i need this job

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I am going to miami on monday to look at a job. it consists of building aluminum frames for a photobooth company. i know i will need to bringa tape, pen and paper, and take photos with my phone, but what else do i need? its basically thin aluminum, 1/8" max. Ill take measurements of each panel, and other material. there are some pins that look like 1/4" or 1/2 inch round. (saw them on video online). anyway, this job would allow me to quit my job as a $14 an hour fabricator welder at a fab shop. this company ships these worldwide, and it will be a ongoing project. i am hoping to get 3-4 units done a month by myself. i will have to sub out a couple pieces of aluminum tubing as they are arched, unless you can gimme a way to do it nicely myself. I will come back here monday evening with more information on the project. Thanks for being here, im ganna need the help.....Joe
Reply:Good Luck Joe, Good bunch of knowable people on here Im sure someone will be able to help you with something if needed.How long will the project last? Will it be all tig work?Look forward to hearing about it monday evening. Dale
Reply:Will they not supply you prints or a CAD model of the frame? Something that might eliminate a lot of back and forth.ESAB Heliarc 252
Reply:Joe, I wouldn't quit your day job until you are 100% sure you can make this work. Take vacation if need be or try to stuff this into your spare time. See if you can cut back to PT. I know a few people who thought the grass was greener on the other side of the fence and quit an existing job only to find for one reason or another things didn't work the way they planned. In this economy there are guys lined up to take your spot, so don't count on being employed if things fall thru. I'd also be leery of any job that's 100% dependent on any one client to survive. A change of personnel at that place could mean they change gears in a few months and go with a different design and supplier. They could get tight for cash and cut back on the quantity and decide to roll out slower than expected, or worse go under and you are F'd.I've worked those sucky menial jobs, but there are days when funds are super tight where I'd trade owning my own business for a guaranteed check every week for a known amount..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by powerGood Luck Joe, Good bunch of knowable people on here Im sure someone will be able to help you with something if needed.How long will the project last? Will it be all tig work?Look forward to hearing about it monday evening. Dale
Reply:Joe, Be careful Mate, You say that the guy has another company building them but can't keep up??? I find that a likely story, for starters if the company can't keep up they employ more welders and fabricators, he's not going to risk losing them by getting someone else to do the work?? Think about itWhats he like at paying?? Perhaps he's deperate to get more made because he hasn't paid the other firm?No Drawings or Cad images also sets of alarm bells in my experiance, i always get Cad drawings from the customer for anything i build, it saves on mistakes and ensures that the product is built in the way that the client requires it. I find it hard to believe that the guy hasn't any drawings and expects you to simply knock a few up based on your rough skecthes and photos.I would do what others have said, Dont quit your job just yet, its a crap job as you say but it pays you regular, If this deal isn't what it seems you'll end up with nothing, so take a break, a holiday at least and if it don't work out at least you've got a job to fall back on.About the Payment??  you say1-2 thousand per booth
Reply:Originally Posted by Gerry1964Joe, Be careful Mate, You say that the guy has another company building them but can't keep up??? I find that a likely story, for starters if the company can't keep up they employ more welders and fabricators, he's not going to risk losing them by getting someone else to do the work?? Think about itWhats he like at paying?? Perhaps he's deperate to get more made because he hasn't paid the other firm?No Drawings or Cad images also sets of alarm bells in my experiance, i always get Cad drawings from the customer for anything i build, it saves on mistakes and ensures that the product is built in the way that the client requires it. I find it hard to believe that the guy hasn't any drawings and expects you to simply knock a few up based on your rough skecthes and photos.I would do what others have said, Dont quit your job just yet, its a crap job as you say but it pays you regular, If this deal isn't what it seems you'll end up with nothing, so take a break, a holiday at least and if it don't work out at least you've got a job to fall back on.About the Payment??  you sayTo me thats a hell of a lot of difference and a customer who has loads of these would know exactly how much they are paying per booth so try and find out a more realistic figure, you can't work by that quote alone.Finally who's paying for the material? Get the customer to pay for the first one up front and that way your covered if they don't pay at the end, You've never done anything like this before whereas the company that can't keep up have made loads, I'm positive you'll get a load of hassle about the finished product, and probably more to prevent you getting paid, so just be very careful.
Reply:the pics arent big enough.....heres the video he sent me. the 1st 5 minutes pertains to me.......Last edited by loolagigi; 10-13-2012 at 08:27 AM.
Reply:I say go for it If your only making 14 buck an hour. good marine fab shops deal with very high end clients (big money). they probably make 10,000 or more in the same time it takes to make that booth. they are probably booked with jobs far more profitable. If i were you i would roll bend myself, good jigs, and crank these out. Make every minute count!www.performancealuminumfabrication.com
Reply:Originally Posted by travisc454I say go for it If your only making 14 buck an hour. good marine fab shops deal with very high end clients (big money). they probably make 10,000 or more in the same time it takes to make that booth. they are probably booked with jobs far more profitable. If i were you i would roll bend myself, good jigs, and crank these out. Make every minute count!
Reply:maybe i can aluminum stick this stuff. not sure yet.
Reply:I see probably $1000 of  aluminum alone if you are buying just to make one.  price on material drops drastically based on how much material you buy.    Make sure you have a written contract for this job.  From the looks of it they must have CAD drawings for all those parts.  Do you know what they sell those booths for?  I see they rent them. I bet they rent for $$ too.  obviously they are providing the camera, printer all the hardware too.    Take a micrometer or metal thickness gauge so you know exactly what thickness each material is.   If they don't have CAD drawings I would insist on taking a completed booth back with you to build from.   You are going to miss some measurements that you didn't realize till you are actually building it.. I think to make a profit you need a guaranteed # of these to build.  If the company wants to do it all on a handshake I would be very weary of them.   you need to get them to pay for materials before you buy and balance on delivery.  the company is also going to want a delivery time guarantee etc.  you definitely need to get something to bend the metal yourself.   If you are going to sub contract any work you will need to do your own CAD drawings if they are not provided.  Finally Check into getting liability insurance...   If a weld fails and the booth collapses on someone you will be in a world of hurt.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawI see probably $1000 of  aluminum alone if you are buying just to make one.  price on material drops drastically based on how much material you buy.    Make sure you have a written contract for this job.  From the looks of it they must have CAD drawings for all those parts.  Do you know what they sell those booths for?  I see they rent them. I bet they rent for $$ too.  obviously they are providing the camera, printer all the hardware too.    Take a micrometer or metal thickness gauge so you know exactly what thickness each material is.   If they don't have CAD drawings I would insist on taking a completed booth back with you to build from.   You are going to miss some measurements that you didn't realize till you are actually building it.. I think to make a profit you need a guaranteed # of these to build.  If the company wants to do it all on a handshake I would be very weary of them.   you need to get them to pay for materials before you buy and balance on delivery.  the company is also going to want a delivery time guarantee etc.  you definitely need to get something to bend the metal yourself.   If you are going to sub contract any work you will need to do your own CAD drawings if they are not provided.  Finally Check into getting liability insurance...   If a weld fails and the booth collapses on someone you will be in a world of hurt.
Reply:" i know i will need to bring a tape, pen and paper, and take photos with my phone, but what else do i need? "
Reply:Originally Posted by Randall_HA CAMERA!!!Scarp the take photos with your phone idea  it will not hold enough quality photos!! and I don't care how good your phone is or how much it cost.Get a real camera and take allot of pics, and I mean ALLOT!!you can put 500 pics on a camera and answer your own questions while doing your estimate without bothering the client. As a former estimator/purchaser/project manager for a custom sign manufacturer, I can't stress enough that the more pics you take in the beginning makes the rest of the job go smoother.Just my 2 centsGood Luck
Reply:Good luck with the Job.You will also have to make several jigs.  Jigs take time to build.  Sub as much out as possible.  There is much grinding/sanding/deburring, forming, drilling, cutting.  1/week might be ambitions building alone.  I would need at least a mental break if i were building doing everything.  Subbing frees you up to do other stuff, like rest and find other work. I like making tools and "work around stuff".   However, this is an occasion that I would be very specific and precise on how I want to get stuff done.  Stuff's got to fit, without reaming. trimming or forcing 500 parts for already cut to "size". Also, some provision for change need to be agreed upon.  If his equipment changes, then your templates jigs will need to change.  Do you have a place to keep all the stuff you are going to build? Can you move it around? Will you need to package it for shipping?  Package can cost and be time consuming.
Reply:Originally Posted by tapwelderGood luck with the Job.You will also have to make several jigs.  Jigs take time to build.  Sub as much out as possible.  There is much grinding/sanding/deburring, forming, drilling, cutting.  1/week might be ambitions building alone.  I would need at least a mental break if i were building doing everything.  Subbing frees you up to do other stuff, like rest and find other work. I like making tools and "work around stuff".   However, this is an occasion that I would be very specific and precise on how I want to get stuff done.  Stuff's got to fit, without reaming. trimming or forcing 500 parts for already cut to "size". Also, some provision for change need to be agreed upon.  If his equipment changes, then your templates jigs will need to change.  Do you have a place to keep all the stuff you are going to build? Can you move it around? Will you need to package it for shipping?  Package can cost and be time consuming.
Reply:Originally Posted by loolagigialso whats something like this go for as labor cost? a estimate.....
Reply:Originally Posted by loolagigimaybe i can aluminum stick this stuff. not sure yet.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWGive that idea up. I didn't see anything there that would be suitable for stick welding, at least from a production stand point. I could see mig as a possibility, but would need to see one up close and personal to really tell.Drawings will be a must. You are going to need all these to be exactly the same every time, and the only way is going to be to have good shop drawings and jigs. Fit and finish will be important. You're not going to be able to just chop off the hinges and reweld them because #7 won't fit up easily to part #23 you just made. It will look like crap and it will show, so chances are that piece will be junk you have to eat. I'm betting they won't really want individually made items. They will want X number of side "A" parts, X number of side "B" etc and all the "B" parts will have to be interchangeable. Good drawings and jigs will be the only way to go to make money.I have to agree with others, if some one else is already producing these, the company might simply be looking for some sucker who is willing to undercut the existing guy. I know a few people who are like that. They'll try and talk anyone who seems interested into trying to do the job for less money. Many times someone like you will only see the "cash" because they don't have the experience working on projects like this. You end up loosing your shirt because you didn't figure in things like packaging, shipping, transport, insurance, taxes, business licenses etc. The 1st 2 or 3 you make out ok on, then things like consumables start to eat into the profits, then you suddenly realize you need a new piece of equipment because something broke, and there goes more profit... The company isn't going to want to keep changing prices if they are looking to save money.I lost a pretty decent sized job last year to a kid who thought he could do the work for a lot less. The client called me a few weeks back and wants me to work on another job. Turns out the kid managed to muddle thru the 1st job, but then got himself in deep water on the 2nd one, so now I got called to come do the rest of the project. I'm 4 times the cost he is, and I take longer to do the job ( because I don't cut corners), but my the customers haven't had any issues with my quality of work. Kid just saw dollar signs. He thought he could make $5-10 more an hour vs his old job and jumped at the chance to make "real" money on his own. He never figured in all the expenses for what it really costs to do this for real. There's a good reason I cost what I do. When he started to loose his shirt, he had to try to make things work somehow, and in the end the client went back to me. Either because the kid quit, or because the job got so screwed up he no choice. I know the kid, he simply got in over his head on this because he didn't know better.
Reply:Maybe you are going about this wrong.  If they NEED someone to make up for demand.  Maybe have a talk with the current shop owner.  Maybe want to keep the job, but can't keep up.  Bid just a little bit higher.  That way the current shop keeps the job, you only have to do enough to catch up so you don't get swamped, and when you do have to work, you make some $$$.Since you're doing this part time, I would think good money for a few you can do would be better than little money for lot's you can't get done.My name's not Jim....
Reply:After watching the vid, I think 2k would be way too cheap.  I see lots of tabs, pegs, tubes, and brackets that will have to be made.  Making those little things are time killers.My name's not Jim....
Reply:You asked about bending the square tube, here's a couple of links. HF bender, the dies are sorely lacking but SWAG offroad made some big improvements. http://www.harborfreight.com/garage-...ler-99736.htmlhttp://www.swagoffroad.com/Harbor-Fr...Dies_p_51.htmlAlso pay attention to the finish on the aluminum, powder coat, anodized or raw finish.Gotta agree with Boostinjdm, looks like more than 2k in the unit.
Reply:Originally Posted by J-WYou asked about bending the square tube, here's a couple of links. HF bender, the dies are sorely lacking but SWAG offroad made some big improvements. http://www.harborfreight.com/garage-...ler-99736.htmlhttp://www.swagoffroad.com/Harbor-Fr...Dies_p_51.htmlAlso pay attention to the finish on the aluminum, powder coat, anodized or raw finish.Gotta agree with Boostinjdm, looks like more than 2k in the unit.
Reply:man ive allready spent a couple hours making drawings leaving measurements blank until i get to the job. theres a lot of work on these things, thats for sure.anybody else have an idea what they would bid this job at? just the build....
Reply:Originally Posted by loolagigianybody else have an idea what they would bid this job at? just the build....
Reply:My advice would be to ask for half up front. After watching there video, thay don't seem to me as to being very professional. Please be careful. I farm out a lot of business to local small guys, and I always ask them to ask for front money or paid on delivery.And never bring all the product at once.Good luck.
Reply:good advice guys. i havnt told them any #'s on my end yet. right now before i even went there i was thinking between $1600-$2300. it alos looks like there is a finish on the aluminum, like a powercoat or paint. hmmmm
Reply:You could always ask to take one home to verify the drawings......
