30-years). The grocery store chain wants to drop everybody down to 29-hours a week, and eliminate health care benefits!
Reply:What makes things worse, her youngest daughter has OI. That brittle bones disease. 8-years old and has right at 100-breaks! Hate to even think what she cost the insurance company per year! Just this morning broke her right arm getting dressed for school!Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Got to love this fearless/ clueless leader of ours.  This country needs real leadership.  Someone to take the bull by the horns and give it an abrupt 180!GarLincoln Electric, Power MIG 256Hypertherm Powermax 45 Miller Dynasty 280DXSmith O/A torchGenesis of a welding table
Reply:MondoI hope your popcorn has been as good as mine.Hot-butter does nothing to make Spam better.Opus
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERROMondoI hope your popcorn has been as good as mine.Hot-butter does nothing to make Spam better.Opus
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeIt's really messed up bud, not even funny. That sucks. Don't know what else to say!
Reply:I guess I need a union. I'm self employed. I've seen my health insurance costs nearly triple over the last decade. Just got a notice indicating my company will no longer be operating in Washington State as of 1/1/2014. Made me so mad  I cancelled the policy the day I received the notice. For years I've paid the policy just to get flushed. Makes me feel as if I paid for nothing.  A lot of money each month for the peace of mind.  I guess I'm headed to the obamacare line.  As for my retirement... I hope to sell my real property and machines. A real union pension would be nice sometimes. That said I'm doing exactly what I want to do... at my pace.
Reply:aav'96 I think there is a factor in all history that needs more attention in this thread, but I'm not going to be political just kind of make some notes and expand a little on A_dab's fine summary and overview.I think people are paid, in amounts of money, for the rarity of their knowledge.  So a surgeon who's taken 20 or 30 years to perfect his ability to decide to move a micro scalpel a few thousands of an inch one way or the other in your brain ..... gets paid 1,000's per minute to do brain surgery.  But someone that is doing a simpler job that most anyone can learn for mostly public knowledge gets paid minimum wage -and that had to be legislated or the amount of the lowest wage would be lower.If you have the experience and knowledge to guide a huge world-wide, oil and gas production corporation; they seem to pay millions of dollars per year for those who can do that, but if you're someone who's skill is to cut and fit metal for that corporation, then the rate of pay is quite a bit less. However , the welder for that corporation does have knowledge much more rare than the folks sweeping the floors or serving food in the galley.So, while I agree with A_dab' guild summary, I think their purpose was to protect 'secret' knowledge and therefore keep that knowledge's value up which these pre-union guilds did for hundred of years until the printing press, reading and individual education made that 'secret' knowledge into common knowledge.If everyone could perform brain surgery the value of the surgeon's time and skills would be much less as that knowledge became less rare or scarce.  Of course the skill component is being ignored to make the knowledge my focus here.In modern times, (1860 on)  some sets of knowledge were termed 'the trades' ; metal work (half dozen major divisions), electrical, wood, dirt/civil and so on.  However what changed from the guild days was the setting in which the 'trades' could be relied on for a life time of work. Instead of a life time traveling to find work (the origin of the term journeyman) to living now with factories you could live in one place.But the owner of the factory/shop/plant could dictate the terms of work, so as A-dab reports the collective association in unions was the workers' answer to poor treatment when factory ownership tipped the balance of working terms toward the owner.By this time 1900-1941 the knowledge of the trades was no longer a 'trade secret' as before but they'd become 'built in' to machinery. Skills still held sway in some bargaining for value of work but knowing how to do the work, while not secret, was not common knowledge but no longer secret within the guild so they became political groups instead of 'trade' groups.Now, you're reading trade information on a free exchange and can hear from a very knowledgeable group of people who also have the skills to apply that knowledge; so the gain to a group holding specific knowledge is almost non-existent as regard the trades.  Therefore unions' strength was either limited knowledge or skills that a training program limited to that trade groups' expertise made their knowledge and combined skills worth  'more' than the workmen who did not have that membership to access the knowledge-base and training.  But since machine technology has advance so far that welding power supplies now 'put the ripple' into a bead by turning knobs, the limits on previous knowledge has evaporated and now the value of that knowledge is worth less wage since more people can get it and apply it doing as well as the formerly better trained and educated union member.Now if you have secret computer coding knowledge that's a different story -invoking my previous ideas that rarity of knowledge or information helps make it higher valued.Today, depending on the industry and area of the country where you live union wages are still higher than non-union wages but there are many places where the past wage advantage is so low that unions are not common.As their 'corner' on the educated in trades workers become less and less the unions will have to become more and more political and less and less about anything more than politics to justify their existence.  These changes are inevitable if society keeps going like it is; more and more application of digital controls at lower and lower cost per machine function will make the knowledge and skills of 'a union man' less and less valuable in the hand work trades.My purpose in this post was to ADD too, not contradict A_dab's posts, and to ADD a little focus on the relative value, at a given time, of knowledge/skill sets that have been held by relatively small groups of people historically. cheers,Kevin MorinKenai, AK
