Identifying AR500

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About 6 months ago a friend of mine bought a 4'x8' piece of 1/2" AR500 steel so I could make some steel targets for him.  It has been sitting in my shop until a couple weeks ago, and I finally started cutting it up on my PlasmaCam table.  I am making some dualing trees, and needed to make a small hole for a pin to keep the plates from bouncing up out of their spots.  Now, I had read that AR500 was too hard to drill without carbide bits and such, so I figured I would heat the spot I want to drill since it does not need to be hard there, and then drill it.  But, just for kicks I decided to try drilling first.  With just a cheap DeWalt 1/8" bit, (it was what was in the drill press at the time), it drills just like mild steel!  What gives?  I shot some of it, and it does fine with pistol rounds up to .357 magnum.  But .223 makes little pock marks even from 60 yards.  From what I have read, .223 shouldn't do anything at all to AR500 at 60 yards.  I have seen some targets that have been shot from as close as 15 yards with .223 and have nothing more than a smear on it from the bullet.I'm kind of thinking we got screwed, paying for AR500 and getting regular HR mild steel?  I sure hope not, because it was really expensive, and wasn't local!!!!!  But this just doesn't seem right.  Any thoughts?If it helps, it came pretty dark with heavy, broken up mill scale.
Reply:Yep sounds like mild steel to meBe careful the bullet hits those divots just right and they can come back at youI got hit with ak bullet that way and I was carrying the shoot clock bullet hit me sideways in the fore arm ...perfect imprint and the jacket cut me like a razorBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Not a scientific test for sure but hard plate has a different ring to it when you give it a smack with a hammer, lot sharper sound. The mill scale doesn't look like it's attached like it does on ms, it's thicker and will flake off in a bigger area if you hit in the center of it with a centerpunch where ms won't make a much bigger flake than the size of the centerpunch...Mike
Reply:Take a piece of known mild steel and hit it with the .223 and see if there is a difference. I have a feeling a .223 hit will come close to poking a hole through 1/2" mild, especially if you are using ball ammo. I know my .280 Rem. came close to full penetration on 3/4" @ 100 yards on a mild steel target with a 140 Gr. Sierra Gameking starting out @ 2750 FPS.
Reply:@ Justme - the minimum SAFE recommended distances for shooting AR500 steel targets with .308 (7.62) and .223 (5.56) are 150 yds and 200 yds, respectively.  Sending rounds on any steel target with a.223 at 60 yds, and especially 15 yds, is unsafe and irresponsible.  Don't do it.  You got lucky.  Moreover, be sure the target's angled downward to control impact fragmentation (splatter).Now, based on your drill test & visual assessment (damage) of the target you do not have an AR500 target.  Perhaps AR200 or another abrasion resistant steel.  A .223 should damn near penetrate 1/2" A36 at 60 yds.  Quick thoughts.Drilling.  Assumed the 1/8" DeWalt HSS twist drill bit (135deg split point) has a HRC of 70, you should have met significant resistance while drilling an AR500 target with a HRC of 50.  Mild steel, on the other hand, has a HRC of 3 and that's why an HHS drill bit rips through A36 like butter.  AR500 targets can be drilled;  however, the diameters are typically less than 3/8" and the bit of preference is a solid carbide, straight flute.  Manufacturers working with AR500 steel commonly use water/plasma to rip holes.Visual Feedback.  My experience centers around impacts on 3/8" AR500 targets at medium (200-500 yds) to long range (600 yds +).  Impact to a mild steel (A36) target usually produces a hole. Clean, slightly concave on front surface, and minor tearing on rear surface.  Impacts on AR500 yield a near-flat, slightly convex crater on the front surface, and paint spalling on the rear surface.  The convexity is caused by the impacted zone s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g.  Images below show my 40% IPSC, 3/8" thickness, AR500 target.  The 1/2" mounting holes were water jetted.  The 20+ impacts are from 400 yds.  300WM, 208gr BTHPs @ 2930 fps, 70.3gr of H1000.  The target started out "white" and the impacts created the "black" marks.  The convexity to the craters is almost imperceptible, both tactilely and visually.  The afte side exhibits the classic "black" micro-spalling where the paint ejected.  When you shoot AR500, you'll know it.  If your 1/2" target was AR500 and you shot it at 200 yds with a .223, doubt you feel anything on the surface upon inspection.Contact the target seller and ask him about the pedigree of the target.  In parallel, drill a known sample of A36 for tactile comparison.  Also, post an image of your shot sample.  Lastly, spread the safety message to anyone else hot shotting their ARs at close-range on known/unknown steel targets.  A recipe for disaster.  Witness the high-velocity disentegration of bullets on steel......www.kurzzeit.com/eng/videos.htm Attached ImagesLast edited by ManoKai; 12-15-2013 at 06:39 AM."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:how about a spark test comparing it to a36 plate?i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:IPSC = yuppie combat with day glow kneepads and 2000.00 dollar race guns that jam...no thanksGet into a real shooting sport like 3 gun tactical combat much more real worldBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:@ killdozerd11 - Directed at me? Whatever dude.  The aforementioned targets were referenced for context, as a size.  Shoot those targets with long rifles, during varying environment conditions/stresses, at ranges that challenge both mental and physical.   My rigs aren't safe queens.  Never used a race gun.  3 gun "tactical combat"?  Who are you combating?  Real world?  WhatEv.   When you can hold 1 MOA at 1k+ yds, PM me.Last edited by ManoKai; 12-15-2013 at 01:43 PM."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11IPSC = yuppie combat with day glow kneepads and 2000.00 dollar race guns that jam...no thanksGet into a real shooting sport like 3 gun tactical combat much more real world
Reply:Most of the A-R plate I have seen has a purple-brown colored mill scale.Miller xmt304,  Miller S22 p12, Miier Maxstar SD, Miller 252 w 30A, Miller super32p12, Lincoln Ranger 9, Thermal Arc 181I with spoolgun, Hypertherm 10000 ,Smith torches. Esab 161lts miniarc.
Reply:Originally Posted by ManoKai@ killdozerd11 - Directed at me? Whatever dude.  The aforementioned targets were referenced for context, as a size.  Shoot those targets with long rifles, during varying environment conditions/stresses, at ranges that challenge both mental and physical.   My rigs aren't safe queens.  Never used a race gun.  3 gun "tactical combat"?  Who are you combating?  Real world?  WhatEv.   When you can hold 1 MOA at 1k+ yds, PM me.
Reply:Yeah steel targets scare me. I made several gong style out of 1/2" mild steel for my Glock 19 and i shoot any were from 15 feet to 50 feet. 1000's of rounds and lucky no frags hitting me? Am i safe at these distances? I'm retired DOD and have seen some bad *** shooters hitting targets past the 1000 yard mark. Really very awe inspiring. I always seemed to be chasing dirt puffs with the M-107. Most will have a hit after the first shot and the best hit most on the first shot depending on the wind and shooting conditions- such as sprinting 40 yards setting up with your spotter shooting and sprinting to the next shooting spot. Don't want to high jack this thread but the posters here do have some great safety points....Fireman BillHH 210 MVPMM 211 Spoolmate 100Lotas LTP5000D PlasmaOxy/Accet (Victor)Wards AC/DC buzz box30 ton old hyd pressA few brand name toolsA bunch of cheap toolsA wife to worry me and4 dogs to supervise me
Reply:@ killdozerd11 - bust'n your chops bro.  It's all good :-).  If you're shooting stock sights, you're GTG.  Nice.  Keep grinding "Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:I've got a lot to learn about steel targets.  I thought they were ok if they moved, thus absorbing the shock.  Is it better if they just angle down or swivel.  Here is proof of the danger.  This 9MM ball ammo actually came back and hit my trigger finger, damaging only my pride. Attached Images
Reply:We were doing a shoot with a quick draw tree @ 15 yards and the one guy was using 230 gr ball loaded with bullseye The bullet bounced back and hit him right in the nutz ...OMG that was all bad ...we stilled Laughed our butt off after we seen it wasn't fatalLow velocity heavy ball was a no no after thatI went to a .452-170 Gr truncated cone lead bullet using 5.5 Gr of Winchester Super Target powder...The bullet disintegrated on impact with the steel targetsIt's all good ManoKaiMy competition days ended in 1992 after the surgery .. to much nerve damage going to my right hand ..compound fracture and having all the bone shards removed and artificial shoulder joint installedI miss competingBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:I used to sell AR500 targets and was the only guy in Canada that did it. The plate actually says 500 on it, other than that you can do a file test. If you shoot mild steel you could ricochet a bullet into your head. AR500 is amazing and under controlled tests with a 7mm rem mag it left almost no mark. This was shot at very close. I sold some to a custom rifle shop and he would hammer them with .50 cal rifles all the time with no problems. The metal does have a nice ring to it.
Reply:Well, I did some more checking today.  Maybe I jumped the gun.  When I tested with the drill before I didn't actually drill all the way through it.  I just started drilling and it was like mild steel and I stopped.  Well, today I went to drill a hole all the way through.  Turns out it drills like butter for about 3/32" to 1/8".  Then it came to an abrupt stop and was definately H-A-R-D!!!  Here is what it looked like:Interestlingly, this is pretty much how deep the small pock marks left by the .223 were.  It's almost like there is a soft layer over the hard core.  Very odd. Originally Posted by ManoKai@ Justme - the minimum SAFE recommended distances for shooting AR500 steel targets with .308 (7.62) and .223 (5.56) are 150 yds and 200 yds, respectively.  Sending rounds on any steel target with a.223 at 60 yds, and especially 15 yds, is unsafe and irresponsible.  Don't do it.  You got lucky.  Moreover, be sure the target's angled downward to control impact fragmentation (splatter).Now, based on your drill test & visual assessment (damage) of the target you do not have an AR500 target.  Perhaps AR200 or another abrasion resistant steel.  A .223 should damn near penetrate 1/2" A36 at 60 yds.  Quick thoughts.Drilling.  Assumed the 1/8" DeWalt HSS twist drill bit (135deg split point) has a HRC of 70, you should have met significant resistance while drilling an AR500 target with a HRC of 50.  Mild steel, on the other hand, has a HRC of 3 and that's why an HHS drill bit rips through A36 like butter.  AR500 targets can be drilled;  however, the diameters are typically less than 3/8" and the bit of preference is a solid carbide, straight flute.  Manufacturers working with AR500 steel commonly use water/plasma to rip holes.Visual Feedback.  My experience centers around impacts on 3/8" AR500 targets at medium (200-500 yds) to long range (600 yds +).  Impact to a mild steel (A36) target usually produces a hole. Clean, slightly concave on front surface, and minor tearing on rear surface.  Impacts on AR500 yield a near-flat, slightly convex crater on the front surface, and paint spalling on the rear surface.  The convexity is caused by the impacted zone s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g.  Images below show my 40% IPSC, 3/8" thickness, AR500 target.  The 1/2" mounting holes were water jetted.  The 20+ impacts are from 400 yds.  300WM, 208gr BTHPs @ 2930 fps, 70.3gr of H1000.  The target started out "white" and the impacts created the "black" marks.  The convexity to the craters is almost imperceptible, both tactilely and visually.  The afte side exhibits the classic "black" micro-spalling where the paint ejected.  When you shoot AR500, you'll know it.  If your 1/2" target was AR500 and you shot it at 200 yds with a .223, doubt you feel anything on the surface upon inspection.Contact the target seller and ask him about the pedigree of the target.  In parallel, drill a known sample of A36 for tactile comparison.  Also, post an image of your shot sample.  Lastly, spread the safety message to anyone else hot shotting their ARs at close-range on known/unknown steel targets.  A recipe for disaster.  Witness the high-velocity disentegration of bullets on steel......www.kurzzeit.com/eng/videos.htm
Reply:JustmeYou may find that 1/2" is too thick - actually too heavy.  Compared to 3/8", the added inertial mass of 1/2" slow the recoil of the target, and results in heavier cratering.Essentially, hard and light is best.Except for the biggest game calibers, 3/8" is the mostcommon gage for the majority of rounds shot.Opus
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERROJustmeYou may find that 1/2" is too thick - actually too heavy.  Compared to 3/8", the added inertial mass of 1/2" slow the recoil of the target, and results in heavier cratering.Essentially, hard and light is best.Except for the biggest game calibers, 3/8" is the mostcommon gage for the majority of rounds shot.Opus
Reply:We shoot duty .223 and 00 buckshot (no slugs!) at steel targets all the time in training with a minimum distance of 20 yds. Our targets are poppers (angled back slightly) that will fall in one direction or will stay set when turned around 180*. For long distance we have hanging targets too. Never had anything come back.Miller Dynasty 200DXMiller 252 Miller 250xMiller Syncrowave 250Miller AEAD200 LegendMiller 375 Xtreme plasmaLincoln WeldPak 100Victor O/A
Reply:We used drop targets for pistol the bummer is you have to reset them after a hit which is no biggie doing a combat pistol course Now there are some guys who have made self resetting targets here but cannot remember whoHanging gongs are great ...until some jerk shoots the chain offWe are a very passionate group here about some thingsWelding,guns,motor sports,cars ,trucks,motorcycles,anything that moves under power,machine work,fabricating, and that's just to name a very few that can spark debate here....Which is a good thing...The old Joe told meThere is your way .My way, And the right way  Only in a debate about the first two can show us the thirdBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Pretty well-put, Al.
