Starting "cold" 7018

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I've gotten pretty good with 7018AC rod using my Hobart Stickmate 235 AC welder. Deep, straight, neat, strong beads, no problem.  But I have one issue that keeps nagging: starting a "cold" weld.  Once I've traveled an inch or two and it's heated up, everything's fine; I can cruise along until I use up the whole rod. If it does go out, I instantly touch the puddle with it and it starts again.But when I first start and everything's still "cold," I have a HECK of a time getting it going. It just will NOT start; it keeps grabbing the metal and sticking, like a magnet was pulling it.  I was trying to do some inside corner horizontal welds this afternoon, 3/16" - 1/4" metal, laying the root bead with 3/32 @100 amps, then a couple more layers with 1/8 @ about 135 amps.  I've tried varying the current both ways, and it makes no difference.The 2nd layer was a little easier to start, because the previous bead was still almost red hot. but it still stuck several times because the rod was dead cold. But that very first bead, when everything's cold, had me using some language that I didn't know I had..  I'm thinking maybe I could preheat the rod tip for a couple of seconds in a propane torch flame, but that's really a bubble gum solution; I know that's not what I'm supposed to do. Any tips or advice would really be appreciated.Last edited by Ruark; 07-08-2011 at 10:41 PM.
Reply:have a scrap piece of metal  and crank the machine up (not to crazy) and long arc it for a second until it warms up.or get an oven like 7018 is supposed to be stored in to keep moister out of the flux
Reply:Are you using hot rods?
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardAre you using hot rods?
Reply:Originally Posted by RuarkNot sure what you mean.
Reply:"Hot Rods" is a reference to rods that are stored in a heated rod box....But from the description, it sounds to me you are having a poor ground issue. Make sure the ground clamp is close to the weld area and is connected to cleaned raw metal.Miller TrailBlazer 251Miller HF-250-1Miller MaxStar 150 STLHyperTherm PowerMax 380 plasmaLincoln PowerMig 180Millermatic 252Miller Diversion 180
Reply:I have no troubles like you describe with Lincoln 7018AC.  Maybe change brands?Gordie -- "I believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Reply:Strike your arc an inch or so ahead of where you want the weld bead to start. As the arc strikes keep it long and move back over to the location you want to start the bead. This will preheat the base metal in the start area and give the rod a chance to get going and build the gas shielding. Hold in position for a second as you start the weld bead to ensure proper shielding so you dont end up with porosity at the start of the bead. Continue on as usual.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Originally Posted by wagin"Hot Rods" is a reference to rods that are stored in a heated rod box....But from the description, it sounds to me you are having a poor ground issue. Make sure the ground clamp is close to the weld area and is connected to cleaned raw metal.
Reply:Originally Posted by RuarkThanks for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it. A little reflection so far: - from what I've read here and elsewhere a thousand times, it's a myth that you have to keep 7018 (or 7018AC) in a rod oven, unless you're doing super-critical code work. Many veteran welders have been grabbing 7018 off a shelf for decades with absolutely no issues whatsoever.  That seems to be the case with me as well. I do store all of my rod in those red plastic tubes.
Reply:Originally Posted by Ruark - from what I've read here and elsewhere a thousand times, it's a myth that you have to keep 7018 (or 7018AC) in a rod oven, unless you're doing super-critical code work. Many veteran welders have been grabbing 7018 off a shelf for decades with absolutely no issues whatsoever.  That seems to be the case with me as well. I do store all of my rod in those red plastic tubes. - I could just need more practice.  Lya think
Reply:I'm going to have to ask, if a person is not concerned at all about the low hydrogen characteristics of a particular rod, why are they even screwing with it in the 1st place?"The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:Originally Posted by SandyI'm going to have to ask, if a person is not concerned at all about the low hydrogen characteristics of a particular rod, why are they even screwing with it in the 1st place?
Reply:I concur with the oldtimers here, but one thing I didn't read (I may have overlooked) was your striking method.  For the new hands I meet that are having trouble like you is they are are jabbing the rod against the parent metal.  They tap it.  If you were to strike the rod like you do a match I believe you would have a better time.
Reply:I think the one thing that happens when learning to run stick is that you work up to a setting that is comfortable to use when running rod. Not knowing how accurate you machine settings are can be a problem and you should be making your adjustments more by what you are seeing rather then picking an amp setting. You stated that after an inch or two the rod get hot an runs fine, this may be an indicator that you should run more amps to start with. One practice exercise you can do is pick a rod and run it and on the next one turn the machine up 5 amps and run another bead and repeat till its too hot. Once you reach that point you can then take a step back down to where you can run the rod and might find that its at a higher setting then before.
Reply:Originally Posted by SandyI'm going to have to ask, if a person is not concerned at all about the low hydrogen characteristics of a particular rod, why are they even screwing with it in the 1st place?
Reply:RuarkI think your problem is absorbed moisture.Here in florida the rods will go to crap in a week or less if not kept sealed in theairtight plastic screw-tubes.   Usualy I notice they will NOT start no matter what you do.If they are slightly contaminated sometimes they will start at the tip but then never re-start in the middle.   I have learned the hard way don't waste time and money on rods ofunknown oregin or opened boxes.  wet rods are INFURIATING !I also like 7018 for the ease of use and pretty welds they make. usualy allmost no splatter.maybe its a crutch (?)   I am learning 6010/6011.  Not a pretty weld on its surfaceand slower to deposit but a good penetrator for farm stuff.  I think it might be harder to make a pretty weld with though.  ( I havn't made one yet ! )I have been using fleetweld 7018  and it strikes very easy.  Try making a motion like the bottom of a rocking chair.   In the middle of the rodpinch the end of the flux with your fingertips to break the edge off the flux about 1-2 mm back on one side.  rotate the broken side downso it contacts the work.  I f you look at the flux you will see that it is usualy longer than the rod making it hard to make contactwith the work.TimLast edited by jethro; 07-10-2011 at 02:26 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat Bastardgetting the bottom line final answer from a bunch of blokes that use false names and put smiley faces at the end of paragraphs is not the best place in the world to get the information you seek.
Reply:Originally Posted by Welding_SwedeWell Put!!!Ought to be a signature. There is a lot of good and reliable info on this site. There is also a lot of BS. Trouble is in sifting through the nonsense and deciding what to keep and what to toss.
Reply:Hot rods just run better. Preheat the base metal to dry off moisture and raise initial temperature to 150 degrees for metal 3/8" and greater thickness. Another suggestion is, beware of the slag cap on a used rod, if you stop before the end of a rod is reached, shake that red hot slag off the tip.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:check your connections.  clean and tighten everything. also good ground to work very helpful.
Reply:Originally Posted by RuarkActually, this is a very good question; forgetting 7018 and going to 7014 instead. 7018 seems to be the industry standard for filling over a 6010/6011 root, and it makes very strong, reliable welds. According to many people, it's better than 7014 for out of position welding, the reason being that 7014 tends to be drippier.  Also, correct me if I'm wrong, 7018 gives a bit better penetration than 7014. BTW.. for what it's worth, this is mostly ag welding - just stuff around the farm. Welding bucket hooks onto the FEL, working on corrals and sheds, making hay racks, stuff like that. I don't do much metal below 3/16 to 1/4" thick, and go up to 1/2."  Occasionally I'll do 1/8" using angle iron for a rack or brace.What I WANT to do is have 2 go-to rods for just about everything. 6011 for dirty metal, and 7018 or 7014 (or whatever) for cleaner metal or where better strength is needed.
Reply:Thanks for all the good tips and info.  For now, I will keep practicing with the 7018 and use some of the ideas that were posted.  I do keep my rods in the red airtight screw-tubes. They go from the black plastic Hobart containers straight to the red tubes, and I only take out what I'm going to use at that moment. That's the best I can do; I don't weld enough to justify a rod oven.  If, after practicing and trying everything, I just can't get consistent starts with 7018AC, I guess I'll have to move to 7014.
Reply:Originally Posted by RuarkActually, this is a very good question; forgetting 7018 and going to 7014 instead. 7018 seems to be the industry standard for filling over a 6010/6011 root, and it makes very strong, reliable welds. According to many people, it's better than 7014 for out of position welding, the reason being that 7014 tends to be drippier.  Also, correct me if I'm wrong, 7018 gives a bit better penetration than 7014.
Reply:Originally Posted by RuarkThanks for all the good tips and info.  For now, I will keep practicing with the 7018 and use some of the ideas that were posted.  I do keep my rods in the red airtight screw-tubes. They go from the black plastic Hobart containers straight to the red tubes, and I only take out what I'm going to use at that moment. That's the best I can do; I don't weld enough to justify a rod oven.  If, after practicing and trying everything, I just can't get consistent starts with 7018AC, I guess I'll have to move to 7014.Originally Posted by SandyThe reason for my question was sort of pointed towards the why's of using any particular rod to begin with. 7018 has several desirable characteristics for sure of which the low hydrogen weld composition is one of the biggies. So what I was alluding to is that if a person were to buy a lo-hi rod but not want to care for or maintain that rod in a manner that preserves it's lo-hi attributes then one reason for using it is gone right there. Then if you don't like the way it runs or restrikes then there are more reasons yet to move on to something else. Of course this applies only to the around the house and farm scenario where a lo-hi isn't mandated.Don't forget now that the 1st two digits tell a lot. When you're messing with 40k, 50k or even 60k steel there aren't a lot of times you'll need 70k rod. As far as strength is concerned us hobby and DIY guys have time on our side. If you're doing something to cut back on the costs of having a pro do it then you replace the dollars you'd normally pay a pro with the time necessary to do it right. I'll get hammered for this I'm sure but I'll say it anyway, not necessarily pointed at Ruark: I really believe that a ton of folks go for 7018 only because they hear that that is what the big dogs use. They've heard so much about the excellent weld characteristics and every pro has some on his rig and they think they can override a bunch of poor technique by just pouring some 7018 on it. They've also heard 6013 called 'farmer rod' so there's no way they are gonna touch it.
Reply:Another characteristic of the 7018 is that it is a good rod to use to repair cracks and is a good rod to use in high vibration areas. I think a lot of the problem the original poster is having would go away if he wasn’t in a hurry to start his weld, and built up a little puddle and waited for the arch to stabilize.
Reply:Originally Posted by 6010Another characteristic of the 7018 is that it is a good rod to use to repair cracks and is a good rod to use in high vibration areas. I think a lot of the problem the original poster is having would go away if he wasn’t in a hurry to start his weld, and built up a little puddle and waited for the arch to stabilize.
Reply:Originally Posted by SandyI'll get hammered for this I'm sure but I'll say it anyway, not necessarily pointed at Ruark: I really believe that a ton of folks go for 7018 only because they hear that that is what the big dogs use. They've heard so much about the excellent weld characteristics....
Reply:Originally Posted by RuarkThe results were:6010......10 blows6011......8 blows7014......10 blows7018......18 blows +The 7018 "had never been inside an oven" and had been "sitting around the shop in an open container."  Number of blows for oven-stored 7018 was in the low 20's. Some people tried to duplicate the test and broke the 6011 with only 2 blows.  7014 stood there, then snapped like glass.  The 7018 had to be hammered in both directions before it would part.When a new person sees things like this, it's hard not to start thinking, "jeez, I better start using 7018..."
Reply:Have you had any improvement yet, though it is a little soon. In researching info did you come across anything that stated  the benefits of DC over AC. Having a DC capable machine may help get you on your way to improving sooner over AC. A second thing is that everyone seems to be talking about 7018 as if it is all the same. There is quite a range in how well it runs from brand to brand with 7018ac being the worst. At times I would go by the local CC where I took my welding classes and I would see some of the students struggling and I would go out to my car and get some of the good rod. It would make a big difference to these guy because being able to run the better rod would be like a night and day difference to them.
Reply:Originally Posted by RuarkThere's a LOT of truth in that.  For example, I must have read a couple hundred forum posts on the subject of welding chain hooks to your front end loader bucket, and ALL of them, without exception, used 7018, sometimes with a 6011 root.  It's all you hear: 7018, 7018, 7018. It's like the subject's not open to discussion.In another internet welding forum, a guy tested the popular rods by welding a t-joint inside corner, then noting how many blows with a 4 pound hammer it took to break the weld. The blows were as identical as he could make them. The results were:6010......10 blows6011......8 blows7014......10 blows7018......18 blows +The 7018 "had never been inside an oven" and had been "sitting around the shop in an open container."  Number of blows for oven-stored 7018 was in the low 20's. Some people tried to duplicate the test and broke the 6011 with only 2 blows.  7014 stood there, then snapped like glass.  The 7018 had to be hammered in both directions before it would part.When a new person sees things like this, it's hard not to start thinking, "jeez, I better start using 7018..."
Reply:Originally Posted by RuarkWhat I WANT to do is have 2 go-to rods for just about everything. 6011 for dirty metal, and 7018 or 7014 (or whatever) for cleaner metal or where better strength is needed.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardWTF do you not understand this is the internet. So some yahoo hits some metal and this is your empirical evidence that you should follow his advise. You are  hopeless.
Reply:Originally Posted by Ruarkwhy aren't all those guys using 7014 for their bucket hooks?  All that being said, it could be a moisture issue, as one poster suggested.  I have observed varying amounts of porosity at the very beginning of the bead; it vanishes after about half an inch, then I can weld just fine with the rest of the rod, as the heat cooks out the moisture.  I really want to stay with 7018 if I can.  I wonder if I could just heat the end of the rod with a propane torch for a few seconds before using it. I know of at least one person who had the same hard-starting issue and claims that this fixed it.
Reply:I understand some of what you are going thru trying to grasp this information. Lots of it is quite complicated. Sandy's Essab link has a lot of good information, even if you can't understand all of it right now. Read all of it. Lincoln also has a very good book "The Procedure Handbook of Arc Welding" ie "the Bible". It's not cheap, but if you get an older version most of the information is still the same and you can save some cash as a hobbiest. AWS has a ton of books, all of them quite expensive, that cover every sort of welding procedure you can imagine. I forget what section covers heavy equipment repair, but I garantee there is one. All of this information is FACT, not internet hear say. A good bit of it may not be understandable if you are not studying to be  a welding engineer or have the background to understand it, but it's still true none the less. As far as the chain hook reference, you have to understand WHY people recomend something... Chain hooks are usually high tensile steel, not your basic A36 plate. Because of it's makeup it has a few quirks when welded. The metal itself crystalizes as it cools and hydrogen can cause cracking issues between these crystals. (all metals crystalize, but how and what size the crystals form has a lot to do with the strength of the metal after the weld. ) Because the hooks are often used for overhead lifting, cracks are bad. Having a high charpy impact rating for shock loads is also important. Therefore you probably want to use a low hydrogen rod.  All of this is a very poor explanation of the issues involved, but hopefully it makes some sense. I'd probably choose  8018 over  7018 for this because the 80K tensile strength better matches the original alloy of the hook.As far as "hearsay" information... Remember may people want to do just like you do. They want just a couple "go to" rods rather than having a ton of different rods they only occasionally use. 7018 is a good all around rod, but it has storage issues. It's certainly capable of doing everything 7014 can. The reverse is not true. Thats fine if you burn enough rod to run thru it regularly, or can afford a rod oven to store it properly. Also keep in mind architects and engineers seldom do a "full" design.They simply pull known information from a chart and copy/paste these to the drawing or use the information to do their calculations. That doesn't mean that's the only rod that would have worked, only that thats the rod they picked. There's a ton of info on 7018 out there, less on some of the less popular rods. Chances are 7018 will get picked simply because it's "easy" to grab the information. Also keep in mind basic liability... If you have to pick a rod with out all the information, it's easier to defend yourself in court if you pick a rod thats an "industry standard" than some other equally good, but lesser known rod. I often see tons of useless information copy/pasted to drawings, usually by some low level office guy who's processing the drawings. To cover their azz they simply pull up stock specs and dump them on the prints, whether they apply or not..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:There is a difference between brands more so when you weld a lot. If you were to get a mix of rod brands and have a group of good experienced welders do a blind weld test, they would be able to tell you the difference. Your current issues are more then likely 1) volt/amp curve of your ac machine isn't ideal and a dc machine would be better. 2) 7018ac rods are bad compared to dc rods 3) your current level of understanding stick welding. Post your location maybe someone might be nearby to help.
Reply:the oven in the house works for rod drying,wives don t seem to care for the process though,i can never believe the puddle of water that collects on the top of my rod oven even when the rods come straight out of a "hermetically " sealed box,house ovens also work for testing operation of spring style chrysler exhaust heat risers,that gets you in way more trouble,so i fired her[insert thousands of happy faces here]
Reply:I will swear up and down, on a stack of Bibles, that I posted a reply to this thread the other night.Only thing I can figure is that maybe I was in a drunken stupor, and didn't hit the "submit" button  I get one "Beer Night" a week these days  I'm sort of on a tight leash nowdays.  So maybe it was on Beer Night7018 usually starts cold.  Hang around a bit, and let the puddle warm up before proceeding with the weld.  I've also heard of using a "run on" tab, but I never have had to do it in the kind of stuff I do.Hot rods.........  I use a hot box when it's really humid, but (ok, shoot me), mostly store the stuff in the house and don't take a huge bunch outside at a time.  But then again, I don't build bridges or pressure vessels.  The rust kills my stuff before the welds fail"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersamm7018 usually starts cold.  Hang around a bit, and let the puddle warm up before proceeding with the weld.
Reply:Did your try snoeproe's suggestion of striking the arc an inch or so away from where you want the start your bead then work your way back to your actual start?
Reply:Throw some in the oven next time and try the hot stuff.  See if it makes a difference and adjust accordingly.
Reply:Originally Posted by jmtebbensThrow some in the oven next time and try the hot stuff.  See if it makes a difference and adjust accordingly.
Reply:Originally Posted by RuarkNawwww, we're rural folk.  Propane.
Reply:Your welding machine is not ideal for 7018.  I used to have an Airco 225 AC buzzbox years ago when I started welding on my own.  Had the same problem 7018 was hard to start but welded fine once you got it going.  Once I upgraded to a bigger DC welder the problem went away.The AC buzzboxes have relatively low voltage compared to industrial welders, which makes it hard to start 7018 rod.  If you have a high and low range, keep the lead plugged into the low range which will keep the voltage as high as possible. (assuming you can set a high enough current on either range)When restarting a rod that has been partially used break off some of the coating by tapping on a concrete floor, a brick or even break it off with your fingers (make sure you wear your gloves and it has cooled before doing this)Never tried 7018 AC rod, sounds like it might work better for your machine."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25