AWS D1.1 Complete Penetration

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I have a job to quote.  It requires complete penetration joints,.   Its 1" plate with 1"  pieces 3.5 Inches apart.  Both are T joints.There is not room to get a fillet in between the two pieces. How do I prep the pieces? I can get a picture if needed. I may have found it the bible (Procedure Handbook of Arc Welding)   This is close    _l__l_The book calls for a 3/4" fillet on one side in 5 passes at 350 amps with 1/4" rod.  Would this be a complete penetration weld according to D1.1?DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Not sure about the code.Just a thought, what about a single bevel on the legs of the T?
Reply:Good to see you posting again David. Don't be such a stranger. I loved your old posts. Things HAVE improved, even if it doesn't look that way today...I'll try and see if I can't find my old copy of D1.1 and look it up, but I'm thinking the single bevel is the way you will need to go to get full pen on the joint. Hopefully one of the CWI's or one of the guys who does D1.1 day in and out can clarify this for you..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I would also think a 45 degree bevel, similar to the figures on page 6.2-31 in the bible (14th ed.). The figures are for a horizontal groove weld but the geometry would be similar except no gap or backing strip. I do not think a regular fillet counts as CJP since there is little penetration into the joint between the two pieces, but I am not a code expert.In either case you will need to pre-camber and/or clamp the p!ss out of it.JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:I looked through my AWS D1.1 book, this is the best I can find. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:I managed to locate these in my 99 copy of D1.1 on my flash drive. I hate using the flash vs the hardcopy as it's tough for me to determine what the differences are only looking at one piece on screen at a time. I didn't bother with any of the prequalified ones that listed back gouging and I think one of the picts is for material less than 1"..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Thing about a cjp with a single bevel is the amount of pull weld is going to generate.  I know you know this, I just posted this so I can pull it up later and see how you do it and hopefully you have some pictures.  You always get the fun jobs!!
Reply:Good to see you here again David!!! I too, miss your posting. Too bad you're not closer, I have 150 lbs of 1/4" 7018."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:The problem with beveling for full penetration will be filling the groove and making a 3/4" fillet weld in 5 passes, I think someone made a mistake somewhere. Maybe with 1/4" electrodes it can be done, I haven't run them so I don't know. Also how do you back the steel so that you can get full penetration without ruining the joint between verticals? Tig/Mig root then fill?Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:A CJP weld requires either backgouging and welding from both sides OR the use of steel backing.  D1.1/D1.1M:2010-3.13  CJP Groove Weld Requirements.  That's for using the D1.1/etc prequailified WPS.3.13.2 says prequalified CJP welds made from one-side require the use of steel backing.Are you required to work to D1.1 code, or just a question about 'is welding from one side of a T-joint able to make a CJP weld'?D1.1 T-joint with backing, one-sided CJP prequalified, single-bevel-groove-weld with backing, SMAW joint designation  TCU4a, unlimited plate thickness, groove prep 1/4" gap on the root opening and 45 deg single bevel groove angle, all-position SMAW prequalified.  Just like the first image DSW put up in Post #6 above.Another possible option would be to weld one T-joint with backgouging for the CJP, and then do the second T-joint using the single-bevel-weld-with-backing approach.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Thanks A whole lot folks!The decision by my customer is to make a 45* bevel.    The blueprint said CJP using D1.1 standards.  My customer quoted the job as weld all around.  Right now i have 2 of these units to do.  Last year I quoted 500 of them @ 1.5 hours each.   My customer did not understand the whole CJP thing.   This time I explained the leg of the T has to be part of the base as if it was one unit.  I asked for a knife edge at the bevel and plan to tig the first pass.  I can make ONE pass on the back side.    If I tig it, with some luck I will get a bead on the back side or if I can't there will be no slag.  This should avoid having to back gouge.    No filler is specified and the base metal is 572 (mild steel).BUT WAIT there is more!   I need to keep the base plate to less than .060 warpage.  I just found this out yesterday.  The customer is going to supply me with a 1" plate to clamp to the base and I will make a pass, let it cool.......    If I show you the blue prints, I would have to kill you.    I will post pictures of the job.To those who have kind words, thank you very much.   I miss this place but the snake oil salesmen drove me away.Thanks again to those who just helped meDavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I have run into these kind of demands regularly over my career.  Doing this in the field is next to impossible.  The standard fall back is to bevel one side on both vertical pieces then locate and weld in between with a gun or stick making a single pass 3/8 fillet.  3.5 inches apart is better than I have had.  If you can tilt the assembly do the back weld in the flat position to eliminate risk of undercut.  Backgouge out the root and then fill.   To keep the base plate flat maybe clamp them back to back with a 1/8th spacer between... maybe even 1/4.  Tack small bits across edges of plate since clamps will never hold once you are welding.  Tack bars across the ends of the vertical plates to lock them.   If the base plate warps then it is time to heat shrink.... a long process.   Designers keep thinking welding is like putting in caulking with a caulking gun.... and just as fast.
Reply:Here is the latest.Steel is A572 Grade 50.   Its hot rolled then quenched so it has a nasty bark for mill scale.  The round plate below is a heat sink and seems to be working.One pass outside, I kept a keyhole the whole pass.   One pass inside, no back grinding needed.I need to make two.  The pin supplied would turn after the first pass,  but not the second.  Once I am done, the 13/4" hole will be bored out to 2" + or - .002.   Picky aint they?The block spacer was removed after the first pass.After Two passes on the outside, the plates spread about an eighth of an inch total.  Today I am going to tip them in 1/8" each hoping I am close.My customer suggested welding a bar across them.  If I do that, I think the bottom plate will warp more.Allowance for bottom plate is .060" warpage.  It has bent a little, but not much so far.  This morning I will remove the clamps and see.Tig, 230 amps  "All shes got" 3/32 tungsten, 3/32 filler so far.   The hot light came on almost at the end of the first pass on the second side.  On the next one I will use the V350.Next Is fill he gap with MIG because it puts in the lowest heat.Customer suggested stick because if I get porosity it will be ultra sound checked.  I told him porosity is not a problem what ever process I use.More tonight.DavidLast edited by David R; 10-31-2013 at 06:43 AM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Not may favorite machine.  This replaced my Arcmaster 185 that died this year.  The arcmaster was 7 in human years.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I dunno Dave.  I'm with your customer on this one.  I'd weld a block in between the two vertical pieces, above the shaft holes.  Then I'd tack the base plate to the big circular heat sink plate to keep everything fixed in place.  Those single sided V grooves are going to contract and pull those vertical plates outward unless you restrain them.  I'd also preheat that whole assembly to at least 200F(300 would be better) before striking another arc on it.  then I'd weld and try to hold the interpass temp at no more than 300F.  You might have to wait between alternating passes on both sides; or put a weedburner on the assembly between passes to hold temp.  Check and see what D1.1 says about pre-heat and interpass for material that thick... The requirements might differ from what I suggested above.Whatever the customer wants in the end, but remember Moonrise's question above.  What you're doing doesn't strictly comply with any of the pre-qualified WPS in D1.1, since you're not using a backup bar or welding then gouging/grinding the back, and then welding the back side.I'm not saying your procedure won't work. I'm sure it will work very well.  BUT, just a friendly reminder that if your customer wants these to comply with D1.1 you need to qualify the weld procedure you're using.  The procedure you've settled on doesn't match up with one of the Pre-qualified weld procedures in the standard. (that I know of)  Qualifying your weld procedure is lots of time and money.  So make sure your customer isn't going to came back at you when these are done.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:A572 D1.1 pre-heat and interpass is just preheat above 50F for 1" thick material (Category B).I'd go hotter than that though.    300-400F would be my choice.It's all going to warp, because that is a lot of weld metal to put in there.  The hot preheat will help somewhat with the distortion from welding, but not eliminate it all.  I'd have kicked the tabs inward (no longer perpendicular to the base plate) to allow for the (inevitable) pull from the contracting weld metal put in to fill those bevels.You are already getting those ears pulling/distorting just with the two TIG passes (the pin no longer turns/slides in the holes).  It is just going to get (much) worse filling in the rest of those bevels.  (was it you or someone else here who did some gusset welds on a cell tower, in the snow/winter?  IIRC, those welds pulled (a lot), and required some 'creative' pre-weld offsets and BFH 'adjustments' mid-process.  And those weren't going to 60 thou tolerances! )Hmmm, 1/8" outward pull with just the two little TIG passes on the bevel side?  I think you'll have to kick the ears inward more than 1/8" to try and compensate for the pull of the contracting weld metal in those bevels.  Maybe 1/4" or so??  Like 'Benson' mentioned, you may (will!) be able to get welds done, but they are NOT D1.1 CJP pre-qualified welds.  GTAW is not in the D1.1 CJP prequalified process tables (neither is GMAW-S), just SAW, SMAW, and FCAW/GMAW.  Without either backgouging or using a backing strip, you do not have a D1.1 CJP prequalified T-joint weld.