Planning a new railing

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Hello all,I've demolished the ugly concrete porch on our house and am planning on replacing it with a 6'x9' brick porch with 4 brick steps leading up to it.  We're planning on fabricating a railing on each side from components from King.It's going to be a few months before I start the iron work but I'd like to ask some questions as I plan. As a result of my first post, I'm going to use O/A for this (instead of buying a MIG) as I already have the equipment and am somewhat capable of decent looking beads with it.We're looking at the 1-3/4" or 2-1/4" molded forged hand rail with a lamb's tongue at the bottom and a scroll lateral at the top.  Not sure of the style of balusters. My wife is tending toward very fancy scrolls and I like it more plain.  Don't want it to look overdone...The questions:1. When attaching the lamb's tongue and laterals to the molded cap piece, do you simply weld it from top and bottom and then grind the profile back on top?  If so, what attachment do you use on the angle grinder for this?2. Would it be a good strategy to tack all of the balusters first before welding them on all 4 sides?  Should I alternate sides when tacking them to minimize the bowing of the top and bottom channels?3. In looking through the forum, I think I like mounting them with plates covered by the cover shoes from King. I'd use SS studs in the concrete with SS nuts. Any problems with this?4. Is there anything else I should be asking?TIA for your help on this my first, very visible welding project.-- Bob
Reply:I would attach the "Lambs tongues" with set screws from the bottom like they used to do.Many older iron railings were assembled entirely with set screws.Weld the rest. But those 'Lambs tongues" will get a lot of attention, so I would hide the attachments.One other way is to cut a notches out of the top railing and weld the "Lambs tongues" from the bottom and sand flat.OR use a plug weld from the bottom and weld before assembly of the railing.Last edited by Donald Branscom; 06-03-2011 at 02:46 PM.AWS certified welding inspectorAWS certified welder
Reply:Make your own lambs tongue.  I did a thread years ago, do a search.  Simple no special tools needed. Though, the 2-1/4" will be a beast to bend without heat.  Your custom lambs tongue will match and could be made without splicing. Are the lambs tongues and laterals cast.  I would braze them, if they are cast.  If you purchase punched channel, then you can weld balusters from the bottom and only need minimal welding and reduced chance of distortion. I wouldn't suggest welding all the way around the baluster only because of the amount of heat input.  Brazing would work for balusters too,  especially good if your baluster extend through the channel.   stainless is overkill especially since you are going to cover them.Make sure you have space for your cover to be lifted for welding post to plate.How are you going to build the rail - on a table or in air.   o/a is going to heat everything. If on a table, then you might not be able to touch the table to work or warp it. Spend much time on creating a strong fixture.  make sure you can access maximum places to weld without unclamping.  Good luckLast edited by tapwelder; 06-03-2011 at 04:06 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomI would attach the "Lambs tongues" with set screws from the bottom like they used to do.Many older iron railings were assembled entirely with set screws.Weld the rest. But those 'Lambs tongues" will get a lot of attention, so I would hide the attachments.One other way is to cut a notches out of the top railing and weld the "Lambs tongues" from the bottom and sand flat.OR use a plug weld from the bottom and weld before assembly of the railing.
Reply:Tapwelder, the tongues and laterals are either forged or malleable but not cast.Brazing is an interesting idea. I'm assuming you mean only for the balusters right? The channels to the uprights should be welded?Yes, stainless may be overkill but it can't cost me more than $10 extra. Sure is nice when you have to take it apart after 10 years.I don't have a table large enough for this so I'll have to weld it in the air.
Reply:Well, the concrete steps and porch pad are in. Next is the brickwork but I'm trying to plan the railing mounting before the bricks are laid.As I mentioned above, I'm planning on a scroll lateral at the top of the railing for appearance and for stability.  It's a straight run up 5 steps to a newel on the porch.  I've been studying the King catalog and I can't figure out how to build the lateral end.  I'm assuming the newel butts under the center of the scroll but what about the bottom?  Does the bottom channel get a channel lateral?  How does the newel fasten to it?  Does the newel only mount to the deck or are there several drops from the lateral channel to the concrete?Is there a resource to learn about how the various railing components are used in a design?Thanks,Bob
Reply:I have never purchased the malleable laterals.  I usually get the cast laterals, since I haven't had a reason to bend them.  I have never noticed them providing any additional stability. only putting the newel under the terminal end of the latter is like attaching it to a spring.  I typically intersect between the end of the straight rail and the lateral. I have ran the newel from the lateral terminal end, then line up a stub to the ground, however it is time consuming and everything has to line up including the balusters.  Personally, I prefer to build the lateral separately in some temporary alignment fixture, then add it to the rail.  If the lateral is built correctly, then I only have to line the entire unit up with the rail.  King has/had Idea catalogs.  Along the lines of Donald's suggestions,  pinning and brazing was a popular method of assembling stuff.  Drill holes through the cap and channel place a steel pin(nail), then braze it into place channel and cap,  grind flush.  Similarly,  do balusters into channel.  I used to braze Cap joints.  It was nice because it easy to get the perfect matching cleanup with minimal tools. Time consuming however and not profitable.
Reply:So if I'm thinking about this correctly, the newel runs from the center of the upper lateral into a mount on the deck and balusters run from the upper lateral down to the lower channel lateral.  Why is there a center terminal end on the lower lateral channel?  It just blocks the newel from going down to the slab.When pinning the cap to the upper channel with nails, the brass wicks into the joint, allowing you to grind flush and not destroy the bond, right?  Do you drill right in the center of the cap or off in the flatter area?What's the advantage of using cast over malleable?Thanks,BobLast edited by bobbyt; 08-08-2011 at 07:16 AM.
Reply:The lower end does block the newel. You can simply add a stub underneath.   This is one reason I prefer to placed it at the end of the straight rail and weld the lateral to the post.  Also, sometimes placing it on the terminal end causes it to run off the walkway.They just make mirrors, we use it as top or bottom.  You could modify the laterals as you desire.  I prefer cast for price.  I haven't run into a situation where I need to bend a lateral. I just adjust the cap off the straight section.  Something to consider,  your straight section needs to run down to the ground level ( hence consider it like 6 steps rather than 5). If you place it on the last step, then the lateral assembly will be a riser high and seem large, high and awkward.  The brazing is just a way to minimize the heat.  I would clamp cap to channel, then drill, set pin, braze, grind. My first instinct was to drill from top to bottom through cap and channel, though through the side would work and probably be a better way to go.  It will clean up easily and unnoticeable either way.   Good luck with your project.
Reply:Originally Posted by tapwelderThe lower end does block the newel. You can simply add a stub underneath.   This is one reason I prefer to placed it at the end of the straight rail and weld the lateral to the post.
Reply:I would just weld the lamb's tongue to the rail and grind it then sand it. That is the slickest way and looks like it is all one piece.You should tack all pickets before welding. One side is good, it shouldn't move as it's only a tack.I use Tap-Con screws to mount all my railings. I have removed them that I installed 7 or 8 years ago with out any problem.Here a couple pictures of some simple railings to show you the lambs tongue. Attached Images
Reply:Beautiful work, Bob.  I plan to do the lamb's tongues as you suggest.  Do you weld or braze your railings?  I'm leaning towards brazing since I'll be using O/A and want to minimize the heat.It doesn't look like the mounting covers would allow enough room to fasten the railing to the deck, but I guess they do.Thanks for the pics,Bob
Reply:Originally Posted by bobbytHello all,I've demolished the ugly concrete porch on our house and am planning on replacing it with a 6'x9' brick porch with 4 brick steps leading up to it.  We're planning on fabricating a railing on each side from components from King.It's going to be a few months before I start the iron work but I'd like to ask some questions as I plan. As a result of my first post, I'm going to use O/A for this (instead of buying a MIG) as I already have the equipment and am somewhat capable of decent looking beads with it.We're looking at the 1-3/4" or 2-1/4" molded forged hand rail with a lamb's tongue at the bottom and a scroll lateral at the top.  Not sure of the style of balusters. My wife is tending toward very fancy scrolls and I like it more plain.  Don't want it to look overdone...The questions:1. When attaching the lamb's tongue and laterals to the molded cap piece, do you simply weld it from top and bottom and then grind the profile back on top?  If so, what attachment do you use on the angle grinder for this?2. Would it be a good strategy to tack all of the balusters first before welding them on all 4 sides?  Should I alternate sides when tacking them to minimize the bowing of the top and bottom channels?3. In looking through the forum, I think I like mounting them with plates covered by the cover shoes from King. I'd use SS studs in the concrete with SS nuts. Any problems with this?4. Is there anything else I should be asking?TIA for your help on this my first, very visible welding project.-- Bob
Reply:Sorry, Bobby.  I cannot find a single photo of a rail with a lateral.  However, if you look at Bob's rail.  At the top of the step rail where it runs parallel to the ground (the easement), add your lateral after the top post.  The lateral forms the easement.  Top and bottom post will be in the same plane. The lateral will be hanging off the post.    Your run is short, I don't think you will get much flex if you decide to add the terminal end (nonwelded end) of the lateral.  However, attaching there will definitely not help stability, since will add twist-ability to the rail.You might consider core drilling your post.  Perhaps Bob direct you as to how he get the plate on and bolted with such small clearance. If I use shoes, I usually the weld post to plates after the plate are set.  Though, I use sleeve or wedge anchors, which require hammering.   I wouldn't think you will be torch welding that close to your new porch.Last edited by tapwelder; 08-10-2011 at 12:41 AM.
Reply:When I braze the whole assembly together, I'm braze welding with fillets, correct?  What type of rod (flux coated or separate flux) would you recommend?  If using the canned flux, is there a preferred type?Thanks,Bob
Reply:So I'm back with this project after a long delay for a variety of life interruptions.  (MOD: Should this have gone into a new thread for visibility?)I've completed the brick porch and garden walls. (It was a lot of fun. I was kind of sorry when it was finished.) Here's a pic:I've also picked up a Miller Auto-Set 180 and a bottle of 75/25.  The rail will go up the sloped wall on either side of the steps.  As I mentioned before, my LBI will allow me to stop the handrail in back of the brick piers so I thought I'd terminate with a lamb's tongue showing above the pier. I think I'd like the look of a lateral at the top but I question if the handrail would look too short if I don't extend it all the way back to the house.  Thoughts?I plan to use channel for both the bottom of the rail and at the top, under the cap.Also, before I get started ordering materials, I have a few questions:1) If I do go with the lateral, is the choice of cast iron vs. cast steel strictly one of cost or is there an advantage of CI to warrant having to braze that joint?2) Am I correct that I shouldn't use punched channel for the pitched stair section of rail since the 1/2" balusters won't fit the holes without elongating them?3) If I go back to the house, should I terminate with another lamb's tongue or run the railing into the siding with a mounting flange?4) I'll use solid stock since I live in eastern PA, unless someone talks me out of it.Any and all thoughts or comments welcome!Thanks,BobLast edited by bobbyt; 02-19-2014 at 01:18 PM.
Reply:You need to take it all the way to the house. I just don't think it will look right if you don't.You will have a hard time using a shoe on the post right behind the brick column. Shoes don't work well on sloped surfaces. You can grins the hole out so that it can make that much slant and you will probably have to cut your plate down or it will stick out past the shoe.You can attach the railing to the house easily if you use tubing top rail. Just use a smaller size tube with a piece of flat strap with a hole in it, that well slide into the top rail. This will give you a slight bit of adjustment.
Reply:You weld the lambs tongue on with your mig welder, bevel it first, then after welding you grind it and take a small worn out cut off wheel and true the details up, other option is to bend the lambs tongue on the cap as one piece. I have done more rails than most people have seen.
Reply:These are the only pictures I have showing the slip in attachment piece. You can build these or buy them from King. Attached Images
Reply:If you are doing it from scratch you could set u some 4x4 weld plates in your stone work to weld your post to, that way you dont see any bolts and it will never go anywhere.
Reply:Looks very nice. Probably better than I might have done with brick. I just don't lay enough brick/block to do it as well as I'd like. Though with that much brick, you got a lot of practice in by the end. One thing I notice is that I don't see any drain holes where you left out the mortar so the garden can drain in that wall. You may find you have issues after some freeze thaw cycles in the future. That may not be a huge issue if you back filled with stone for good drainage. One advantage I see is it looks like this is an older home. If that's so, chances are the sheathing is solid wood or at worst plywood, so attaching the rails to the walls shouldn't be too hard. Newer development homes, the "sheathing" is cardboard or foam board and there is nothing solid to run screws into many times..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Thanks DSW. I push a pencil all day so I don't lay much brick either.  It took me a while to get a rhythm going. Running around the inside perimeter of both walls is 4" perf PVC pipe surrounded by a drain sleeve and crushed stone. The pipe exits the wall inconspicuously on the side.Yes, the house was build in '28 and the sheathing is 1x12 yellow pine boards.
Reply:Originally Posted by BobYou need to take it all the way to the house. I just don't think it will look right if you don't.You will have a hard time using a shoe on the post right behind the brick column. Shoes don't work well on sloped surfaces. You can grins the hole out so that it can make that much slant and you will probably have to cut your plate down or it will stick out past the shoe.You can attach the railing to the house easily if you use tubing top rail. Just use a smaller size tube with a piece of flat strap with a hole in it, that well slide into the top rail. This will give you a slight bit of adjustment.
Reply:Originally Posted by BobYou need to take it all the way to the house. I just don't think it will look right if you don't.