Reply:Originally Posted by Kevin Morinaav'96 I think there is a factor in all history that needs more attention in this thread, but I'm not going to be political just kind of make some notes and expand a little on A_dab's fine summary and overview.I think people are paid, in amounts of money, for the rarity of their knowledge.  So a surgeon who's taken 20 or 30 years to perfect his ability to decide to move a micro scalpel a few thousands of an inch one way or the other in your brain ..... gets paid 1,000's per minute to do brain surgery.  But someone that is doing a simpler job that most anyone can learn for mostly public knowledge gets paid minimum wage -and that had to be legislated or the amount of the lowest wage would be lower.If you have the experience and knowledge to guide a huge world-wide, oil and gas production corporation; they seem to pay millions of dollars per year for those who can do that, but if you're someone who's skill is to cut and fit metal for that corporation, then the rate of pay is quite a bit less. However , the welder for that corporation does have knowledge much more rare than the folks sweeping the floors or serving food in the galley.So, while I agree with A_dab' guild summary, I think their purpose was to protect 'secret' knowledge and therefore keep that knowledge's value up which these pre-union guilds did for hundred of years until the printing press, reading and individual education made that 'secret' knowledge into common knowledge.If everyone could perform brain surgery the value of the surgeon's time and skills would be much less as that knowledge became less rare or scarce.  Of course the skill component is being ignored to make the knowledge my focus here.In modern times, (1860 on)  some sets of knowledge were termed 'the trades' ; metal work (half dozen major divisions), electrical, wood, dirt/civil and so on.  However what changed from the guild days was the setting in which the 'trades' could be relied on for a life time of work. Instead of a life time traveling to find work (the origin of the term journeyman) to living now with factories you could live in one place.But the owner of the factory/shop/plant could dictate the terms of work, so as A-dab reports the collective association in unions was the workers' answer to poor treatment when factory ownership tipped the balance of working terms toward the owner.By this time 1900-1941 the knowledge of the trades was no longer a 'trade secret' as before but they'd become 'built in' to machinery. Skills still held sway in some bargaining for value of work but knowing how to do the work, while not secret, was not common knowledge but no longer secret within the guild so they became political groups instead of 'trade' groups.Now, you're reading trade information on a free exchange and can hear from a very knowledgeable group of people who also have the skills to apply that knowledge; so the gain to a group holding specific knowledge is almost non-existent as regard the trades.  Therefore unions' strength was either limited knowledge or skills that a training program limited to that trade groups' expertise made their knowledge and combined skills worth  'more' than the workmen who did not have that membership to access the knowledge-base and training.  But since machine technology has advance so far that welding power supplies now 'put the ripple' into a bead by turning knobs, the limits on previous knowledge has evaporated and now the value of that knowledge is worth less wage since more people can get it and apply it doing as well as the formerly better trained and educated union member.Now if you have secret computer coding knowledge that's a different story -invoking my previous ideas that rarity of knowledge or information helps make it higher valued.Today, depending on the industry and area of the country where you live union wages are still higher than non-union wages but there are many places where the past wage advantage is so low that unions are not common.As their 'corner' on the educated in trades workers become less and less the unions will have to become more and more political and less and less about anything more than politics to justify their existence.  These changes are inevitable if society keeps going like it is; more and more application of digital controls at lower and lower cost per machine function will make the knowledge and skills of 'a union man' less and less valuable in the hand work trades.My purpose in this post was to ADD too, not contradict A_dab's posts, and to ADD a little focus on the relative value, at a given time, of knowledge/skill sets that have been held by relatively small groups of people historically. cheers,Kevin MorinKenai, AK
Reply:If you are hurt at work its called workmens compensation go to the dr free ,a reqirement in most states and you are protected by OSHA nationwide.
Reply:Originally Posted by PavinsteelmanIf you are hurt at work its called workmens compensation go to the dr free ,a reqirement in most states and you are protected by OSHA nationwide.
Reply:Originally Posted by FarmDadNot if the injury isn't reported  to the employer in a timely fashion .  I cant remember for sure the cutoff but i am thinking 24 hrs from happening , so if you go home on Friday and then decide to see a doc on Monday your on your own if you didn't notify the boss ( usually in writing )  before you even realized you might need the doc .
Reply:It is the best interest to everyone to report an injury right away. First I want you to go to the doc right away. To make sure you are not making the injury worse. And second I want the chance to pay for the doctor trip out of pocket. A thousand dollar doctor bill could raise the cost of workers comp far more. That is not to say the injury is to be hidden. Report it to me and the doctor as an on the job injury. Get it in your records, in case it becomes an issue in the future. As far as the union debate thing goes. All I have to say is. It is time for working people to support each other. Union or non. Union jobs are on a huge decline in my state,Michigan. Due to lack of support by the American consumer.
Reply:aaa'96,  Well that is part of my point- "I understand what your saying the more you know the more your worth." The whole idea was more that knowledge is relative in value and at one time that made unions more knoweldge oriented and as knowledge has become more widely spread it's worth less.But I'm glad you're aware of the pros and cons, I have been an employer for most of my adult life, on and off, and found that unions do offer a decent 'screening' service where the level of skill and knowledge of the trade involved is more uniform from unions than the general job call at the State's job service. On the other hand the contributions are costly if the job is not always going to be bid at Davis Bacon rates.so overall there's a point of view that will favor or discourage a man's view of unions.I do have a work comp story to mention that gives pause. The idea of reporting all 'incidents' is intended to be a good idea but can have expensive consequences.  I forced an employee who was splashed in the face by a client's employee to report for an eye exam even though she was not suffering any discomfort or any vision related issues four hours after the incident.  Because she was sent to the Dr. (which was my decision on her behalf for safety and to be sure there was not medical reason for her to be called injured) my company was penalized in two ways. First and most expensive was the event became an OSHA Reportable Accident (even though no accidental injury was incurred) and that blemished our perfect 'no reportable' rating with OSHA  AND my insurance carrier and then the second was ... The client company had an index rating the safety records of contractors.Because we were small, the incident changed us from an A++ to a D in one incident (they did not and do not prorate for company size or manhours on site) so we were notified that we were now on probation. Notice the fact; their own employee was found at fault for failing to uphold their own internal safe work practices and was not even given a reprimand or corrective training, and our firm was held responsible for their actions. I did what I thought was the preventative care safe act of insuring an employee was checked out by a Dr as a precaution, and was punished to the tune of thousands of dollars of increased insurance premium for years (still running) and given notice that the contractor with the best 15 year safety record on that company's facilities in our area was now on 'probation' and one more 'near miss' and we'd be considered unsafe- due to their own people's acts.So, work comp laws, insurance related and client company safe work programs are all intended to help people to work safer, smarter, and with less risk. But, in reality the administration of lots of these safe work and related programs are really an incentive to keep quiet about accidents and pay cash for the needed medical checks and just try to keep below the radar of the bureaucracy that has arisen after the good intent is left behind and silliness remains.  You can get punished big time by following the law due to policies that are supposed to help keep people safe; so the administration of law(s) to keep people safe becomes incentive to take risks- not the best situation.Cheers,Kevin MorinKenai, AK