Looking for my first TIG machine.

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I have had a hobart handler MIG for quite some time, and at 120v its pretty limited. I cant knock it though, as it has done what I asked of it. Now Im looking to step up to a TIG welder. Im a pure hobbist, so it wouldnt be ran all the time, nor would it be used hard. Id like to get something that can run 110/230 if possible. Reason for that is, I dont have access to a 230 in the garage just yet, and I plan on moving. So when the move is done,I'll have the 230 recp. installed. So what could I look out for that is usually found used? Any help is appreciated.
Reply:If you want a 110/230v unit, Millers Dynasty200 and the Maxstar 150 and Maxstar 200's are excellent machines that are hard to out grow for the average user. The Dynasty is an AC/DC machine and will do both Steel and alum. The Maxstars are DC machines and won't do alum, but are great for steel and stainless as well as other metals. They are expensive, but can be found used for reasonable money if you look.Millers Diversion is also a 110v/230v machine. It doesn't have as good an output rating as the others IIRC on 110v power and personally I think it's underpowered especially for alum ( it's pretty much pointless to try to do alum with one on 110v power unless it's super thin) and you give up too many options for what they want you to pay.I'd avoid any of the cheap imports. Too many guys have had issues with them and customer service is terrible if you do have issues.Understand that on 110v power you will be limited even with the top end inverters. There's simply not enough input to do usually more than say 1/8" material roughly. Better more expensive machines will usually be rated higher in output and duty cycle than cheap machines. Getting a cheap 110v tig that won't do anything but sheet metal might not be worth much and will simply sap your money from getting a better machine later.Going to a 230v only machine however will reduce you budget considerably. Several guys recently have picked up nice almost new Syncrowave 180's and 200's for less than half what they run new,as hobby guys and small shops divest themselves of expensive "toys" that just sit in this economy. I've seen them as low as $800-900 and usually range up to $1400 or so with additional accesories. Older industrial tigs are cheap also. They usually are huge older machines that are heavy and want a lot of power, ( keep this in mind when running the electric some will want 100+ amps 230v to run full out) but can be found for $400-700 used. Zaps Miller 330AB/P and similar machines would be good examples. You'll see several guys who have picked up similar machines cheap as "starter" tigs.You can often run a 230v unit off an extension cord plugged in to a dryer outlet as long as you keep the amps down and don't have one of the power hungry monsters. Even if you do, you can easily afford to have a line run if you save on the machine. Going the multi voltage route usually adds a fair amount to the cost of a machine over a strictly 230v unit..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Im assuming you are looking for DC only...There many options but I would say that you are going to be very limited by 120v you can only get about 90-95 amps out of it no matter what machine you use. The upside to 230v 165 - 200 amp small inverter machines is that they usually draw about 19-23 amps at full bore and less if you are welding similar material to your 120a MIG outfit and you can easily use a 100' or so 10 ga extension cord off of a 30a dryer outlet if you are close enough. Really leaves you room to do a lot of different material. A dual voltage machine would be ideal such as a Maxstar or even a180 Diversion (they only weigh around 50# and are ac/dc) but you can find many small inverter Dc machines for cheap. I prefer a High Frequent start and a thumb control but you can TIG quite efficiantly with a lift arc and no heat control once you get the hang of it.EDIT: sorry to recapture what D said above me, he must have posted while I was using this Kindle "keyboard"... but yea, what he said Sent from my Kindle Fire using TapatalkLast edited by CherryBrosRC; 02-05-2012 at 11:55 AM.Miller Maxstar 200 DX - Syncrowave 200 - MillerMatic 200 - Bobcat 225 NT - Spoolmate 3035/SGA 1003 X Lincoln Power MIGs (200, 215XT 255)3 X Lincoln SP's (100, 125, 130)Thermal Arc 181i (spool gun and TIG torch)HT Powermax 1000 G3
Reply:I love my Miller diversion 180 and it does both voltages. I think it's a great machine for a hobbistTorchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Thanks guys Im going to look into those. Ive seen the everlasts that seem to prove themselves. But being Im new to it, I really dont know what all Im looking at. But yeah maybe I will wait to get one and get a 230 only. If im going to use it under 230 anyway, why not wait. ya know?So new request.. cheap 230v TIG welders?Last edited by MrOneEyedBoh; 02-05-2012 at 01:51 PM.
Reply:thermal arc 181i, 210i or 252i mig/dc-tig/stick/spoolguntackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:Originally Posted by MrOneEyedBohSo new request.. cheap 230v TIG welders?
Reply:I have been using Longevity machines for a few months now and have no complaints. IMHO they work better than those red or blue ones and cost about 1/3 to 1/2 less.  You can even "make them an offer" on their website. My 2 cents worth....From the desk of Kevin CaronTrying to be the best me I can!www.kevincaron.comAHP Alpha Tig 200x MillerMatic 251Miller Syncrowave 200
Reply:Originally Posted by kevinacaronI have been using Longevity machines for a few months now and have no complaints. IMHO they work better than those red or blue ones and cost about 1/3 to 1/2 less.  You can even "make them an offer" on their website. My 2 cents worth....
Reply:Thanks fellas!
Reply:Originally Posted by kevinacaronI have been using Longevity machines for a few months now and have no complaints. IMHO they work better than those red or blue ones and cost about 1/3 to 1/2 less.  You can even "make them an offer" on their website. My 2 cents worth....
Reply:Originally Posted by MrOneEyedBohThanks guys Im going to look into those. Ive seen the everlasts that seem to prove themselves. But being Im new to it, I really dont know what all Im looking at. But yeah maybe I will wait to get one and get a 230 only. If im going to use it under 230 anyway, why not wait. ya know?So new request.. cheap 230v TIG welders?
Reply:Not all the machines talked about above will run 110 (when we say 110, we mean 110 ~130 single phase) and 220 (220 - 250V again, single phase).I believe the thermal arcs are all 220 machines.You will have a tough time finding the input power versatility of the Miller machines.  The Dynasty and Maxstar 200s will run on 110V, 220V and 3 phase as well.  The Dynasty adds AC which is needed for aluminum.  They also add $1000.  Miller is not cheap, if your are lucky you will consider them reasonable.  The best news is if you buy at a good price used you can often sell at that price when you want to step up.  Call it an investment.The Dynasty and Maxstar do stick welding.  The Diversions do not.  The Diversions tend to be ready to run - but you can't easily change the torches.For me, minimum requirement for a TIG is1) High Frequency start - sometimes just called HF or pulse start.2) The capability to add a pedal that controls the start and controls the power.3) On A/C machines only: balance controlnice to have:3) A machine that allows adjustment of pre and post flow gas - which means internal gas solenoid.4) A machine that goes full range at one power setting.  Meaning no high, medium, low power switch.  So I set it to 200Amps, and I can feather the power with the pedal to 5 amps or whatever.  5) Frequency control for AC only.6) Process control.  For out of position welds, hit a button and the arc slowly comes up, hit it again, it slowly tapers off.  Sometimes they call it 2T or 4T modes.Toys to distract you (you don't need, perhaps don't even want):5) Pulse.A used Maxstar is typically $1000+ on Ebay.  I found a beat up one on Craig's list for significantly less but put over $100 in cleaning it up.  Dynasties are $2000+ on ebay.  Later models with "blue lightning" are easily $2500.  New they are over $3000.Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Originally Posted by scudzukiCan you elaborate on your opinon that "they work better than those red or blue ones"? That's a bold (and broad) statement.Joe
Reply:It's unfair to compare an inexpensive inverter machine to Syncro based solely on the greater process control of an inverter machine.Compare your Longevity to a Dynasty for that.Question is, will you Longevity live up to its name?Will it still run in 5 or 10 years?If it breaks, will you be able to get it fixed?What's it worth if you choose to sell it to go bigger/newer?JoeMiller Syncrowave 200Mac/Miller MW130 MIGKalamazoo bandsawCincinnati Arrow 500 VMCColchester Dominion 15 x 36 lathe with 2 axis DRO
Reply:Here we go again ! Attached ImagesLongevity 160sx Lincoln 140 miglincoln magnum spoolgunVictor torch and regulators
Reply:Originally Posted by scudzukiIt's unfair to compare an inexpensive inverter machine to Syncro based solely on the greater process control of an inverter machine.Compare your Longevity to a Dynasty for that.Question is, will you Longevity live up to its name?Will it still run in 5 or 10 years?If it breaks, will you be able to get it fixed?What's it worth if you choose to sell it to go bigger/newer?Joe
Reply:Originally Posted by kevinacaronIf anyone wants to continue this discussion please send me a private email.
Reply:Can we try and stay on topic fellas? So far good stuff here, lets get a few more options. Remember, you guuys can quote me on some older TIGs too. used is better for me
Reply:You might want to check into HTP as well they offer an inverter tig that does 110/220. And their customer services is great.   Their web page is usaweld.com iirc or weldusa.comHobart Handler 187, Craftsman drill press,Smith torch setup,Htp invertig221,Milwakee portaband saw w/Swagoffroad V3.0 table kit
Reply:They are running 2500. I could get a used miller for a bit lower than that. But thanks though.
Reply:hi, I think 220 is the way to go. I have a MILLER 180SD syncro that I  got for $800.00 a couple of years ago with leads for stick and tig. It's a basic machine; turn on and go. Does not have all those bells and whistles which for what you are doing I think it would be fine.It all depends on money. You could always go for the MILLER 150STL too, you get stick too !!
Reply:Originally Posted by kevinacaronWhat will it be worth...   No doubt less than the other two. It cost less to start so why should it be worth more.
Reply:Here is my opinion. Many will disagree. Buy a transformer based welder. If you are a hobbyist and your welder may do more sitting than being used. It will still be working many many years down the road. Inverters are fine but, I know I can fix any transformer/rectifier based welder usually easily and inexpensively. I cannot say the same for an inverter.  FYI I have had well over 100 Welders come through my shop in the last year and about 60 Tig machines. This is what I base my opinion on. GreggHammerFile Big Hammer------------------------------Here, let me Google that for you...
Reply:Kevinacaron,I wasn't even going to comment about your "recommendations" til you made the statement, "I would hope I can get it repaired, it's backed by a US company just like Miller and Lincoln".That statement right there told me that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.Comparing two US manufacturing giants to a couple of guys selling imported Chinese welders out of a warehouse is ridiculous.You're relatively new to the boards so you may not have seen all the CRAP that has gone on on these boards over the last several years.  The inflated advertising claims, the DOA machines, the shipping issues, the infighting between Nolongivity and Neverlast, the deleted negative postings, the paid positive posts from planted posters, etc, etc.Miller and Lincoln (as well as several other reputable manufacturers) all design their machines in house, manufacture them using parts from all over the world (but parts are built to their specifications), have quality control procedures in place, and have a parts and service organization to stand behind what they sell.The importers, on the other hand, design nothing (show me an electrical engineer/welding engineer on their staffs).  They go to a Chinese manufacturer and buy a lot of the cheapest welders they can produce that have the most "bells and whistles".This is not to say that the Chinese are not capable of building "quality" welding machines.  They are.  The problem is if they built quality machines with component specs comparable to the US machines, they would cost as much as those US machines.If you wish to be a "mouthpiece" for Chinese crap, please do it on their paid forums.  To make stupid statements like "they're just like US manufacturers" just shows you haven't done your homework.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.Inverters are basically specialized power amplifiers. I have seen demonstrations of high end audio amplifiers welding, amps with hugely overbuilt output stages. I owned an older Threshold amp years ago that was rated at 250 WPC. Each channel had an output stage employing 24 discrete 150 watt JFETs (3.6 KW) on enormouse heatsinks and were limited only by the power supplies and protection circuitry. Driven by a 60 or 80 hertz sinewave at maximum gain I probably could have welded with it, although I never tried.As such an inverter type welding power source is pretty easy to build inexpensively, and can output pretty much any waveform the input stage can conjure up. There is also a lot more to go wrong with an inverter machine, as in a great deal more active circuitry. Better design, layout, components, and assembly result in a more robust piece of equipment. Chances are you are not getting the best of any of those for the budget prices you pay for budget equipment.After my negative first experience with a budget TIG welder (an Eastwood TIG 200) I read up on the Internet about the experiences of others with some of the better known imports like Everlast and Riland. Although there are some very happy users, there are a few who apparently got duds and were not satisfied with the customer support they were getting, so I said f### it and looked for a used Syncrowave (used Dynastys appear to be a nonexistent breed, which suggests that buyers tend to hold on to them).I don't regret my choice for a second.JoeMiller Syncrowave 200Mac/Miller MW130 MIGKalamazoo bandsawCincinnati Arrow 500 VMCColchester Dominion 15 x 36 lathe with 2 axis DRO
Reply:Its a significantly more complex tool than say a hammer and requires a lot more time design, testing and supporting than the imports have done.  That stuff isn't free, but the benefits are huge.As a first TIG welder I would highly recommend you not buy a new Chinese one.  A quick glance at one of their web pages and I don't even see 110V TIG welders.  Besides there are just too many stories of the welder seemingly working OK, only later to find the gas valve was stuck or some other, little issue.  The guys in the paid forum will personally do a lot to help you out, but how do you, a beginner, know when it is the welder or the weldor that's at fault?A used Miller/Lincoln/Hobart/Esab means you've seen it in action at someone else's shop or home.  That gives you a pretty good idea on what it should be doing.  I have yet to me a professional or even semi-professional weldor that isn't proud of his work and wouldn't spend a few minutes showing you how to use the welder (especially if you have hundreds of dollars in your pocket your about to give him for a machine).That means, when you get it home, you have a pretty good idea what your starting point is.With the Internet, there are some videos that help.  Its not the same as seeing it in front of your own eyes.As for warranty.  Within 30 minutes of my house, the LWS has a repair centre with some of the most helpful guys around.  They even have Saturday hours (well, if you consider working to 1pm) and in the past have humoured me with some relatively strange questions.  Nothing like hauling a 500lbs welder up to a shop, getting them to unload it, wire it up, and test it while I wait....   and that being a used welder.  That's called service.For the import welders (and we mean import from China) you will find the support on these forums pretty good.  You post a problem with a welder they will usually either solve it, send you a new part, or very often just replace the welder.  They are very good at replacing welders when needed.  The problem comes after a few years.  Say a circuit board fries, they can't get you a replacement because they changed designs (changed manufacturers) and no longer stock that board.  They tell you its on back order.  How many months?  There are lots of stories with people waiting multiple weeks and even months to get a repair piece that has been back ordered.Flip to Miller, which still had parts for my Radiator 1 (not even a 1a) - vintage 1978!Once you've become proficient with a TIG welder, go ahead and consider an import unit.  At least then you will understand what is going wrong when/if it goes go wrong.There is more to a welder than just a BOM (Bill of Materials).Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Originally Posted by scudzukiInverters are basically specialized power amplifiers. I have seen demonstrations of high end audio amplifiers welding, amps with hugely overbuilt output stages. I owned an older Threshold amp years ago that was rated at 250 WPC. Each channel had an output stage employing 24 discrete 150 watt JFETs (3.6 KW) on enormouse heatsinks and were limited only by the power supplies and protection circuitry. Driven by a 60 or 80 hertz sinewave at maximum gain I probably could have welded with it, although I never tried.Joe
Reply:Thermal Arc 185 is a great little machine to consider...or even the 200.
Reply:Originally Posted by ZmechanicHaha, it's probably a good thing you didn't try. You wouldn't have gotten more than probably 30 amps out of it, and you wouldn't have been able to adjust the current.
Reply:Originally Posted by MrOneEyedBohThey are running 2500. I could get a used miller for a bit lower than that. But thanks though.
Reply:[QUOTE=SundownIII;773741]Please check your P.M.sFrom the desk of Kevin CaronTrying to be the best me I can!www.kevincaron.comAHP Alpha Tig 200x MillerMatic 251Miller Syncrowave 200
Reply:Check out the shop/sell and trade forum here as well.  Alot of machines for sale from experience people.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Just saw a PowCon 300 ST on Craigslist for $300, sound like a good deal. No torch in the photos though. http://norfolk.craigslist.org/tls/2839346658.html Sent from my Kindle Fire using TapatalkMiller Maxstar 200 DX - Syncrowave 200 - MillerMatic 200 - Bobcat 225 NT - Spoolmate 3035/SGA 1003 X Lincoln Power MIGs (200, 215XT 255)3 X Lincoln SP's (100, 125, 130)Thermal Arc 181i (spool gun and TIG torch)HT Powermax 1000 G3
Reply:I found a Lincoln TIG 300, leads, water and air cooled torches and a Bernard cooler in the price range that DSW posted above. Sure it needs 100 amps to run full bore. I feed it 50 and get by with everything that comes through my shop. To give you an idea how dependable U.S. made transformer machines are, Ill post the code number so someone can date it. 6187-H is it. I wanted a Dynasty for the 110v option in the field, but haven't purchased one for the time being. I will when I run across a buy on one, until then I'll keep chugging along with my antique Lincoln.Last edited by hillbillyfab; 02-08-2012 at 07:40 AM.