Water cooler failure??? bad day....

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I was attempting to repair an AR500 target from my range..everything was going great for the first 10 seconds.... then I smell rubber burning...  lift the hood and the line is smoking... WTF.torch is very warm but not hot.... good thing I stopped quick. the only other thing was my ground clamp was on the table instead of the work piece...but I  saw where the piece fused itself to the table.... so it did have good ground... and welded ok until disaster...I turned the cooler back on with the broken line and no water..... So I guess my cooler pump has done sh*t the bed...I have had problems and hatred with this piece of shi+T HTP cooler in the past... time to put together a cooler with my procon pump.... I guess... 'obviously need new torch lines.... was going great until it wasn't ..BTW,the other welds are not mine.... I'm just welding the mount back on  and fixing the swingers... so they can blow it up again...   any thoughts?Had to be the cooler crapped out and lack of water....I had the machine cranked to get a good puddle on this 3/8" ARI need a beer. Miller 211Hypertherm PM 451961 Lincoln Idealarc 250HTP 221  True Wisdom only comes from Pain.
Reply:Took the lines offdisconnected the cooler...   dumped out the liquid...smells of burned rubber hose....the cooler was working but most likely not up to proper pressure. this reminds me of the other HTP cooler thread where the htp cooler was down on PSI after various measurments...Oscar felt the superflex lines played a part....I personally think its this pump. maybe... I've welded aluminum with this machine balls to the wall and the pump did fine.... today, DC killed the pumpLast edited by John T; 05-03-2021 at 03:26 PM.Miller 211Hypertherm PM 451961 Lincoln Idealarc 250HTP 221  True Wisdom only comes from Pain.
Reply:Miller 211Hypertherm PM 451961 Lincoln Idealarc 250HTP 221  True Wisdom only comes from Pain.
Reply:I have an old Miller 1 Coolmate with a clear plastic tube in the front to show the flow of liquid. When I got my first SuperFlex torch I was concerned by the Tiny Dribble it suddenly was down to (no more stream, with the SF it was down to just a trickle). I called CK and asked them what was going on because I was afraid to use it with such low flow. I forget the specific amount that was called for, but it wasn't much (like a Lg soda cup/min). Apparently, the passages are smaller in both the head and in the power wire so it takes very little coolant normally (look at the Gauge of wire in that power hose, it amazes me it can handle the amperage, even though it's immersed in liquid).I've been using it that way for years now at 250A welding a lot of 1/4" Aluminum...
Reply:What is all the electronic stuff... NOT needed. This reminds me of snowplows needing an ecu and circuit boards to run simple hydraulics and solenoids.www.tjsperformance.comDynasty 300 DXHTP 240HTP Microcut 380Hyperthem 85JD2 Hyd Bender and HF Hyd Ring Roller all in one =(Frankenbender)Bpt. Mill/DRO4' x 8' CNC Plasma TableInstagram: tjsperformanceYT: TJS Welding and Fabrication
Reply:Originally Posted by TJSWhat is all the electronic stuff... NOT needed. This reminds me of snowplows needing an ecu and circuit boards to run simple hydraulics and solenoids.
Reply:Originally Posted by BaTuWhen I got my first SuperFlex torch I was concerned by the Tiny Dribble it suddenly was down to (no more stream, with the SF it was down to just a trickle). I called CK and asked them what was going on because I was afraid to use it with such low flow. I forget the specific amount that was called for, but it wasn't much (like a Lg soda cup/min)...
Reply:Originally Posted by John TI will never use SF lines again. Not saying that was the problem But I don’t like the reduction Flex or not Im a weekend warrior Regular lines will be fine. Also I will install this....I used one on another cooler Its peace of mind.
Reply:Originally Posted by G-ManBartWhat sort of coolant were you running?.
Reply:Same thing happened to me when I was doing my 221 duty cycle torture test on the very first run.  That line is very old, as was mine.  The heat causes the accumulated crud to be released off of the copper conductor and stops the flow at the dinse connector until the wire heats up to the point where it melts and busts the hose.   Luckily I had a spare water-cooled power cable, swapped it and all was good.  Welding on DC definitely produces more heat output and places much greater strain on everything, especially near the top-end rating of the power hose.Last edited by Oscar; 05-04-2021 at 09:26 PM. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:Originally Posted by OscarSame thing happened to me when I was doing my 221 duty cycle torture test on the very first run.  That line is very old, as was mine.  The heat causes the accumulated crud to be released off of the copper conductor and stops the flow at the dinse connector until the wire heats up to the point where it melts and busts the hose.   Luckily I had a spare water-cooled power cable, swapped it and all was good.  Welding on DC definitely produces more heat output and places much greater strain on everything, especially near the top-end rating of the power hose.
Reply:I use distilled water with a ~1 cup auto-antifreeze.DC has no "rest periods" that AC does when the polarity switches.  See, "square waves" are not actually square in a square-wave welder; they are approximations of a square wave.  So if you were to plot the amperage vs time (or even observe it on an oscilloscope set-up to 'view' amperage with the proper probes), and if you zoom in close enough (by stretching the horizontal time axis), the 'vertical line' between the two polarities isn't vertical, it actually has a slope to it.  Each zero-crossing is a miniature cooling period where both the arc (and thus the amperage flowing in the cable) diminish.  During that slope-down/slope-up between the pos/neg crests of the wave, there is roughly ½ of the energy compared to if it really were to switch polarities instantaneously.  As a corollary, this is why AC welders with adjustable frequency can put a lot of heat into a part with a lower frequency.  With a lower frequency, fewer zero-crossings, means there are fewer polarity switches by which welding power is "lost" over the long-term. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:Here is mine. Original water-cooled power hose that came with the machine in 2013.  Note the similarity in the failure.and yep, it stunk BAD.   If y'alls water-cooled TIG hoses are more than 4 to 5 years old, I highly suggest you keep a spare on hand.  I know I will.  So all in all, I'd say your water cooler did not fail.  I'd bet your motor/pump are perfectly fine.   Wash out the crud from the plastic reservoir, flush the system out real good, and I'd bet it will keep going once you replace the faulty parts.I have an idea for a much better solution, but I won't be able to test it out until summer when I'm on vacation.  And y'all know me.  I only invent stuff that works. (and if it doesn't I'll disappear until everybody forgets, lol)Last edited by Oscar; 05-05-2021 at 12:21 AM. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:Thanks that explanation makes perfect sense. That hose looks identical. I think this is the first time I’ve ever read of something like this happening. After I calmed down I decided to stick with the super flex hose. I have a new set on the way from HTP.Miller 211Hypertherm PM 451961 Lincoln Idealarc 250HTP 221  True Wisdom only comes from Pain.
Reply:I think you'll be perfectly fine.  After I swapped mine out, I continued with the duty cycle torture test with the brand new hose and it performed just fine. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:I run automotive coolant, but Only DexCool (whos MSDS is almost identical to Millers Tig Coolant and without any sealers - it really is different than "regular" automotive) mixed with distilled water (which if used by itself can try to "balance" it's lack of mineral content and might be pulling stuff out of the copper).I also have an automotive fuel filter (that clear little bullet shaped one we always saw on VW Beetles) in my old crappy Coolmate One but have the ability to monitor flow from that sight gauge on the front. I think it's been that way for 8yrs or more, haven't seen any crud in the filter or noticed a restricted flow...
Reply:Where is the crud coming from. Have the HTP hoses too which I think are CKs. Anyway I noticed the whitish color hose under the braid looks like it breaks down over time and develops tiny cracks in the hose. I never had a failure like you guys did but I have had hoses just crack and leak. I use distilled water and Radnor coolant. I flush and clean about once a year. There is a strainer on the bottom of my pickup. I have a pressure gauge also but I don't have a whirlyigig paddle wheel.www.tjsperformance.comDynasty 300 DXHTP 240HTP Microcut 380Hyperthem 85JD2 Hyd Bender and HF Hyd Ring Roller all in one =(Frankenbender)Bpt. Mill/DRO4' x 8' CNC Plasma TableInstagram: tjsperformanceYT: TJS Welding and Fabrication
Reply:Originally Posted by TJSWhere is the crud coming from. Have the HTP hoses too which I think are CKs. Anyway I noticed the whitish color hose under the braid looks like it breaks down over time and develops tiny cracks in the hose. I never had a failure like you guys did but I have had hoses just crack and leak. I use distilled water and Radnor coolant. I flush and clean about once a year. There is a strainer on the bottom of my pickup. I have a pressure gauge also but I don't have a whirlyigig paddle wheel.
Reply:What's the "white" hose,?  The white under the red is more cloth, but the hose itself is black (like all the others I think...)
Reply:Originally Posted by BaTuWhat's the "white" hose,?  The white under the red is more cloth, but the hose itself is black (like all the others I think...)
Reply:My CK SuperFlex hoses are all Black though... (under the cloth braiding)
Reply:These are the hoses off of my machine. In a fit of depression/rage I just clipped everything.  none of the hoses look bad Internally except for the power hose/cord... because it got smoked. I blame my situation on the HTP pump. I never felt it was up to proper pressure. Maybe I got a dud who knows. It worked fine for a few years and then all of a sudden the flow alarm started going offAnd it all went downhill from there. I blame the pump/not the hoses or deterioration thereof etc. etc. but that’s just my opinionNew hoses are on the wayAnd I am installing a procon pump/motor in the old housing. Not the prettiest thing but I’m sure it will work. I will be installing quad muffin fans in front of The radiator alsoI have offered the HTP pump and motor to Oscar for forensics testing if he wishes. I am done. Last edited by John T; 05-05-2021 at 02:41 PM.Miller 211Hypertherm PM 451961 Lincoln Idealarc 250HTP 221  True Wisdom only comes from Pain.
Reply:From an earlier discussion about SuperFlex hoses, my black hose https://weldingweb.com/vbb/threads/4...ight=SuperFlex
Reply:Are you going to flush it out really good prior to using the new hoses?Lincoln, ESAB, Thermal Dynamics, Victor, Miller, Dewalt, Makita, Kalamzoo.  Hand tools, power tools, welding and cutting tools.
Reply:Originally Posted by BaTuI run automotive coolant, but Only DexCool (whos MSDS is almost identical to Millers Tig Coolant and without any sealers - it really is different than "regular" automotive) mixed with distilled water (which if used by itself can try to "balance" it's lack of mineral content and might be pulling stuff out of the copper).I also have an automotive fuel filter (that clear little bullet shaped one we always saw on VW Beetles) in my old crappy Coolmate One but have the ability to monitor flow from that sight gauge on the front. I think it's been that way for 8yrs or more, haven't seen any crud in the filter or noticed a restricted flow...Originally Posted by N2 WeldingAre you going to flush it out really good prior to using the new hoses?
Reply:Update,I tested the HTP motor and pump and the pump is DOADisintegrated shear pin on the main shaft of the motor. I installed a procon 220 V Motor/pumpRunning into a 5 gallon pail of distilled water. @ 50 psi, I am pushing just over 1 QT.  per minute.  (through CK super flex lines)FAR BETTER #’s  than what I got a while back when we tested the HTP coolers / flow. IMO,The HTP arctic chill coolers are junk. I also don’t buy the excuse that it’s the  flex lines expanding or whatever and reducing the flow. It’s just not the case when you have a proper pump pushing the water. I have seen this firsthand. I’ve been testing this thing all day and it’s pumping steady without a hiccup. (through the torch)I installed a visual flow meter for peace of mind/just glance over and you can see the water moving through the WhirlyGig. Also installed a pressure gauge to make sure it remains at the set pressure.  I plan to install a 220 V fan on the backside of the radiator. That along with 5 gallons of water should be plenty. The pump motor also has a fan internally which is a nice feature. Thanks Gary wherever you are. All I need to do now is find some proper replacement lines. Most of them fit ok but the barbs going to the TIG torch are smaller than normal. Must be an Italian thing. Miller 211Hypertherm PM 451961 Lincoln Idealarc 250HTP 221  True Wisdom only comes from Pain.
Reply:I get the idea that the coolant is to keep the torch cool but I don't understand why the cooler failure is damaging the cable. Is the hose intended to keep the cable cool too? It seems that the cable is too small for the length used and the current it is carrying?I think that a failed cooler will make the torch too hot to hold, not burn up the cable? Can someone explain?A March 809 pump is an excellent pump but its 12 volts. I have one on my hydronic heater on the boat and it pumps hot water all day.Do not believe everything that you think.
Reply:Originally Posted by XsbankI get the idea that the coolant is to keep the torch cool but I don't understand why the cooler failure is damaging the cable. Is the hose intended to keep the cable cool too? It seems that the cable is too small for the length used and the current it is carrying?I think that a failed cooler will make the torch too hot to hold, not burn up the cable? Can someone explain?A March 809 pump is an excellent pump but its 12 volts. I have one on my hydronic heater on the boat and it pumps hot water all day.
Reply:Originally Posted by Oscar The conductor is approximately 10 gauge.  That is meant to carry 250A.
Reply:Originally Posted by BaTuWay smaller than that in my 25ft SF hoses (like 14ga!)...
Reply:Originally Posted by XsbankI get the idea that the coolant is to keep the torch cool but I don't understand why the cooler failure is damaging the cable. Is the hose intended to keep the cable cool too? It seems that the cable is too small for the length used and the current it is carrying?I think that a failed cooler will make the torch too hot to hold, not burn up the cable? Can someone explain?
Reply:Originally Posted by OscarWhich brand superflex hoses are you using?   Did yours also burst?
Reply:Originally Posted by BaTuOh no, I melted it after turning the cooler Off and then deciding I had enough time to keep welding for a few more mins  ~hehe (this was Years ago and I replaced just the power hose -ck 225pcsf-). But the thing that I couldn't get over was how thin the copper can be if you water cool that cable.3/32 Tungsten rod comparison
Reply:Originally Posted by John TI was attempting to repair an AR500 target from my range..everything was going great for the first 10 seconds.... then I smell rubber burning...  lift the hood and the line is smoking... WTF.torch is very warm but not hot.... good thing I stopped quick. the only other thing was my ground clamp was on the table instead of the work piece...but I  saw where the piece fused itself to the table.... so it did have good ground... and welded ok until disaster...I turned the cooler back on with the broken line and no water..... So I guess my cooler pump has done sh*t the bed...I have had problems and hatred with this piece of shi+T HTP cooler in the past... time to put together a cooler with my procon pump.... I guess... 'obviously need new torch lines.... was going great until it wasn't ..BTW,the other welds are not mine.... I'm just welding the mount back on  and fixing the swingers... so they can blow it up again...   any thoughts?Had to be the cooler crapped out and lack of water....I had the machine cranked to get a good puddle on this 3/8" ARI need a beer. Attachment 1727344Attachment 1727345Attachment 1727346Attachment 1727347
Reply:Originally Posted by 123weldalso, i like mild steel for targets better, as the slug emebeds more, so less stuff to fly around
Reply:Originally Posted by G-ManBartI'm only commenting because this is absolutely false and bad advice....even dangerous advice.  You can do whatever you want, but nobody should believe, much less follow this advice.  For background purposes, I've managed firearms training facilities multiple times over the years in the military and on the federal law enforcement level.  I've been involved in range management, maintenance, construction and repair during those times as well.  I've been a firearms instructor for most of that time, and a competitive shooter for 38 years helping manage ranges and maintain them.  I've had access to studies done trying to predict shrapnel trajectories off steel targets done for one of the largest federal law enforcement training facilities in the country as well.  I don't consider myself an expert in predicting bullet behavior after hitting steel, but I've talked to the folks who are, and read their studies.  They will always recommend hardened steel targets, generally with the top slightly closer to the shooter to minimize the risk of shrapnel hitting the shooter.  After decades of shooting literally hundreds of thousands of rounds, much of it on steel, my experience matches what the experts claim.About two years ago I helped a target company conduct a test on just this very topic....I'm close friends with the brother-in-law of the owner.  They made identical targets out of AR500 and extra thick mild steel thinking the extra thickness would keep them from denting and be cheaper than the AR500.  They brought the targets to my range and even with normal pistol calibers like 9mm and .40S&W the shrapnel was flying all over the place...we could hear it landing on the roof of my shop (metal roof) after every shot.  Switched to the AR500 target and all we heard were pieces landing in the leaves in the woods on either side of the range....going over the side berms a bit, but not back towards us.All the times I've seen shooters get cut by shrapnel it's always been on steel with dimples that was about to the point where it needed to be replaced.I have a couple of mild steel targets on my pistol range (50yd pistol bay behind my shop) but I only shoot them with rimfire or extremely mild ammo like .38 wadcutters.  Any time I let friends shoot on my range I lay those targets down so they don't get shot by accident.Hardened steel targets are the safest choice...period.
Reply:Miller 211Hypertherm PM 451961 Lincoln Idealarc 250HTP 221  True Wisdom only comes from Pain.
Reply:Back to the HTP thing...Well actually, CK via HTP.... My new CK superflex lines are slightly different than the original set I had...  The short red line going into the Dinse is now a solid line (not super flex)also comes with a fabric type hose covering with a zipper....whereas the original came with a leather/velcro cover...  hmm..... I'll prolly swap the covers...the leather slides nicer than the fabric....  especially when it's wrapped around yer neck... Miller 211Hypertherm PM 451961 Lincoln Idealarc 250HTP 221  True Wisdom only comes from Pain.
Reply:Mine also came that way on my Invertig 400.  The kit itself from CK doesn't include the Dinse connector nor the short hose, so it's kinda pieced together by vendors.  You can usually see this if you look for the "bare" kits on Amazon or other vendors as well.  HTP can get the leather cover, but it's an added expense as it is not standard anymore.  I just recently ordered a 25ft torch with superflex hoses and I'm glad I asked because I also prefer the leather cover.Last edited by Oscar; 05-12-2021 at 10:24 PM. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:Originally Posted by 123weld     also, i like mild steel for targets better, as the slug emebeds more, so less stuff to fly around
Reply:Originally Posted by 123weldI'm only commenting because this is absolutely false and bad advice...your so full of ****
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveYou may have forgot, so here is a reminder, being polite during disagreements is a good thing.  Most people appreciate it.
Reply:Originally Posted by 123weldwasnt a typical disagreement, he just bypassed questioning/addressing me, and jumped directly to  telling everyone else im absolutely false, and  carries on w/ a bunch of mumbo jumbo trying to build himself up.         i've never talked to the guy, i was sharing my experience w/ member john, when he butt in and did this.   not polite,  rude on his part.      so, i replied accordingly .    i hope u review it again
Reply:Oh wonderful!  And I JUST received my arctic chill.  How dumb does that make me?  Should I give it back?Let's see if Jeff calls me this week.
Reply:As long as it works...I like the procon pumps best. They just seem to keep going.Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Reply:John, not trying to poke a stick in your eye, but I noticed in another one of your threads you put a couple of capfulls of chlorine bleach into the cooler in the past. I wonder if that wasn't the cause of your failure. Was the shear pin corroded at all?
Reply:Originally Posted by Louie1961John, not trying to poke a stick in your eye, but I noticed in another one of your threads you put a couple of capfulls of chlorine bleach into the cooler in the past. I wonder if that wasn't the cause of your failure. Was the shear pin corroded at all?
Reply:Originally Posted by John TThese are the hoses off of my machine. In a fit of depression/rage I just clipped everything.  none of the hoses look bad Internally except for the power hose/cord... because it got smoked. I blame my situation on the HTP pump. I never felt it was up to proper pressure. Maybe I got a dud who knows. It worked fine for a few years and then all of a sudden the flow alarm started going offAnd it all went downhill from there. I blame the pump/not the hoses or deterioration thereof etc. etc. but that’s just my opinionNew hoses are on the wayAnd I am installing a procon pump/motor in the old housing. Not the prettiest thing but I’m sure it will work. I will be installing quad muffin fans in front of The radiator alsoI have offered the HTP pump and motor to Oscar for forensics testing if he wishes. I am done.
Reply:Originally Posted by John TThese are the hoses off of my machine. In a fit of depression/rage I just clipped everything.  none of the hoses look bad Internally except for the power hose/cord... because it got smoked. I blame my situation on the HTP pump. I never felt it was up to proper pressure. Maybe I got a dud who knows. It worked fine for a few years and then all of a sudden the flow alarm started going offAnd it all went downhill from there. I blame the pump/not the hoses or deterioration thereof etc. etc. but that’s just my opinionNew hoses are on the wayAnd I am installing a procon pump/motor in the old housing. Not the prettiest thing but I’m sure it will work. I will be installing quad muffin fans in front of The radiator alsoI have offered the HTP pump and motor to Oscar for forensics testing if he wishes. I am done.