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:I am at lunch.   A few notes.   The second one I started out the same way.   Root pass from the outside burning a keyhole all the way.   Next was a pass on the inside.  All I needed was a wire brush for back grind.  I could see my bead.  On the second one, the pin would still turn after a total of 3 passes with TIG.  These passes were all at the knife edge, so it didn't have much to pull on.Next we clamped the ends and squeezed them until the center was 2 1/2" and let them go.  They sprung out to 2 3/4".   I made 3 MIG passes with .045 wire on 250 ipm @ 19.9 volts using C/25.  I alternated between sides allowing lots of time to cool between welds.  Nothing got over 300 the whole time.  These spread to 3 5/16".3 1/8" is the spec.The second one we clamped and squeezed to 2 1/8" inside.  It sprung back to 2 3/8".  I made the same 3 passes.  It pulled open to just under 3".  I am about 1/2 way or more through the groove.I took the first one to my customer (Machine shop) and used their press to squeeze it back to 2 3/4".Right or wrong, I did not use a solid bar between the pieces.  If they did not move, the base plate would look like a horseshoe.  Right now the base is about .030" warped which I think is great.I am taking pictures, but can't post them until tonight.You folks are a great help.Thank YouDavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by David RI am at lunch.   A few notes.   The second one I started out the same way.   Root pass from the outside burning a keyhole all the way.   Next was a pass on the inside.  All I needed was a wire brush for back grind.  I could see my bead.  On the second one, the pin would still turn after a total of 3 passes with TIG.  These passes were all at the knife edge, so it didn't have much to pull on.Next we clamped the ends and squeezed them until the center was 2 1/2" and let them go.  They sprung out to 2 3/4".   I made 3 MIG passes with .045 wire on 250 ipm @ 19.9 volts using C/25.  I alternated between sides allowing lots of time to cool between welds.  Nothing got over 300 the whole time.  These spread to 3 5/16".3 1/8" is the spec.The second one we clamped and squeezed to 2 1/8" inside.  It sprung back to 2 3/8".  I made the same 3 passes.  It pulled open to just under 3".  I am about 1/2 way or more through the groove.I took the first one to my customer (Machine shop) and used their press to squeeze it back to 2 3/4".Right or wrong, I did not use a solid bar between the pieces.  If they did not move, the base plate would look like a horseshoe.  Right now the base is about .030" warped which I think is great.I am taking pictures, but can't post them until tonight.You folks are a great help.Thank YouDavid
Reply:Just out of curiosity, wouldn't it be simpler to plug weld those from the back?  it would be twice the weld metal but it would a heck of a lot easier to maintain all the  tolerances.  it would also be quicker.I had some tabs to weld on a ½ inch plate that were close to each other, much closer than those.  I torched out the opening, tacked the tabs and welded from the back.  it went faster than expected.  I was a full weld that the engineer signed off on after we couldn't do a CJP due to constraints, obstructions, and warpage.  The only thing we were worried about was oil canning on the thinner sheet.  you shouldn't have that much of an oil canning problem on the thicker plate and the smallness of the sample.I would also preheat if allowed to 250-300Last edited by Scott Young; 10-31-2013 at 03:03 PM.
Reply:Matt glad to see there are others doing the same job.  I think in the end it will be UT.Scott, My son asked the same question when the job was done.  He said why can't you slot the piece and weld from the bottom.I finished the job today.  The pieces pulled in much further than I expected.    A  little squeeze with the clamp and some post heat with a rosebud and the gap was 3 1/8.  The other one came out within spec without any additional "Post heat".Here is the prep after 3 tig passesThis was a test run to make sure I had the wire speed and volts right.    Glad I checked because I had the wrong line run to the C/25 bottle.First pass, would this get me into the Mig like TIG thread?Final productThanks to everyone.  Customer was happy.   He liked the look.  Base was warped about .030".    Pieces were within 1/16" of the 3 1/8" spec.  I may get more of these.Next week aluminum trailer with a walking floor.   I have 40 feet of angle to repair worn and missing parts.  Plused spray aluminum from a spool gun.David Attached ImagesLast edited by David R; 10-31-2013 at 09:31 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.