Spreader beam to pick sander

admin

Landscaper has a plastic / Poly sander and has an A frame gantry for picking his sander. Trouble is it has 4 picking points and when you center hook the 4 the weight is putting a great deal of stress on the sander, with any weight in it it may actually crack. Owners manual says to only pick it empty. Center hooking it causing and inward pull. Took a look at it and I suggested he should get a second chain fall and pick it with 2 spreader beams , 1 each side. Heres what I came up with this afternoon. Unit weighs 660 pound empty so about 350 lbs a side if it has some residual in it. Main rail is 2x2x 1/4 Close up of the MIG work, Miller 251, does a good job Here's how they will hang, center hanger is adjustable and will slide left/right to find center point depending on how unit is balanced.  Now heres the funny part, guys will go out and buy a unit for around 5 grand that will break if you don't handle it just right. But cry when you tell them it will cost $300 for a custom made , 1 of a kind apparatus to pick that unit without breaking it. Took me around 3 hours, maybe a touch more. I have known the guy for years and think I gave him a break , material all told was $160 dollars, doesn't look it I know. but he was hesitant when I told him the price. I would charge considerably more for someone else or on the next one.Said it would be cheaper to buy 4 guys a case of beer 2 times a year and just carry it on or off the truck. I said "Would It?"  try to get those guys at the same time when you want to do it. now he can load and unload himself, whenever, And I bet he will find other use for the beams and the gantry. Anybody else I would have sent away with and ear full of nasty words, just gotta laught this one off and hope I need to borrow something from him some time.Last edited by kolot; 03-19-2012 at 09:04 PM."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:i think thats a very good price...
Reply:Nice work I like the idea of centering the load on the spreader if needed.
Reply:Looks great. He'll use the heck out of those beams, you know he will. People don't realize what steel costs anymore. Changes the whole meaning of scrap when you start paying several bucks a foot for some of that stuff."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:Originally Posted by SandyLooks great. He'll use the heck out of those beams, you know he will. People don't realize what steel costs anymore. Changes the whole meaning of scrap when you start paying several bucks a foot for some of that stuff.
Reply:I think your price was more then fair. Nice work.Go figure, I live in CT also and have frugal landscaping buddies.
Reply:Nice looking job Kolot. Question....shouldn't it be the other way 'round, tubing on bottom and rouind bar on top so it's in tension? Not pickin', just asking......Mike
Reply:Originally Posted by mrmikeyNice looking job Kolot. Question....shouldn't it be the other way 'round, tubing on bottom and rouind bar on top so it's in tension? Not pickin', just asking......Mike
Reply:I agree it's built upside down.  With the steel  you used for the trusses it needs bo be under tension not compression when loaded.  I think could fold up if loaded too hard.  Looks like a great plan just flip your pick points.Nice welds..Dan D.Last edited by DanD78; 03-20-2012 at 09:59 AM.
Reply:I have seen the same problem in my industry (computer programming and systems).  People who don't understand what it takes to build custom software throw holy fits when they get the bill for something that will make them a mint.  Too often I get reactions like "I can pay a day laborer a few bucks to do X Y Z, why are you so expensive?"  Because I am not a day laborer - I have spent decades developing skills that are hard to come by and worth real money, I feel fully justified in charging for my work.  If they don't like the price then I won't do the work.I believe skilled welding is no different - most folks have no idea what it takes to build a safe, reliable widget so they severely undervalue the work.Those of us that do the builds are the only ones that can protect the market value of the work - don't give in to the temptation to undercharge.  It is better to not do the work than to work for slave wages (unless you really, truly aren't able to feed your family or something like that).Hobart LX235Victor 250 Oxy-Acetylene Rig (welding and cutting)Bobcat 773F-350, 1999, 4x4, 16' 10K# trailerOutdoor Wood Burner - 10 cords/year
Reply:That price is dirt cheap. Nice work. Lightweight and easy to handle.Customer needs to STFU.
Reply:These look good... although they are upside down as others mentioned. Easy fix. Put a hole in the center plate, that now becomes your lift eye, and flip your ends eyes to the other side. The eyes you used are for securing loads... not really lifting... but with the weights involved there will be no issue with them. That said... I have a spreader bar that uses them.  This calculator would have been helpful I suspect.http://metalgeek.com/static/deflection.phpWith 2" material the deflection is around 0.20" which is a little high for a lifting application... If you'd used 2.5" the deflection would have been acceptable without the tension supports.This is a single point lift I made a while back. We do full bags of wheat with this... so around 2000 lbs. Food for thought. http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=39717Now I suggest you sell him a cradle that he can park the sander on... so when he needs to load/unload he only needs to raise and lower it a few inches. Something nice with wheels so it's easy to store or move around.Last edited by forhire; 03-20-2012 at 11:36 AM.
