Walking the cup.

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Why do people teach and preach on walking the cup. I know kids now days who go to these 12,000 dollar welding schools and all they teach them to do is walk the cup. Do the people teaching this even know what this technique was designed for. That would be J bevels by the way. I see the need for it in some applications, $but I can count on one hand how many times I have ever found a need for or used this technique. Free handing to me is just the way to go carry more metal and develop more skill. I could teach my 6 year old how to walk the cup in a day, but where is the craftsmanship in our trade anymore? I just think it is the wrong way to go about doing something. I guess I just feel this is a misguided technique you teach someone how tig that way and then they make a mess of everything when they get in a position to where they can not WTC. I feel it is not the way to be taught or go about learning to tig. Pick up a oxy fuel torch and learn that way then carry that to tig. WTC is just not dummy proof enough to me.
Reply:Reminds me of todays tractor trailer drivers ...In school they teach them on automatic transmissions and tell them the safest place to be is in the middle lane...Oh,And follow your GPS... Right under the low bridge. New Breed.Miller 211Hypertherm PM 451961 Lincoln Idealarc 250HTP 221  True Wisdom only comes from Pain.
Reply:Depends on what they are going to school for. If they want to weld lots of pipe then wtc is a good thing to know. Some people seem to think its the only way to tig though. I free hand most of the time but also like to wtc sometimes, I think you should be able to do both.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:I know several P1 (high pressure pipe) Navy Nuclear Tig welders. They all say they are not allowed to touch the cup to the base metal.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:I know that for me it's easier to freehand than walk the cup. Tried it on some 3" pipe for practice and it came out terrible (even worse than my other attempts at pipe). For some reason I just cant get the hang of it. I do agree that it is a good skill to have but it should not be relied on all the time.TOO MANY TOOLS & NO MORE SPACE
Reply:"Do the people teaching this even know what this technique was designed for. That would be J bevels by the way. "Don't forget the more common vee grooves, fillet welds, or any weld where you have dissimilar heights. So what is wrong with learning it? It is certainly a good starting point, and all the TIG that many trades will ever need.
Reply:Any good tig welder can do both and knows when to do each. I've built and welded superheater steam loops for the USS Kittyhawk(Navy) and they were 1 1/4" if I remember correctly so you can forget cup walking on small stuff like that. Walking the cup is more prevalent on say 4" or bigger tube/pipe. If your good you can and will be able to do either and know when to do what's best for your situation.
Reply:I'll give you my $0.02 on walking the cup for free.  Schools teach walking the cup for pipe welding because it makes young, inexperienced welders able to weld at least some pipe with less training time, and with fewer defects/discontinuities/etc.  Look at it across the entire welding industry, not just the job in front of your face.Walk onto any large mechanical piping job(not boiler work) or spool fabrication shop, and you'll find that most of the welds are in places that are suitable for walking the cup.  Is it faster than free hand TIG welding?  No, not usually.  But I'll bet you a nickel that a slower weld made by walking the cup is less likely to have a defect, when made by a less experienced welder.  What's faster then?  Doing it right, slowly, the first time?  OR cutting out a bad weld and having to splice in a pup with two welds to fix it?And let's not even talk about time lost by the bad weld that causes a piping job to go from 10% NDT random inspection, to 100% NDT.The smart foreman takes his apprentices that can walk the cup reliably, and sets them to work on the easier welds.  The more experienced guys with a broader, deeper skillset, get the "fun jobs".  When all the harder work is done, they can go back and help the younger guys either by working with them or stepping up to the line and cranking out the rest of the easier welds.  No, you can't use it everywhere, and no walking the cup isn't suitable for all jobs.  But if 90% of pipe welding is on mild steel, and 90% of those welds are easy to access in the field or shop welded, why not use it and put young, less experienced(and less expensive) guys to work doing it?  Let's not run down cup walking just because it's slower.  IF slower = better quality, and you're all about craftsmanship and taking pride in the work, then what's the problem?You can free hand TIG weld.  Great!  You like to use it for everything.  Great!  Good for you.  Now find some young welder just starting out, with good attitude, and teach them what you know.  Rather than beat down on your fellow man, how about giving a hand up to a hard working welder, just starting out; and make them into a partner you can rely on to share some of the 'fun jobs'.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:My guess is that they teach walking the cup because today almost everyone wants instant gratification. Students expect to be able to pick up a torch and be able to make nice welds with little to no experience. In many ways that's true with walking the cup.I teach students to run freehand with tig. It takes longer, but I feel they learn better and have a better understanding of whats going on. Walking the cup can become a crutch rather than a tool in their arsenal if they learn it too early..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by A_DAB_will_doI'll give you my $0.02 on walking the cup for free.  Schools teach walking the cup for pipe welding because it makes young, inexperienced welders able to weld at least some pipe with less training time, and with fewer defects/discontinuities/etc.  Look at it across the entire welding industry, not just the job in front of your face.Walk onto any large mechanical piping job(not boiler work) or spool fabrication shop, and you'll find that most of the welds are in places that are suitable for walking the cup.  Is it faster than free hand TIG welding?  No, not usually.  But I'll bet you a nickel that a slower weld made by walking the cup is less likely to have a defect, when made by a less experienced welder.  What's faster then?  Doing it right, slowly, the first time?  OR cutting out a bad weld and having to splice in a pup with two welds to fix it?And let's not even talk about time lost by the bad weld that causes a piping job to go from 10% NDT random inspection, to 100% NDT.The smart foreman takes his apprentices that can walk the cup reliably, and sets them to work on the easier welds.  The more experienced guys with a broader, deeper skillset, get the "fun jobs".  When all the harder work is done, they can go back and help the younger guys either by working with them or stepping up to the line and cranking out the rest of the easier welds.  No, you can't use it everywhere, and no walking the cup isn't suitable for all jobs.  But if 90% of pipe welding is on mild steel, and 90% of those welds are easy to access in the field or shop welded, why not use it and put young, less experienced(and less expensive) guys to work doing it?  Let's not run down cup walking just because it's slower.  IF slower = better quality, and you're all about craftsmanship and taking pride in the work, then what's the problem?You can free hand TIG weld.  Great!  You like to use it for everything.  Great!  Good for you.  Now find some young welder just starting out, with good attitude, and teach them what you know.  Rather than beat down on your fellow man, how about giving a hand up to a hard working welder, just starting out; and make them into a partner you can rely on to share some of the 'fun jobs'.
Reply:I'll respectfully disagree that walking the cup is slower. On large pipe in my experience it is much much faster with less fatigue involved.
Reply:when i was in school it was all freehand.  havent did much tig since but my teacher always told me "no company is going to want scratch marks going down the side of the weld on there aluminum or stainless product"
Reply:If your scratching the pipe your doing it wrong.  Dab,   you hit it out of the park.  Brothers helping brothers Sent from my DROID RAZR using TapatalkLong after the price is forgotten, the quality will remain.Both of my Poppy's 1954 Short Hoods -Third generation to weld with it and teaching a fourthSA 2## - Bought and sold more than I can remember or care to list, 8 in the shop right now
Reply:>>>>>where's the delete buttonLast edited by TimmyTIG; 01-29-2014 at 07:11 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Showdog75I'll respectfully disagree that walking the cup is slower. On large pipe in my experience it is much much faster with less fatigue involved.
Reply:All personal preference  Miller or Lincoln,  Ford or Chevy(never Dodge) Bud or Coors, white or wheat,  spicy or yellow,  bacon or sausage aaawww man,  now I'm hungry Sent from my DROID RAZR using TapatalkLong after the price is forgotten, the quality will remain.Both of my Poppy's 1954 Short Hoods -Third generation to weld with it and teaching a fourthSA 2## - Bought and sold more than I can remember or care to list, 8 in the shop right now
Reply:Originally Posted by TimmyTIGNot only that, but it's way easier to put a nice, uniform cap on. Just because somebody doesn't have room to do it welding boiler tubes doesn't mean there's not a use for it. I walk the cup all the time in the pipe fabrication shop, but I can also free hand when I need to.
Reply:Originally Posted by Showdog75You get it Timmy. Obvious you actually tig not just talk about it on a welding forum.  It's what I do everyday but what do I know.
Reply:Originally Posted by A_DAB_will_do....Rather than beat down on your fellow man, how about giving a hand up to a hard working welder, just starting out; and make them into a partner you can rely on to share some of the 'fun jobs'.
Reply:Electrodes aren't cheap.When you walk the cup you will have much less stickout.  Having less stickout = less electrode sharpening for the newbies = less cost.Buy American, or don't whine when you end up on the bread line.
Reply:I'm thinking it would be a real pain in the butt to free-hand something like this:
Reply:Looks nice Timmy. I'll bet a ben franklin no one can begin to keep up free handing something like this.
Reply:Originally Posted by Showdog75Looks nice Timmy. I'll bet a ben franklin no one can begin to keep up free handing something like this.
Reply:looks great timmy, in my opinon walking the cup does have its place in the industry for sure, lays a great aesthetically pleasing bead, and frankly youd be hard pressed to do the same freehand. Since day 1 ive been taught by old school freehand (amazing) boiler welders to of course freehand as almost every situation iam in almost makes walking the cup impossible. HOWEVER iam not afraid to admit that I have never had the privledge to learn to walk the cup I guess I could teach myself but im fairly set in my ways. In my particular situation one hell of a great place to implement walking the cup would be on some of our heavy wall joints that are wrapped at 400* !!! red knuckles aren't fun
Reply:Heck Timmy TIg that is what it is all about eh?  Good looking work!  I like the saddle pad, on the branch it I am sure you could have done better. No offense, because it is a good looking weld, but with that talent I would expect it be on the branch connection too.   Heck I would not beat it right now that is for sure!  One thing about walking  it , you can deposit more metal quickly on a large/wide/deep joint.....otherwise you are stacking passes and that always takes more time."Pick up a oxy fuel torch and learn that way then carry that to tig."    I really like that statement because it is brass tacks about what tig really is.....oxy fuel welding and brazing with electricity.   I freehand, drag and walk the cup according to what I got in front of me, I really do not think there is any De-riguer method about how you manipulate your torch....you just do what gets the best result on that joint.   I think cup walking probably started from long reaches around large pipe...that is when I tend to pull it out of the hat.  Take your typical guy welding tubes on a header or waterfall....he is not walking crap, just fighting for angle and paying attention to a mirror.  It is just a usefull technique for certain situations, thick large diameter pipe is what comes to mind for me.  I got a very young son that watched me brazing old iron castings together...he wanted to give it a go so I let him. Well dang he had a better feel then I did about laying that bronze so I gave him a tig torch on DC....while he is a natural at stick, he struggled with that foot pedal, torch and rod.  Yet he fell naturally into flame welding/brazing rather quick like...so I tend to think those disciplines will make him become a much better tig welder in the long run.   Course with Aluminum for most folks it seems we start over, whole different kind of puddle I reckon.  LOL  I got interest in how people learn tig, I use to have to coach prospects in ATTEMPTING to cert for D.17.1 on ridiculously thin coupons, even with died in the wool hands it usually come down to fine change in some technique or with aluminum mostly a speed issue.   anyway for all my blathering......walking the cup is just a technique that may or may not have its uses depending on how you like to weld and what you do.   nice topic lets see some more postsTommyLast edited by tommyjoking; 01-30-2014 at 10:41 PM.yeah, I didn't get to cap the branch, I just had it flushed out when I took that pic, then I got pulled off it. Day shift welder got to finish it out for me.
Reply:I have never ever walked the cup.
Reply:Wow, that's the first thing that comes to me Wow, I have been welding, teaching, Inspecting, for 35 years and still amaze me on things I read and see, There is a Technique for everyone, and it's up to that welder to apply the best technique for the process or weld joint being performed, Don't hate the Walkers, Open you eyes to all techniques, Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by Showdog75I'll respectfully disagree that walking the cup is slower. On large pipe in my experience it is much much faster with less fatigue involved.
Reply:When I went through school, my instructor didn't teach WTC. He had worked in the industry where they didn't want the marks from the cup left on the material. And there are many welds where you can't walk the cup. We did everything freehand. I tig at work, and at home-I am still not any good at walking! Guess I need some practice! Lol.
Reply:when allowed, I find walking to be incredibly usefull on the stand. I can squat, start at the bottom, and stand to finish the top without stopping/ dipping. when I go to install, I find it is usually impossible to walk due to other obstructions, so I freehand. gotta do what works best for the sitiationbosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:Im not putting anyone down for doing it unless I have to pick up their repair, and yes it may have its places in the industry. What I was getting at is these kids fresh out of HS go to some 12,000 dollar welding school and that's the only way they know how to Tig when they get out. Like DSW said it is a crutch more than a tool. It should be learned later for the field it is desired in. Freehand should always come first. And yes it was developed by the Scandinavians in the early 70's for walking around deep J bevels. Congrats timmy tig you can was a torch around a perfectly fit tangential. Lets see it done with coated rod then show me a picture we don't have time for that fancy stuff where I come from. So before you go running your mouths about a fellow tradesmen come to my neck of the woods and see what we think welding is all about. I wasn't putting anybody down for their technique, I was just questioning the methods and the order they are being taught in. Thank You and Good Day
Reply:What's this coated wire you mentioned? We don't use that where I work. Just curious, what are you welding on?
Reply:Originally Posted by TimmyTIGWhat's this coated wire you mentioned? We don't use that where I work. Just curious, what are you welding on?
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonFlux coated SS rods. Most notably used on keyhole tig root.
Reply:You must not of been around to long if you haven't heard stick rod referred to as coated rod. I work in a boiler shop in STL been around longer than this forum where you obviously don't come to share information or be open minded to a question or idea. Now I know why I always got my questions answered else where. If you get offended by me questioning walking the cup then you definitely wouldn't be able to work where I do or weld what I weld on any ways.
Reply:Not to mention if your on your phone enough to take pictures of what you weld at work you would of been ****ed off down the road sometime ago by my foreman. So come on up and get you a job ill buddy up with you. lol
Reply:Originally Posted by edwelds99You must not of been around to long if you haven't heard stick rod referred to as coated rod. I work in a boiler shop in STL been around longer than this forum where you obviously don't come to share information or be open minded to a question or idea. Now I know why I always got my questions answered else where. If you get offended by me questioning walking the cup then you definitely wouldn't be able to work where I do or weld what I weld on any ways.
Reply:Originally Posted by edwelds99Not to mention if your on your phone enough to take pictures of what you weld at work you would of been ****ed off down the road sometime ago by my foreman. So come on up and get you a job ill buddy up with you. lol
Reply:Ok that's fine sir I think it is you who are a worm I've been trained by two 40 plus year boilermakers. One of which has owned and operated his own pipeline company before you were even a helper im sure and if you question what I say or what I can do don't worry ill make it out of the shop one day and you never know maybe ill be your replacement. But for now I don't have time to sit here and bicker with you and your little buddy's I have work to do my self and have more to do tomorrow obviously I don't need to sit on here and suck up your one track minded information. Thanks and the offer I made before is always on the table.
Reply:20 posts, and he's talking down to a respected member like TimmyTig. Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:If I start typing Jerry,Jerry,Jerry would that be appropriate?  This is starting to sound like something like stringers vs weaves with 7018 but anyway onwards with the argument.Lincoln pro core 125 14''chop saw7 inch grinder,2-4.5 inch grinders,electric die grinder.Half inch drillAnd alot of hand tools
Reply:Originally Posted by edwelds99Im not putting anyone down for doing it unless I have to pick up their repair, and yes it may have its places in the industry. What I was getting at is these kids fresh out of HS go to some 12,000 dollar welding school and that's the only way they know how to Tig when they get out. Like DSW said it is a crutch more than a tool. It should be learned later for the field it is desired in. Freehand should always come first. And yes it was developed by the Scandinavians in the early 70's for walking around deep J bevels. Congrats timmy tig you can was a torch around a perfectly fit tangential. Lets see it done with coated rod then show me a picture we don't have time for that fancy stuff where I come from. So before you go running your mouths about a fellow tradesmen come to my neck of the woods and see what we think welding is all about. I wasn't putting anybody down for their technique, I was just questioning the methods and the order they are being taught in. Thank You and Good Day
Reply:Originally Posted by edwelds99 and if you question what I say or what I can do don't worry ill make it out of the shop one day and you never know maybe ill be your replacement.
Reply:Egos is everything and that's mostly what you get when you ask a welder a question. You don't get a knowledgeable answer most of the time you have to read between their ego and their opinion. I will not argue that opinion and personal preference is everything in welding. All I was questioning was the teaching methods of new age GTAW welding. I figured that I have read post and opinions on the forum long enough and been doing what I do long enough that this would be a great place to question that kind of thing. Well I have learned now that it is not because there are to many people out there that will get their feathers ruffled just because of questioning something, that may question their own skill and ability. This most definitely is not helped when a young buck is the one questioning these things. So now thank you for giving me the knowledge to know not to listen to every welder on the net that thinks they are the bees knees. I will say that if this is the kind of response you get for questioning something here maybe those guys everyone knocks on over at the AWS forum know a bit more than all of us. No one knows all the answers and no one ever will so opinion and questions are all we have sorry maybe my question was miss worded and offended people who are not quite as confident in themselves as I am. Because that is one of the main traits to have as a welder is confidence right? Or is that not a proper question to ask on here?
Reply:edwelds99 - I've read, and been part of, many very good discussions on wide ranging welding topics on this site.As I see it, you are trying to prod people into arguing with you.  If that is not your intent, then your communication style needs work.  Leave out the slamming of confidence, slamming the website, slamming other welders in general and you will have more productive conversations.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by TimmyTIGwhy would I want to use that on a re-pad?
Reply:OK now everyone TAKE A BREAK.OR ELSE....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Timmy TIG     AHA  that explains it!   Again that is real good looking work, lots of guys can do it but it takes talent to lay it in like that.  If you ever want to go into aerospace work I think you will have zero problems.
Reply:Originally Posted by TimmyTIGI'm thinking it would be a real pain in the butt to free-hand something like this:Attachment 603451