Reply:For those that are wanting to drill AR500, it is possible with a Mag drill and carbide annular cutters.  I was unable to find this out on the net, so I tried it with an old cutter.  It went though with little resistance and no damage to the cutter.  It was a Hougen HMD14 and 3/4" copperhead cutter versus 1/2" AR500, cut took about 20 seconds.  Lube was the Hougen wax stick.
Reply:That looks like Abrasion Resistant plate to me maybe the bottom of the plate by the scale pattern. That stuff is a whole different animal compared to as rolled plate, which usually has more of a rusty red colored scale on it. I have had a piece of AR peel off the crane magnets and it just slams the floor or rail car without bending over whatever it lands on.Ranger 250 thick stuffHobart Handler 140 not thick stuffthe pane and oxy setup
Reply:If you want to make a dueling tree they will spin better if you drill & tap for grease fittings. Originally Posted by JustmeIt is for sure on the heavy side for handguns.  I made a dualling tree, and you can tell it is heavy.  It works fine with 9mm, but just doesn't snap around.  The only thing it doesn't work reliably with is my LC9.  Shorter barrel must just drop enough velocity off the round.  The reason we went with 1/2" is I am making several sillouette targets for rifle use at longer ranges, and it was easier/more economical to get one piece of metal.  From everything I have read, you need 1/2" with .223, .308, etc.Here is a sillouette I shot today from 100 yards with .223.  Target is angled down at 15 degrees +- a couple.  Here you can see some pistol rounds having no effect at all.Here is the one shot from 60 yards.  One round hit right on the edge and chipped a chunk off.  The dimple is about 1/16"-3/32" deep.  About the same as the drill bit went before stopping.I notice that the 100 yard and 60 yard impacts look identical.  Maybe the dimple is just in the mill scale?
Reply:I still don't think its AR500, shouldn't be any real marks left that you can feel. Could be AR200 or AR400 or a regular high strength steel but I doubt its AR500.
Reply:That is not AR500
Reply:That's what I was afraid of!  Seems the steel yards around here all have AR400, but no one had 500.  We drove over 400 miles round trip to get this!Sent from my C811 4G using Tapatalk
Reply:@ justme - No way it's AR500. Even with a high-energy 75gr Hornady HBPT banging it at 100yds (1,100 ft-lbs energy), the impact should only produce micro-divots and ejected black marks.  You prob used a 55-60gr bullet.  If so, the net delivered energy would attenuate even more.  AR200, at best, or alloyed sample of unknown origin.  PM me if intetested in AR500 from a west coast seller. Honest, competitive pricing, multi-shaped targets, and flat rate shipped."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:Just don't forget the 5.56 has the M855 rounds.  Punches pretty hard. Not that that was what he was using, but just in case anyone has the generic thought that a ".223 won't penetrate". A lot of folks don't give much thought to what they are shooting. Just buy whatever is on sale and blast away. Similar rounds are available for the 7.62x39."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:@ Sandy - Check.  Ran those ballistics on the SS109/M855 (62g FMJ-BT).  The "109" can penetrate up to  1/8" of mild steel at 650 yds.  At 100 yds and 650 yds, the S109 would deliver 1160 ft-lbs and 302 ft-lbs, respectively.  Only an approximate increase of 5% when compared to the aforementioned 62 gr Hornady HPBT.  Makes no diff to the steel surface. By comparison, a 300WM powering a 208gr bullet to 100 yds and 650 yds would hammer at 3500 ft-lbs and 1900 ft-lbs, respectively.  An illustration of the concept in "velocity retention" between a .308 and .223 mass.Last edited by ManoKai; 12-17-2013 at 09:53 PM."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi