Mystery Welder - Singel or 3-Phase?

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I found a big old welder that I have first claim on for $100.Trouble is, neither the seller nor me know if it's 230 volt 3-phase or 230 volt single phase. The welder sits in a closed up muffler-spring shop in Kingston (2 hour away) and both the seller and me live in Ottawa.The seller provided a picture but there was dirt all over the face-plate making it hard to read the input or out power details.I thought maybe one of you could figure this out.Here are the facts:The welder is an Airco, D.C. BUMBLEBEE, Model 4DDRS-24 B.This is a big machine, the seller saw it for the first time in years yesterday and said it was too big to fit in his SUV. It was also too heavy for him to even lift one corner. He guesses 250+ lbs.According to my goggle searches... the first number '4' in the Airco model number stands for the amps output, in this case 400 amps. Also I think the dirty label on the welder appears to say input "K.W. 28.8". (Aside note: I don't think you get that kind of power from a 230 volt single phase input - but I could be wrong.  e.g. To output 400 amps at say 30-35 arc volts, it's going to draw something like 130 amps at 230 volts on single phase.)Further in the picture (too high res to include here), it does looks like it says, "HREE" - likely for THREE phase.Anyway, that was where we were until the seller went down to fetch it back to Ottawa but found it too big & heavy to transport back!  Sadly, he did not look closely at the front panel of the welder! (He's 80% blind too.) Also, he didn't take another close up picture! However he had his wife take a picture of the power receptacle they plug the welder into. He sent me the picture and I played match picture to NEMA receptacles.  It appeared to be a NEMA L17-30R, that is 30 amps, 600 volts, 3 pole, 4 wire grounding. Huh? That's only 18 KW input.Further, the seller is is quite insistant that the shop was wired::a) for 230 volts, and b) single phase only - "definetly no 3-phase"I don't know, maybe the electrican used the wrong receptacle and matching welder plug?  That receptacle/plug combo is quite similar to a 208 volt 30 amp configuration, but for certain the photo of the receprtacle shows a NEMA L17-30. The seller is going to check with the electrician that wired the shop.Given the big 400 amp DC only power output, I'm certain it's more likely to be a 3-phase machine but... ???So given these clues, can you offer any direction?Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:My guess: It is being cripple by the input and not reaching its full potential, but still working.
Reply:Here's some pictures, maybe thet will help.Here's the welder... Big Bast***.Here's the front panel - full resolution of the picture I was given.See lower left of picture, just above the positive terminal connection.I can read ???? PHASE. Her's the receptacle that they used to plug in the welder.Any joy... single or three-phase?Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Looks like 3 phase to me. And here in the states, 3 phase is usually 208V from phase to phase in the 200 volt category.That plug will give you 3 phases and ground.Send me a copy of that second pic. I'll need to blow it up to see what I can make out.Lincoln Idealarc 250 (circa 1962)Lincoln Weldpak 155 w/Mig KitLincoln Squarewave TIG 175
Reply:Here's the best blow up I could do of the face plate.Any help?Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Check your PM.Lincoln Idealarc 250 (circa 1962)Lincoln Weldpak 155 w/Mig KitLincoln Squarewave TIG 175
Reply:OK Papa - check ur email.Here's a pic of the receptacle used for the welder and the look alike NEMA receptacles.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:I found 1  a airco 4ddrs-24b  for sale it said 230 460 volt 3 phase 60 cycle. And that looks to be your model numberMiller thunderbolt 250Decastar 135ERecovering tool-o-holic ESAB OAI have been interested or involved in Electrical, Fire Alarm, Auto, Marine, Welding, Electronics ETC to name a just a few. So YES you can own too many tools.
Reply:Yeah... I saw a few on google and if they said anything about phase, it was always 3 phase.Still, in the picture of the control panel, the letter spacing and the letters one can see could say SINGLE instead of THREE.  The last letter is clearly an E but the one before it looks more like an L than an E. Trouble is the resolution just isn't enough to tell... frustrating.Thanks!Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:That machine is made by MIller.I see 230 and 460v on it.Best to call Miller with the serial number to confirm single or 3 phase.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:It is 3 phase and can be used with 50 or 60 hertz, so if you ship it to me in Africa, I will pay shipping and give you twice what you paid for it-------everything is 50 hertz over here.6 Miller Big Blue 600 Air Paks2 Miller 400D6 Lincoln LN-25's4 Miller Xtreme 12VS2 Miller Dimension 812 4 Climax BW-3000Z bore welders Hypertherm 65 and 85Bug-O Track BugPair of Welpers
Reply:Originally Posted by snoeproeThat machine is made by MIller.I see 230 and 460v on it.Best to call Miller with the serial number to confirm single or 3 phase.
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick VYes, the 230 and 460 is clear.. . .This is a critical point for me... SINGLE or THREE   PHASE. . .
Reply:Ha ha... No Way I am getting into shipping some 300+ lb Monster to Ghana!Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:contact http://www.dbschenker.com they specialize in international shipping and can do door to door international shipments you should look into it just call them for a quote and have the man wire you the money
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick VHa ha... No Way I am getting into shipping some 300+ lb Monster to Ghana!
Reply:I don't know about anyone else but that appears to be "REE" of THREE PHASE right below FREQUENCY and agree with denrep on his amp draw assesment. Attached ImagesMM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55I don't know about anyone else but that appears to be "REE" of THREE PHASE right below FREQUENCY and agree with denrep on his amp draw assesment.
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepIt's three-phase, per the low amp draw....
Reply:Each of the threee phases are 120 degrees from each other. This keeps the incoming AC wave more consistent, thus increasing the efficiency of delivered power. IOW, it ups the average voltage/current to the primary of the transformer.PapaLincoln Idealarc 250 (circa 1962)Lincoln Weldpak 155 w/Mig KitLincoln Squarewave TIG 175
Reply:All right... all the indicators here seem to point to THREE PHASE!However, as I said in the initial post, the seller said his shop was wired for 230 volts single phase only - "definetly no 3-phase".So... we wait... the seller said he is going to check with the electrician that wired the shop.Thanks for all the help!Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:No doubt it's three-phase and the math supports that.First off, a single transformer winding can only be connected single-phase, despite being part of a three-phase system. Thus, there is no gain in transformer efficiency with three-phase over single-phase. So let's skip that. The perceived "problem" here is an error in calculations and not some gain in efficiency.Here, let's look at the math again.  Originally Posted by Rick VAgain it's hard to see on that Label.To me it looks like it reads - perhaps at best guess...PRIMARYVOLTS....................230/460/?75AMPS........................78/39/2?K.W.............................24.6Going with what I can see clearly, then one input is 460 volts @ 39 amps; that's 460 x 39 = 17.94 Kw. . . input numbers seem to match but... the K.W. label looks like 24.6 - rather higher. . . .. . .Does that work for this welder? Something is not working right here...
Reply:Looks good Denrep... (darn!) but where did you get the power factor = 0.8?Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick VLooks good Denrep... (darn!) but where did you get the power factor = 0.8?
Reply:Observant... but 31 ÷ 25 = 1.24, maybe you meant 25 ÷ 31 = 0.8 ?Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-AcetRight, I goofed.I've edited my post to correct that.Thanks
Reply:OK denrep, solid now!  Thanks! Yep, looks 99% like she's a 3-phase unit...  no matter what the seller may recall or what the electrician remembers... heck it looks like he used a 30 amp 600 volt receptacle to supply either 39 amps at 460 volts, or 78 amps at 230 volts.  Likely got away with it because no one was welding with a 3/8 inch diameter electrode pulling 375 amps! What a Sherlock Homes epic... thanks to all who contributed!Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Seller just sent me an email this morning... "I talked to the electrician and indeed we have 600 v 3 phase in the building so you are probably right about the plug and the unit is 3 phases."RATS!  WELL, THAT'S THAT ! Well that`s the way the cookie crumbles. What a Ride... thanks to those who assisted me, much appreciated!Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet