Trailer welding question

admin

Friend of mine has a trailer and wants to add some support to it, see the picture below.It's a 5x10 utility trailer. Thinking about doing this for him. I'm not a trailer guru by any means so a few questions if you guys can help would be great.Generally what thickness is the center piece? And how far out/in should the side supports be?If I do it, I'm looking to tig weld it. Standard ER wire. I'm far more comfortable with my tig skills over my mig skills.Also wondering if I should do a single tig pass or multiple pass. Attached ImagesTorchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleGenerally what thickness is the center piece?
Reply:What kind of cross section is that tow bar?5'x10' is kind of big for a single bar.old Miller spectrum 625 Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wireMiller model 250 and WP-18V torchCraftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torchCentury 115-004 HF arc stabilizerHome made 4 transformer spot welderHome made alternator welder
Reply:Lol I'm not confused. I spent a lot of time tig welding and not so much time mig welding. If it was a project that wasn't going to be on the road I would have no issues mig welding, but tig is the one I'm best at.I'm trying to get it all figured out as to what the thickness should be. I haven't seen the trailer yet. Just the picture is all I have to go by.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by mad welder 4What kind of cross section is that tow bar?5'x10' is kind of big for a single bar.
Reply:If you are not sure of your abilities, nor what the parts of a trailer are called, then perhaps you should wait on a build such as this. Peoples lives depend on this type of thing, specifically the people behind it on the highway. There is no shame in saying that you are not comfortable doing something, and referring him to a qualified welder. Also, you likely do not have liability insurance, nor DOT approval to do this type of work. While this may not seem like a big deal to you, it will be if the trailer is ever involved in a wreck. Picture this. A semi rear ends this trailer. The tongue snaps off and sends the overloaded trailer into the cab of the SUV killing the rear seat occupants. The accident investigator notes the trailer had been modified. The prosecuting attorney gets hold of the info and asks the owner who modified it, he say my friend 'my friend Gamble from the internet did it'. Then they come and see you, and you have to come up with some good answers.  Be careful my friend.
Reply:Well that's why I figured since the trailer is already built and it was just adding supports it wouldn't be as bad as building a trailer from scratch.I'm confident in my tig welding ability hence why I would tig it. Just unfamiliar with trailers and their parts.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by norite....weld it like your kids are going to ride in it.
Reply:looks like gamble is in over his head again used trailer my Choice of attack process would be stick(smaw) with a second fcaw right behind it and a general understanding of how the structural members of the trailer work please do not pull a edmac and be a HACKMiller Xmt 350Lincoln Ln-25Ahp 200xSmith Gas Mixer AR/HTig is my Kung FuThrowing down dimes and weaving aboutInstagram http://instagram.com/[email protected]
Reply:Search "utility trailer crash". Seems they almost all involve the trailer disconnecting from the vehicle. Keep scrolling down a page or two, then once you get past all the "trailers disconnecting from vehicle crashes" you see a few jack knifed utility trailer crashes and people who lost control of their vehicle for one reason or another.One involved a wheel coming off a trailer.The only time I have seen a utility trailer come apart was when I was driving on I-35 north of Dallas and some Mexicans had home made trailer with no tags that appeared to have been nearly 10 feet wide and at least 14 feet long put together with the rustiest metal any one could find, appeared to have been in at least one prior wreck. On top of that heap of scrap there was a load of scrap secured with no more than Newtonian physics. It sounds sketchy but we have all seen it before and normally such a thing would not cause any problems unless for some reason you had to take it upon your self to make a bad idea worse by flat towing a 78-91 suburban behind it all with a rope.It appears something didn't go according to plan and parts of trailer and scrap metal (hard to tell the 2 apart) ended up all over the right and break down lane of the highway.I had my window rolled down ready to start yelling insults and flipping people off but when I got up to the wreck it was such a colossal cluster that I could not wrap my mind around what had happened in the few moments as I drove by.I would bet money that it started when the flat towed suburban rear ended the utility trailer and broke the frame.God forbid they make two or three trips.After a good hour or 2 of viewing the internets finest utility trailer carnage I wouldn't be at all against having a mandatory state safety course for people who want to use a trailer.Seems you better look out for the trailer users and not the trailer builders or repair men so much, as it seems the act of attaching the trailer to the vehicle with the proper hardware and using safety chains seems to be a challenge for some.Last edited by mad welder 4; 09-24-2013 at 01:46 AM.old Miller spectrum 625 Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wireMiller model 250 and WP-18V torchCraftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torchCentury 115-004 HF arc stabilizerHome made 4 transformer spot welderHome made alternator welder
Reply:The problem with many of these small utility trailers is they are produced with tubing/structural members "Just thick enough" to get the job done. It can be thin enough to make stick "interesting". If he can get the metal cleaned up to the levels TIG requires I see no reason for him to not use TIG on this since it's what he's most comfortable with. I'd say start with a single pass and if it's good enough it's good enough but if you feel a multipass is called for after the single pass then go for it but I'd wager single pass should do it. Personally if I was adding to it like you propose, I'd try to get some either tubing that fairly closely matches the thickness or some slightly thicker C-channel and get 'er done. Shouldn't be hard at all to accomplish. Couldn't begin to tell you what the thickness of that one is merely looking at the photo unfortunately.Last edited by JD955SC; 09-24-2013 at 02:07 AM.Hobart Stickmate LX235AC/160DCRanger 305GVictor 315 O/A rigHope to acquire in the next couple of years: Hypertherm PM45 and Dynasty 200DX
Reply:www.dangeroustrailers.orgSent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 4TxDoc's Photos Lincoln SP175 PlusLincoln Power Mig 256Lincoln 250 LX Spool Gun Lincoln Precision Tig 225 Hypertherm 600 KMG 2x72 Belt GrinderBaldor 812RE Grinder
Reply:*IF* a trailer is well designed, all the components are matched.   Strengthening one area will not increase the overall capacity or safety because other parts are still limited in their capacity.   Bottom line, strengthening just one section will not increase the safe capacity, IMO.
Reply:All-well-and-good, discussing how strong the trailer structure can be....However, there is a major limiting factor here.How much weight was the AXLE designed to carry?Once you beef up the frame (add weight), you can carry more weight on the trailer's bed.That won't mean squat when the springs are maxed out, the wheel bearings are fried and then the axle is bent!As stated before, these little utility trailers are designed for a particular load (not much) and modifying only one part is a recipie for trouble.Ask me how I know about overloading a utility trailer's axle.My current utility trailer is used to carry a boat.Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:Seriously?  Generally what the thickness of the center piece is doesn't matter one bit. What matters is the thickness of the center piece YOU ARE WORKING ON. And, if you have to put up a picture and ask someone what the thickness is, do us all a favor, don't weld anything that requires structural intergity.A good welder would never have to ask someone (via photo no less) "How thick is the metal?"Sorry...................Millermatic 211Lincoln Precision TIG 225Century 250 MIGLincoln 225 AC Box (sold)I support my local welding store (Amazon, McMasterCarr, Cyberweld, EBay).
Reply:I was asking so I can purchase the same thickness metal. I don't sit and study trailers. So it was more of a general question like are they typically 1/8" or 1/4"? I don't want to get 1/8" if it's 1/4".Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:As you stated you have not seen the actual trailer (only a photo), you may have to wait and give the trailer a visual inspection to see if there is an open end in the OEM tongue where you can measure the wall thickness.But I too feel that any kind of "supposed reinforcement" is not going to enhance safety or performance of the trailer from how it was built.  The trailer was built to perform within a prescribed range or rating and nothing you can do to a single aspect is going to make it any better, or stronger/safer overall. That has already been stated by other members.The liability issue is not to be dealt with in a casual manner....watched any TV lately?  Try counting the adverts put up by the ambulance chasing lawyers.Yep, when somebody modifies a product they relieve the OEM of all responsibility and instead shift the responsibility over to their own shoulder.In this land of litigation, product liability lawsuits are big business for lawyers and victims of a mishap will eagerly saddle up with one given the need to.
Reply:I know what you mean, but when someone wants it modified a specific way I won't argue.I know that trailer welding is a big "no no" here, but if you never try you will never know. I've been tig welding long enough I'm comfortable with my skill level to do this. I'm not comfortable to build one from scratch though. And it will by no means be a rush job. I also figured if I had an idea on what thickness the material is I could get an idea on pricing of the metal. I'll let you know what he decides to do.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleI know that trailer welding is a big "no no" here,
Reply:Way to rub it in lol.That thing looks fantastic!Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Thanks! Not bad for a hobbyist? Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:I am curious as to why your bud wants to add this reinforcement to the tongue of the trailer. Does he feel that the single beam tongue is a weak area or has he been experiencing issues with it?Hobart Stickmate LX235AC/160DCRanger 305GVictor 315 O/A rigHope to acquire in the next couple of years: Hypertherm PM45 and Dynasty 200DX
Reply:I have no idea. Lets use friend loosely lolTorchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleI have no idea. Lets use friend loosely lol
Reply:there are all kinds of things wrong with this build. just to scratch the surface- it appears the builder was very aware of how stress is transferred to adjoining members,excess bracing was installed, diaphragms installed opposite of top and bottom beam chords,excessive and inline bolting of planking, no noticeable torch cut fastener holes for cross members,excess recessed tiedown hooks that don't catch everything, a winch mount that is way overbuilt and the winch is covered from the elements,clearance lights and breakaway switch mounted in a protected fashion,and that was just looking at the front and sides. who knows what other mistakes could be seen if looked at all four sides of the trailer! for all we know the builder who obviously can't weld, measure or design has probably installed recessed and protected lights on the rear and included a marker plate light. all tongue-in-cheek looks like a SUPER build. wouldn't expect any less of this poster after he has repeatedly shown excellent weld test coupons and given constantly helpful advice to all. thank you. hobbyist my ***!Originally Posted by dbl612hobbyist my ***!
Reply:Originally Posted by dbl612there are all kinds of things wrong with this build. just to scratch the surface- it appears the builder was very aware of how stress is transferred to adjoining members,excess bracing was installed, diaphragms installed opposite of top and bottom beam chords,excessive and inline bolting of planking, no noticeable torch cut fastener holes for cross members,excess recessed tiedown hooks that don't catch everything, a winch mount that is way overbuilt and the winch is covered from the elements,clearance lights and breakaway switch mounted in a protected fashion,and that was just looking at the front and sides. who knows what other mistakes could be seen if looked at all four sides of the trailer! for all we know the builder who obviously can't weld, measure or design has probably installed recessed and protected lights on the rear and included a marker plate light. all tongue-in-cheek looks like a SUPER build. wouldn't expect any less of this poster after he has repeatedly shown excellent weld test coupons and given constantly helpful advice to all. thank you. hobbyist my ***!
Reply:Don't start anything until the guy comes clean with his intentions. It may be that he wants to improve stability, it may be that he wants to add stuff up front, battery, tool box, etc., he will have to elaborate. I see what looks like 3" tube for a tongue (probably 3/16" wall), sheet metal sides, and wooden floor boards. You will have to look at the frame layout to see what is under there. Otherwise, it is all just talk. I would match what is used on the frame, (if I did the work), if everything looked in good shape. I would stick weld it, just to spite the mig machine. If you feel confident in tig, and take on the job, by all means, tig it.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:nice trailer CepMiller Xmt 350Lincoln Ln-25Ahp 200xSmith Gas Mixer AR/HTig is my Kung FuThrowing down dimes and weaving aboutInstagram http://instagram.com/[email protected]
Reply:SOOO Gamble, whatever became of this project? Did you do it, or did it fall through? There has been plenty of time to have completed it by now.
Reply:Never heard back from him.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Not to be disrespectful but if you have to ask about a simple job like this maybe you shouldn't be doing the welding on it. I'm not trying to be nasty but if your not confident of your welding abilities don't do it.For me this job screams for mig welding not tig. If someone brings me a weld job I do it my way or I don't do it. I've never had a weld come apart and kill someone.Good luck on what ever you do.
Reply:Nice work on the trailer CEP.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPOh I don't know, I built this. No one said a word.
Reply:Originally Posted by WeldorWesnice trailer Cep
Reply:It's all cool.  (big smile)"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I have a tendancy to push the light alternative.  sometimes maybe too light dunno"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleNever heard back from him.
Reply:too many "experts",might have scared him away from sharing his experience right away on the project to the rest of us
Reply:As far as the OP's trailer.I would bet it was 1/16" tube steel same as you find in lots of boat trailers.Strength is in the tube, not the thickness.CEPS trailer looks like a Bumper hitch to Gooseneck change.Am I correct?
Reply:Originally Posted by drujininCEPS trailer looks like a Bumper hitch to Gooseneck change.Am I correct?