Reply:Originally Posted by a1998z3You could always ask to take one home to verify the drawings......
Reply:Loo, do you know what the finished foto booth sells for?And don't forget to find out to what stage of "completeness" the company wants these.  Like you said, there's a coating on most parts, there's plexi filler panels, etc.Lincoln SA 200Esab Caddy 160Thermal Arc 201TSMiller Dialarc HFI don't like making plans for the day because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around the courtroom....
Reply:This whole thing should be made out of plastic/fibreglass IMHO.
Reply:well i went to look at it today. god a good feel from the seller. went there with my dad as he is a partner with me on this. i made up a material list tonight and am ganna get a estimate tomm. i told the customer i will need one of the booths for a lil bit. then im ganna build 2....one for him, and one for me to keep. this way i can always have one to reference by. not sure as to what price im ganna charge yet. they charge $1,000 a day for a rental.
Reply:glad you have a good feeling. Hope all goes well. Sounds like you took some of the great adivce.
Reply:Originally Posted by a1998z3glad you have a good feeling. Hope all goes well. Sounds like you took some of the great adivce.
Reply:hey guys, some of the panels....bcde have double angle. i got a quote on material today on building 2 booths.......with tax, $2,194.20. thats me buying a lil extra just in case. now i need to find a price on each box for labor.....i need help. what would you bid it? please respond fast. thank you. Joe
Reply:Did u price out the cost for bending of all the pieces that you will need.  If u are using one of the larger metal suppliers they probably offer the bending services you need and may even include a discount if you are also buying the metal from them.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:A lot of good advise from the above posters.I wouldn't touch them for less than $2K + fixtures (by the hour), & shipping.  there are a lot of bits & pieces there, and everything needs to fit properly.How many units to start?Make sure that you are not responsible for the finish!!.  That would be another $1K if you have to handle it.  Again, there are lots of bits that need to be masked.Remember that any piece that you sub out to another shop may hold you back for a week or 4...Get insured if you aren't already!Good luck & give 'em hell! Buy American, or don't whine when you end up on the bread line.
Reply:what is the sheet size, finish, and thickness of panels BCDE? material price seems high, how much extra did you buy??
Reply:bcde are angle doubled up. material will be high, its for 2 units, and i baught 4x8 sheets for stuff ill just need a 1/4 of that for one unit. so ill ahve left over. the units are powder coated. thats seperate. i will be sending him a estimate for just the material and the labor. powder coat and deliver are seperate. delivery will be easy to bid, the powder voat will have to be estimated after ones built. i want to tell him im going to build 2 units...this way i can keep one as a reference. if he dosnt like the powder coat price he can use his own guy. so 2k for just labor?    i was thinking $2200. whatcha think? he looking for about 4 units a month. ill tell him ill do 2 a month to start and go from there, as he dosnt know he will be my sole job, unless i pick up some sides.
Reply:what do you need to make hourly to get by? I remember seeing someone say materials x2 to get total, but I think that depends on how big the job is. How much time is each unit going to take?There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:i am also going to cut the plastic panels to fit. he suplies material.
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammerwhat do you need to make hourly to get by? I remember seeing someone say materials x2 to get total, but I think that depends on how big the job is. How much time is each unit going to take?
Reply:looking at all the panels and pricing them seperatly since there is more and less labor in each i came up with $2800 in labor.   them if material for 2 units is $2,194.20...i came up with $2,394.20.so.....hows this sound........for 1 unit: material, and labor only...$2800 for labor, $1197.00 for material = $3.999.00?at $2800 if it takes a week at 40 hours thats $70 an hour. if it takes a week and a half at 60 hours, thats $46.66 an hour. here in town my shop charges $65 an hour in house.Last edited by loolagigi; 10-16-2012 at 07:28 PM.
Reply:that depends on how much he sells them for.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammerthat depends on how much he sells them for.
Reply:wow, ok then. if he's making his money back in 4 days I think he's getting off just fine at $3999 a pop.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Loo,also, I don't think you need a bender here, I think you need a roller.  I hear the one from HF is ok.also too, ask for at least 1/2 of your estimate up front.  Don't be scared, it's customary.Good luck on this venture.Last edited by dubl_t; 10-16-2012 at 07:45 PM.Lincoln SA 200Esab Caddy 160Thermal Arc 201TSMiller Dialarc HFI don't like making plans for the day because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around the courtroom....
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammerwow, ok then. if he's making his money back in 4 days I think he's getting off just fine at $3999 a pop.