Reply:To all the above, First, the customer is not a best friend but what I would call more than an aqaintance, I used to be his driver at work, now I out rank him. Spent a lot of time togeter, including playing on hockey teams together. So what was my reward for a "decent" or better price? He asked " I guess the price didn't include paint ? "  A detail I purposely left out to keep the price in his limited range. He liked them but said they look " heavy".   Next issue, Upside down, thought you would point that out?  know about tension vs. compression.  The load is 350 lbs each, I don't see him using them for much else and if they fall into different hands over time it is up to the person possessing them to use them within proper limits. Also a big factor here is clearance issues on his gantry and lifting apparatus, that is a hole other long story. In the end, I will be carefull what I do for friends and how generous a discount I give, I and experienced enough to know better but soft enough to help a guy and take a kick for doing it. getting less sympathetic everyday though. I am limited part time so I don't do this to eat, also I like creating the different designs to solve what other people think are huge problems. I still thoroughly enjoy doing some of these back yard projects just to exercise the brain a little. I am willing to bet there won't be as much deflection as you spec'd above with the load in ?.  Anyway I will look into the load calculator as another tool in the arsenal, thanks for linking it.  Next project I got in mind is for me, and it involves a truss? have to wait till I bring it out."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireThese look good... although they are upside down as others mentioned. Easy fix. Put a hole in the center plate, that now becomes your lift eye, and flip your ends eyes to the other side. The eyes you used are for securing loads... not really lifting... but with the weights involved there will be no issue with them. That said... I have a spreader bar that uses them.  This calculator would have been helpful I suspect.http://metalgeek.com/static/deflection.phpWith 2" material the deflection is around 0.20" which is a little high for a lifting application... If you'd used 2.5" the deflection would have been acceptable without the tension supports.This is a single point lift I made a while back. We do full bags of wheat with this... so around 2000 lbs. Food for thought. http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=39717Now I suggest you sell him a cradle that he can park the sander on... so when he needs to load/unload he only needs to raise and lower it a few inches. Something nice with wheels so it's easy to store or move around.
Reply:Originally Posted by kolotD rings, Once again I don't want to flame him but the individual is about price, these were cheap @ , I'm afraid to say, HF, and they went on super quick. once again 175lbs each.
Reply:Leave the gloves on... I did the math wrong!   I was assuming 700 lbs per spreader... but it was actually only 350 lbs per side. My mistake, I didn't mean to offend. That puts your deflection at 0.1017". I normally take the length and divide it by 600 to get a maximum acceptable deflection, which in this case would be 72/600=0.12". Your well under. In my opinion... with your additional bracing it's actually over built. Square tube can actually take a lot of deflection before it yields... I'd guess it could deflect an inch or more and still return to the original shape.I have a spreader bar that uses the same eyes. I built it years ago before I knew better. I've unloaded a LOT material with it without any issues. I'd build it different now.Thanks for posting the project because we all glean ideas and tips from the process. I really liked the centering method.
Reply:I'm lost.  What is a plastic poly sander? Its obviously large, fragile, and gets used by a landscaper.Is this some sort of fancy device to spread sand?   Why would they make something like that fragile?  Can you explain?Thx, zip.Edit...  Wait a second... Is this something that the landscaper adds to his truck to help with his snow removal business?Ha, that reminds me of a funny story.  In 1978 I was working in Bad Kissingen, W. Germany (B-10E).  There was a snow storm, truck came by towing a trailer.  The trailer had a plywood box on it, low, maybe two, or two and a half feet tall, barely.   Out of the back of truck came a steady stream of sand.  There was no noise at all.  I was like, wow what a cool machine.  Spreads the sand far,  I was wondering how it was powered.  When the trailer finally passed me I looked inside.  There was a guy laying on his side inside the box with a hand trowel tossing sand out the back of the trailer.  I'm sure my mouth dropped open.Apologies for going off topic..Last edited by zipzit; 03-21-2012 at 07:49 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireLeave the gloves on... I did the math wrong!   I was assuming 700 lbs per spreader... but it was actually only 350 lbs per side. My mistake, I didn't mean to offend. That puts your deflection at 0.1017". I normally take the length and divide it by 600 to get a maximum acceptable deflection, which in this case would be 72/600=0.12". Your well under. In my opinion... with your additional bracing it's actually over built. Square tube can actually take a lot of deflection before it yields... I'd guess it could deflect an inch or more and still return to the original shape.I have a spreader bar that uses the same eyes. I built it years ago before I knew better. I've unloaded a LOT material with it without any issues. I'd build it different now.Thanks for posting the project because we all glean ideas and tips from the process. I really liked the centering method.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammIs it actually overbuilt, or simply a waste of material.
Reply:I think you're looking at a simple cantilever.  The load in the center load being the upward force on the truss (reversed it would be downward in the center span), and the load on the ends being the downward force (the anchor point/points if reversed).  In other words, it's flipping the traditional truss over so to speak.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantilever_trusshttp://chestofbooks.com/architecture...r-Trusses.htmlIn the second link FIGURE #6 illustrates the principle the simplest way.  The anchor point, if the center post is centered, applies a force equal to the load at the far point of the cantilver where it hangs free.We're used to seeing trusses used in the conventional way, like the roof on our house, but a load is a load, whether the truss is "upright" or "inverted".Again, the key is the locked up hinge points in the "web" if it's called that.It's a rain day, and I can't get out in the "shop" , the roof's leaking   So I gots lottsa spare time to cause trouble "Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireLeave the gloves on... I did the math wrong!   I was assuming 700 lbs per spreader... but it was actually only 350 lbs per side. My mistake, I didn't mean to offend. That puts your deflection at 0.1017". I normally take the length and divide it by 600 to get a maximum acceptable deflection, which in this case would be 72/600=0.12". Your well under. In my opinion... with your additional bracing it's actually over built. Square tube can actually take a lot of deflection before it yields... I'd guess it could deflect an inch or more and still return to the original shape.I have a spreader bar that uses the same eyes. I built it years ago before I knew better. I've unloaded a LOT material with it without any issues. I'd build it different now.Thanks for posting the project because we all glean ideas and tips from the process. I really liked the centering method.
Reply:Sam after looking at your links and giving thought to you calling it a simple cantilever I beg to differ, I would call it a simple beam with point loading at the center."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammIs it actually overbuilt, or simply a waste of material?The moment would seem to be in the center of the "beam".  The bracing on the underside would have a tendancy to buckle in a high load situation.  The bottom "flange" (round stock) is free to buckle as it's not tied to the top "flange" (tubing) at the center of the beam.Your calculations show the tubing, by itself, to be adequate for the anticipated load.  You're sugar coating it when you suggest the bottom bracing, as built, is anything more than window dressing.  To be anything approaching a true truss, the corners would have to be "locked" by diagonal bracing taking the place of a traditional web.I know you mean well, but it's not helping anyone understand the stresses involved.Ok, I'll go climb back under my rock
Reply:Here's a Poly Caster by Fisher  If you can see the ratchet tie down, that pocket is 1 of 4 used for picking the unit."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Flip that spreader bar over and it'll look just like an old truss type bridge. Same concept same stresses when loaded in the center or near center. Sure that round stock is in compression, but it will take a pretty good load or bounce to bow any one of those short sections in any direction. If that sliding center for unknown balance points wasn't needed then the truss portion could have been made with a lot lighter material and a ton of diagonals I suppose. Popsicle stick design.   But he needs to be able to adjust that center pivot point when he has some sand in there so it is what it is. That sliding tube still provides a good amount of resistance to the round stock bowing to a non-return point. And you're not picking up a school buss full of kids with it."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore RooseveltOriginally Posted by kolot . . .he was hesitant when I told him the price. I would charge considerably more for someone else or on the next one. . . .
Reply:You're right about it being closer to a center loaded beam instead of a cantilever.  I messed up.  I think I failed to realize the loading is at a balance point all the time.It would have been a cantilever if a fat dood were sitting on one end of a see-saw with the center pivot welded solid I see the need for the moving balance point in your application, I had the same problem on an older project.  I went back to the archives for this one A simple beam with a sliding balance point.  The material is 3/16 wall 3x3 square tubing with a collar made of 1/4 or 3/8 plate.It was made to handle a load that would have varying points of balance at different times.The load is around 1200lbs when the thing is fully loaded with welder and cart, including the weight of the skid.  And, as your application, it's a live load in that it swings and can encounter bumps in the road.  Sudden bumps can multiply the effective load many times over.  Inertia and kinetic energy are strong forces.Again, I have to apologize to everyone for the mistake on the type of beam were talking about.  The true cantilever beam in this picture is the crane, not the pick beam on the skid.When looking at the crane it should be noted that the moment is at the juncture of the main mast and the connection to the 3pt hitch, also the juncture of main mast and secondary mast.  The strongback merely reduces deflection at the midpoint of the mast.  I felt that the strongback didn't have to be continued to the junction of mast and 3pt.  The deflection of the short length of unreinforced tubing between the strongback and the joint is minimal due to the ability of the material to withstand a lot of stress over a short distance.  The strongback on the secondary mast is designed the same way.I know you don't like the way it had to be done either.  The only way to resurrect the current design sorta would be to change the bracing, and make a sliding pair of collars to work around the center obstruction I guess.Simple way would have been to use a 3x5 11ga piece of rectangular tubing.  The sliding collar would have to be long enough in the contact area to spread the point load without deforming the beam at the balance point.  You wouldn't want to hang it on a knife edge so to speak.Chances are your lifting device will work just fine.  Only thing would be if the guy decides to lift the hopper with a partial load of sand or something.This would be the same discussion if I were standing around with a bunch of buddies over a few cans of beer (if it was my beer night  )"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Sam that setup on your welder skid is very similar to say the least. I did not mention in my previous posts that the overall span on the picking beams is 6 feet 3 inches, that was the spread of the picking pockets on the sander. Am I wrong or that doesn't look like 5K worth of plastic? LOL"Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepThat's where engineer types earn their keep; with designs that are both good enough and cheap enough. By starting with a different shape, you can sell the next one for less, while earning more.Good Luck
Reply:Hey Kolot... I was loading some bar today and decided to snap a photo and upload a picture of my lift beam. I use this with a 1 ton hoist to load bar on my band saw. Understand that I would not build it like this again.  At the time I had an idea in my head and I went to Napa and picked up what I thought would work. The beam is a W4x13 wide beam and is 4 feet long. It has worked for several years. And frequently does near a ton. The round bar in the photo weighs 435 lbs.My ceiling in this part of the shop is low so height in an issue. The gantry is about an inch under the lights but even at that by the time you take into account the hoist and trolly... the lift height is severely impacted. I've been thinking of building a new bar... I'm estimating I'd pick up about another 10" to 12" of lift height.  Attached ImagesLast edited by forhire; 03-25-2012 at 04:40 AM.
Reply:Farmersamm Thanks for the very interesting resourse.. I think I will be exploring this further.   http://chestofbooks.com/Miller thunderbolt 250Decastar 135ERecovering tool-o-holic ESAB OAI have been interested or involved in Electrical, Fire Alarm, Auto, Marine, Welding, Electronics ETC to name a just a few. So YES you can own too many tools.
Reply:Nice work.I gave a price for a fuel cell for a friend.. I was about $40 less then summit racing.. he was still himming and hawing..   Doesn't make sense to me...www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireI've been thinking of building a new bar... I'm estimating I'd pick up about another 10" to 12" of lift height.
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireHey Kolot... I was loading some bar today and decided to snap a photo and upload a picture of my lift beam. I use this with a 1 ton hoist to load bar on my band saw. Understand that I would not build it like this again.  At the time I had an idea in my head and I went to Napa and picked up what I thought would work. The beam is a W4x13 wide beam and is 4 feet long. It has worked for several years. And frequently does near a ton. The round bar in the photo weighs 435 lbs.My ceiling in this part of the shop is low so height in an issue. The gantry is about an inch under the lights but even at that by the time you take into account the hoist and trolly... the lift height is severely impacted. I've been thinking of building a new bar... I'm estimating I'd pick up about another 10" to 12" of lift height.
Reply:Originally Posted by zipzitForhire.. Those end of the bar button stops make me very nervous.  It the load ever shifted youd be in trouble.  How about just trimming the bottom flange three inches at each end of the beam, then adding large diameter hole through middle of web?  Use a shackle at each end.  The load would be pure shear there, moment matters in the middle of the beam, not at the end.